3059 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X 3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, : CR 96 1016(S-1) 4 v. : U.S. Courthouse 5 Uniondale, New York BRUCE W. GORDON, WHO'S WHO 6 WORLD WIDE REGISTRY, INC., : STERLING WHO'S WHO, INC., 7 TARA GARBOSKI, ORAL FRANK : OSMAN, LAURA WEITZ, ANNETTE 8 HALEY, SCOTT MICHAELSON, : STEVE RUBIN, and MARTIN 9 REFFSIN, : TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL 10 Defendants. : February 5, 1998 11 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X 9:38 o'clock a.m.
12 BEFORE:
13 HONORABLE ARTHUR D. SPATT, U.S.D.J. and a jury 14 APPEARANCES: 15 For the Government: ZACHARY W. CARTER 16 United States Attorney One Pierrepont Plaza 17 Brooklyn, New York 11201 By: RONALD G. WHITE, ESQ. 18 CECIL SCOTT, ESQ. Assistant U.S. Attorneys 19 For the Defendants: NORMAN TRABULUS, ESQ. 20 For Bruce W. Gordon 170 Old Country Road, Suite 600 21 Mineola, New York 11501
22 EDWARD P. JENKS, ESQ. For Who's Who Worldwide 23 Registry, Inc. and Sterling Who's, Who, Inc. 24 332 Willis Avenue Mineola, New York 11501 25 (cont'd)
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3060
1 APPEARANCES (cont'd):
2 GARY SCHOER, ESQ. For Tara Garboski 3 6800 Jericho Turnpike Syosset, New York 11791 4 ALAN M. NELSON, ESQ. 5 For Oral Frank Osman 3000 Marcus Avenue 6 Lake Success, New York 11042
7 WINSTON LEE, ESQ. For Laura Weitz 8 319 Broadway New York, New York 10007 9 MARTIN GEDULDIG, ESQ. 10 For Annette Haley 400 South Oyster Bay Road 11 Hicksville, New York 11801
12 JAMES C. NEVILLE, ESQ. For Scott Michaelson 13 225 Broadway New York, New York 10007 14 THOMAS F.X. DUNN, ESQ. 15 For Steve Rubin 150 Nassau Street 16 New York, New York 10038
17 JOHN S. WALLENSTEIN, ESQ. For Martin Reffsin 18 215 Hilton Avenue Hempstead, New York 11551 19
20 Court Reporters: HARRY RAPAPORT OWEN M. WICKER 21 United States District Court Two Uniondale Avenue 22 Uniondale, New York 11553 (516) 485-6558 23 24 Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript produced by Computer-Assisted Transcription 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3061
1 M O R N I N G S E S S I O N
2
3 THE CLERK: Jury entering.
4 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the
5 courtroom.)
6
7 W E N D I S P R I N G E R ,
8 called as a witness, having been previously
9 duly sworn, was examined and testified as
10 follows:
11
12 THE COURT: Good morning, members of the jury,
13 please be seated. I want to thank you for doing a valiant
14 job and getting here on time almost. Most of you did. I
15 understand that there possibly would be a delay. However,
16 we are getting started in pretty good time considering the
17 weather.
18 You may proceed.
19 MS. SCOTT: Thank you, your Honor.
20 Before I proceed, I would like to just clarify
21 the record on some of the exhibits that we entered into
22 evidence. That long list of exhibits that I read into the
23 record on Tuesday, in addition to the ones which were 24 excluded from that list, there are a few more that need to 25 be excluded. And they are 42-F as in Frank, 44-C, D and
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3062
1 E, Charley, Daniel, Edward; 49-E, F, G, Edward, Frank and
2 George. And 50-E and F. 50 Edward and Frank.
3 In addition to that, your Hon
or, I showed
4 Ms. Springer yesterday a number of exhibits that
5 Ms. Springer described as order forms. There are five in
6 which I misstated the letter of the exhibit following the
7 number, and I would like to clarify that.
8 I called one of them 21-B, as in Boy. It is
9 actually 21-C. 25-B is actually 25-C. 27-B is 27-C.
10 16-B is actually 16-C. And 38-B is 38-C, in fact.
11
12 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Cont'd)
13 BY MS. SCOTT:
14 Q Do you recall testifying yesterday about checking
15 people's qualifications before admitted to Sterling Who's
16 Who and Who's Who Worldwide?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Do you remember testifying yesterday you were
19 approximately 22 at the time?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Is that correct?
22 A No, it is not correct.
23 Q How old were you at the time? 24 A 23, going on 24. 25 Q And how much education have you
had at that time?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3063 Springer-direct/Scott
1 A I graduated high school.
2 Q Do you recall testifying that Mr. Gordon would have
3 you change titles when the title didn't qualify for
4 memberships?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Can you recall the reason that Mr. Gordon gave you
7 for instructing you to do this?
8 A In the beginning I was instructed that there was
9 going to be -- shall I rephrase it, that there should be
10 business leaders and titles. I guess it distinguishes
11 what a business leader is all about, so you had a cashier,
12 it is not going to look good with presidents, CEO, and
13 CFOs in this Registry. So we would alter the titles in
14 terms of, like I was explaining yesterday, if there was an
15 assistant vice president, they would become an associate
16 vice president.
17 Q Can you describe some of the other types of changes
18 made to people's titles?
19 A Store managers were put down as operations managers,
20 or whatever their expertise would state would be the
21 beginning of their title. If it was operations, for their
22 expertise it would become operations manager.
23 Q Now, can you tell us what -- when these types of 24 people with lesser titles were accepted into the company? 25 A It depended on the membership.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3064 Springer-direct/Scott
1 Q What do you mean by that saying it depended on the
2 membership?
3 A Basically it was a lifetime, if one of the
4 salespeople sold a lifetime membership, and sometimes the
5 price of that was as high as $1,200, the person would be
6 included into the Registry.
7 Q How now, you also mentioned, I belie
ve yesterday,
8 that it depended on sales that week; is that correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And what did you mean by that?
11 A If the sales were low, and if a person that was at
12 one time not permitted to go into the Registry because of
13 their title, you know, if -- even if it was, let's say, if
14 the person was insistent and say I want it to be listed as
15 manager, and manager only, it would be included into the
16 Registry; when other times if it was say a five-year
17 member, there were times when he would say alter the
18 title.
19 Q What did you mean when you said it depended on the
20 sales that week?
21 A If the sales were low. If the sales were low anyone
22 would be taken.
23 Q Did anyone else instruct you to make these changes? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And who would those people be?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTE
R 3065 Springer-direct/Scott
1 A Under Mr. Gordon's orders, it would be the group
2 leaders at the time.
3 Q And who did those group leaders include?
4 A There was many. One of them is Tara Green Garboski.
5 One was Frank Martin. There was a lot, quite a few.
6 From Sterling and Rob Lombert, L O M B E R T, I
7 think is the spelling and Mike Esposito, I don't know how
8 to spell his last name, but he was known as Mike Powers.
9 I would a lot of time all them on the phone and tell them
10 about members, with respect to the order forms.
11 Q Can you tell us if you know the name that Rob Lombert
12 used as a salesperson?
13 A Rob lamb.
14 Q Can you tell us specifically what Mr. Gordon said an
15 owner of a company should be called if that owner became a
16 member?
17 A They should be the president.
18 Q What reason did Mr. Gordon give
for that?
19 A Anybody can be an owner of anything. So president
20 was more of an upscale title. And that's what he wanted
21 to appear on the Registry.
22 Q And what instructions, if any, did he give you as to
23 what to do, if the customer appeared to be the only 24 employee of their business? 25 A It would become incorporated at the end.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3066 Springer-direct/Scott
1 Q What reason, if any did he give for that?
2 A So it wouldn't look like it was just one person
3 operating the company.
4 Q How often were people who were willing to pay money
5 for memberships actually rejected?
6 A I can't think of anyone who was rejected.
7 I can think of a couple, but --
8 Q The times you saw people being rejected, can you tell
9 us what their occupations were?
10 A It had nothing
to do with the occupations. It had to
11 do with the company they worked for.
12 Q What can you tell us about that?
13 A The company was affiliated with a company that he had
14 a previous suit against, or they had had a previous suit
15 against him. The company was Marqui Who's Who. They were
16 a competitor. And at one time, I assume he was going
17 through a CD-ROM, and he came across -- you were able to
18 punch in the name, and it would show you whoever it was
19 that was listed in that company. And I believe the
20 company was Reed Publishing. I am not sure if it was
21 listed as Reed Publishing, but it was a company in New
22 Jersey. But he wanted them and demanded that the orders
23 be pulled. There were probably about eight or nine 24 people. And he had two or three people assigned to it, to 25 figure out why they were let in. And he refunded the
HA
RRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3067 Springer-direct/Scott
1 money. He didn't want them to be in the Registry. He
2 wanted them out.
3 Q Did you ever see people get accepted for membership
4 whom you feel were not qualified?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Can you tell us an example of those people?
7 A There was a slaughterhouse which is one, where -- an
8 owner of a slaughterhouse in the Midwest. And I felt it
9 was totally inappropriate to have someone in there who
10 slaughtered animals. It is not something -- if I was in a
11 Registry, and there are people out there into animal
12 activism as I am, I would be appalled that someone would
13 be included like that.
14 Q Can you tell us other instances of people you feel
15 were not appropriate for the Registry?
16 A There was a beauty salon manager of Macy's or Saks
17 Fifth Avenue, one o
f the upscale stores.
18 Q Can you tell us any others?
19 A There was a restaurant manager from McDonald's who
20 was a manager. There were teachers, priests, quite a few.
21 Q Were people ever accepted as members who were not
22 paid -- did not pay to be accepted?
23 A No. 24 Q Were people listed in the book like that, without 25 paying?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3068 Springer-direct/Scott
1 A Yes.
2 Q Can you give us an example of what you mean there.
3 A There was some high celebrity forms of people.
4 Barbara Walters was one of them, I remember. There was
5 Lee Iacoca,. There was a couple. Quite a few.
6 Q Had these well known people agreed to become members
7 in Who's Who Worldwide or Sterling Who's Who?
8 A To my knowledge.
9 MR. LEE: Objection.
10 THE COURT: What is the nature of
the objection?
11 MR. TRABULUS: Foundation, your Honor.
12 THE COURT: You say that these celebrities were
13 listed who did not pay?
14 THE WITNESS: They did not pay, and they were not
15 notified they were going to be in the registry.
16 THE COURT: How do you know that?
17 THE WITNESS: I was instructed by Bruce Gordon to
18 put them into the Registry.
19 One of the high up ones was Colin Powell. He sat
20 behind me at my desk and instructed me how his listing
21 should be put into the Registry or into the database.
22 THE COURT: How do you know they didn't apply for
23 membership or pay? 24 THE WITNESS: Because the order form would have 25 been attached to it.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3069 Springer-direct/Scott
1 THE COURT: Did you find an order form?
2 THE WITNESS: There was no order form an
d no
3 card.
4 THE COURT: Overruled.
5 Q Can you give us any other examples of such
6 celebrities?
7 A There was Marsha Mason, but she was legitimate. She
8 did fill out some kind of a lead card, or sent in, or she
9 could have called, I am not sure.
10 Q What if any celebrities did you personally input into
11 the system?
12 A I pout in Colin Powell. I put in the CEO of IBM. I
13 didn't put in Barbara Walters. There was Boris Yeltsin
14 who I didn't put in. Liz Sautter was asked to do that.
15 Lee Iacoca.
16 Q Who asked you to put these people into the
17 membership?
18 A Mr. Gordon.
19 Q Now, under what circumstances would he ask you to
20 admit such people?
21 A Repeat the question?
22 Q Under what circumstances would he ask you to admit a
23 famous person in this manner? 24 MR. JENKS: Objection. 25 THE
COURT: Overruled.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3070 Springer-direct/Scott
1 A He instructed me, or stood behind me while I was at
2 my computer and would tell me to list the information.
3 Q Now, what happened when Lee Iacoca's name was put
4 into the Registry?
5 A There was a phone call that came in, I don't know if
6 it was his personal secretary, spokesperson, whoever it
7 might be, who was irate of the fact that this person --
8 MR. SCHOER: Objection.
9 MR. JENKS: Objection.
10 THE COURT: Yes.
11 Sustained. That answer is stricken. The jury is
12 instructed to disregard it.
13 Q Ms. Springer, after Mr. Iacoca was admitted as an
14 entry, did you receive any further instructions with
15 respect to his entry?
16 A To take it out of the database.
17 Q Who did you receive those instructions from?<
BR> 18 A Mr. Gordon.
19 Q Did Mr. Gordon give you any reasons for that?
20 A Not that I can recall.
21 Q When a customer submitted a lead card, what if any
22 efforts were taken to verify the information with respect
23 to what is on the lead card? 24 MR. TRABULUS: Objection. Foundation, your 25 Honor.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3071 Springer-direct/Scott
1 THE COURT: Are you familiar with what efforts,
2 if any were made to use the lead cards after they were
3 received?
4 THE WITNESS: Absolutely.
5 THE COURT: Overruled.
6 THE WITNESS: The only communication that went on
7 to verify any type of verification of the legitimacy of
8 the person who filled out the card was through the
9 salesperson, through the telemarketer. I did not
10 personally get on the phone and verify the information.
11 Ms. Green did not get on the phone and verify the
12 information. Nor did any of the group leaders.
13 Q Was there a board of governors at the company?
14 A No, there was not.
15 Q Was there a board of public affairs?
16 A No. There was a public relations department.
17 Q Were those people in charge of examining people's
18 qualifications to determine if they should be granted
19 membership?
20 A No.
21 Q Did you ever meet anyone on the company who said they
22 were on the board of governors or board of review?
23 A No. 24 Q Were you aware of any meetings held at the company to 25 go over people's qualifications and decide as to whether
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3072 Springer-direct/Scott
1 they are qualified for membership?
2 A No.
3 Q Did anybody other than yourself regularly review
4 customers' qualifications before they were entered into
5 the company's membership?
6 A No.
7 MR. TRABULUS: Objection. Foundation.
8 THE COURT: Do you know whether anyone else other
9 than you reviewed the qualifications of members?
10 THE WITNESS: There was no one.
11 THE COURT: Overruled.
12 Q Was this the case at both Who's Who Worldwide and
13 Sterling Who's Who?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Were there --
16 A I would like to comment.
17 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor.
18 THE COURT: Sustained.
19 Please don't comment. Listen to the question,
20 please.
21 THE WITNESS: I am elaborating on the question.
22 THE COURT: The last question?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, which is do I know if people 24 from either one of the companies -- 25 THE COURT: All right, you may.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REP
ORTER 3073 Springer-direct/Scott
1 THE WITNESS: Okay.
2 I wasn't physically at Sterling Who's Who, so I
3 cannot tell you if they called them. But considering the
4 fact that there were only two group leaders, and sometimes
5 there was three, there was no physically, or possible way
6 within an eight hour period of the day that they can call
7 the thousand of lead cards that were distributed for the
8 telemarketers. There is just no way you could do it.
9 Q Were there any written criteria you used when
10 reviewing customer qualifications?
11 A No.
12 Q When determining as to whether a person is qualified,
13 did you have any other information about them aside from
14 their title and the company they are working for?
15 A They occasionally sent in resumes.
16 Q How often did that happen?
17 A Some people would send them in. I can't tell yo
u on
18 tell you on a scale how many. There were some people who
19 sent them in.
20 Q Now what -- withdrawn.
21 Now, do you recall testifying that once a person
22 is cleared for entry into the membership system, that
23 their names were then submitted to the data entry people? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And do you remember testifying that the data entry
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3074 Springer-direct/Scott
1 people would furnish you invoices?
2 A Yes.
3 Q What would happen to those invoices at that point?
4 A They were checked for accuracy, to make sure that the
5 data entry, whoever was, you know, processing the orders,
6 didn't make a mistake.
7 Q And who checked these invoices for accuracy?
8 A I usually did.
9 Q What happened to the invoices after that?
10 A The ones with mistakes on them were
fixed by the
11 person who made the, you know, spelling, typographical
12 error. The rest were bundled up. They were all bundled
13 up eventually and put in the back for filing.
14 Q Were they sent out?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Who were they sent to?
17 A They were sent to the customers.
18 Q What, if any, information, was provided with the
19 invoice to the customer?
20 A There was times when we had brochures, there were
21 brochures to show what the wall plaque would look like.
22 In the brochure they had a picture of the Registry. There
23 was literature. I can't say that I sat there and went 24 through every piece of it. I didn't. I think one time we 25 had a nomination ballot. That was at the latter part of
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3075 Springer-direct/Scott
1 my employment it was toward the end, maybe the
last seven,
2 eight months, of my employment. It was before the company
3 was shut down.
4 Q I will get to the nominate ballot in a minute.
5 How were customers informed as to what
6 information about them would appear on the -- in the
7 Registry?
8 A It was right on the invoice.
9 Q And did the invoice indicate if any changes had been
10 made to the customer's title?
11 A Sure.
12 Q So, how did customers react to changes like that?
13 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.
14 MR. JENKS: Objection.
15 THE COURT: Sustained.
16 Q Were you ever instructed to make any changes pursuant
17 to a customer's request.
18 A If the person changed --
19 MR. JENKS: Objection.
20 THE COURT: What ground?
21 MR. JENKS: The question calls for a yes or no
22 answer. Were you ever instructed to make any changes to a
23 customer? 24 THE COU
RT: You are quite right, Mr. Jenks. 25 Were you ever instructed to make changes when a
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3076 Springer-direct/Scott
1 customer saw the invoice?
2 THE WITNESS: I was instructed.
3 Q And what instructions did you receive?
4 MR. DUNN: Objection, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Who did you get the instructions
6 from?
7 THE WITNESS: Mr. Gordon.
8 THE COURT: Overruled.
9 Q What instructions did Mr. Gordon give you?
10 A We have the right to edit. And if they put down that
11 they wanted their title to remain assistant vice
12 president, because that is what their title was, I was not
13 to change it. We had the right to edit.
14 THE COURT: I don't understand.
15 Mr. Gordon said you should continue to make the
16 changes, or if a customer --
17 THE WITNESS: No, I wasn't --
18 THE COURT: If a customer complained, what would
19 you do?
20 THE WITNESS: If the customer complained I
21 wouldn't speak there -- sit there and speak to them about
22 it. It would be passed on to one of the group leaders.
23 THE COURT: You don't know what happened, whether 24 the name was put back in the original form or the changed 25 form?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3077 Springer-direct/Scott
1 THE WITNESS: There were times that they were
2 changed, because the customer was irate and they were
3 cancelled. So there were times. If Ms. Green or whoever
4 the group leader was explained to them, we have a right to
5 edit, and we have a certain criteria, and the Registry is
6 formatted in a certain way, the customers, some of them
7 would understand. A lot of them would not.
8 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your
Honor, how is
9 there foundation for this, unless she testified she
10 listened in on a conversation with Ms. Green, or
11 Ms. Garboski, whoever she is referring to?
12 THE COURT: Did you hear this, did you hear
13 Ms. Green say this to the customer?
14 THE WITNESS: That we have the right to edit,
15 yes.
16 THE COURT: Overruled.
17 Q Did you ever see invoices that had customer requested
18 changes on them?
19 THE WITNESS: I am sorry, I was a little
20 disturbed about the way the gentleman was looking at me,
21 and shaking his head. Can you repeat that?
22 MR. JENKS: I would ask that be stricken from the
23 record. 24 THE COURT: Sustained. 25 The jury will strike it.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3078 Springer-direct/Scott
1 THE WITNESS: I apologize, but --
2 THE COURT: Excuse me,
when I speak, please do
3 not speak at the same time.
4 That comment is stricken. You are to disregard.
5 Q Did you ever receive invoices from customers that had
6 suggested changes on them?
7 A Yes, I did.
8 Q And did such suggested changes ever involve their
9 titles?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And what did you do in those situations when the
12 customer wanted a change in the title?
13 A They would be passed on like I was explaining
14 before. It would be passed on to the group leader. I
15 would not take it upon myself.
16 If it was an associate -- as I was explaining, an
17 associate vice president, that's how we listed it. If
18 they changed it back to assistant, I was instructed to
19 ignore the change, which I did.
20 Q And who gave you those instructions?
21 A Mr. Gordon.
22 Q You mentioned nomination ballots just a moment ago.
23 Do you recall that? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Can you tell us when you first saw nomination ballots
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3079 Springer-direct/Scott
1 first used at the company, at Who's Who Worldwide?
2 A I would say '94.
3 Q How is it you remember that?
4 A It was a different color card. It was a gray card.
5 Q And what were these ballots used for?
6 A They were sent with the invoice to the customer. And
7 some of them would send them back nominating, you know,
8 one of their peers, or whoever, you know, was worthy of
9 being in the Registry. They had to have found something,
10 you know, and a person who wanted them to be in the
11 Registry.
12 Q To your knowledge were such ballots ever used by
13 customers to nominate other people?
14 A Yes, they were.
15 Q Now, before that time -- withdrawn.
16 Before that time how often had new members been
17 admitted who were nominated by established members?
18 A Before the actual cards were created?
19 Q Before the nomination cards were created?
20 A I am sure there was a couple. I can't think of how
21 many. There was, I am sure a few.
22 Q After the nomination ballots came into use, how often
23 were new members admitted who had been nominated by 24 established members? 25 A There was, you know, a selective amount. I can't
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3080 Springer-direct/Scott
1 tell you that there was a hundred or fifty or three
2 thousand. There was a considerable amount, but I did see
3 the cards attached to the order forms.
4 Q Turning to another subject.
5 What, if anything, did Bruce Gordon or the group
6 leaders do to keep track of the way sales
people sold
7 memberships over the telephone?
8 A There was a sales sheet.
9 THE COURT: Hold it a moment, please.
10 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
11 proceedings.)
12 THE COURT: You may proceed.
13 Q You mentioned a sales sheet. What is a sales sheet?
14 A It is used to record the daily sales.
15 Q What, if anything, did Bruce Gordon and the group
16 leaders do to keep track as to what salespeople were
17 saying to customers over the telephone?
18 A Phone calls were monitored.
19 Q How were these phone calls monitored?
20 A Through a device in their telephone.
21 Q What kind of device is that?
22 A I am not sure exactly. They had -- the phone system
23 they had, you were able to -- there was a button you could 24 push, and I would say a code, I can't remember exactly 25 what it was.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR,
CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3081 Springer-direct/Scott
1 MR. SCHOER: Objection. She seems to be
2 guessing, Judge.
3 THE COURT: You say the phone calls were
4 monitored.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, they were.
6 THE COURT: How do you know that?
7 THE WITNESS: I was there while Ms. Green was
8 listening to phone calls. I was there --
9 THE COURT: What did you see? If you looked at
10 the phone, is there something attached to the phone?
11 THE WITNESS: There was a recorder of some type.
12 THE COURT: You saw it physically?
13 THE WITNESS: I saw -- at one time there was one
14 telemarketer they were watching closely. They played the
15 tape back to the salespeople. Usually it was the new
16 people that had started. They listened to them more
17 frequently than the established telemarketers that were
18 there for a long period of time.
19 THE COURT: My question is: Did you see what
20 device was used?
21 THE WITNESS: There was a microphone -- I am
22 sorry, a tape recorder.
23 THE COURT: Was it physically located on the 24 phone, under the phone, in the floor? In the ceiling? 25 THE WITNESS: It was on her desk.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3082 Springer-direct/Scott
1 THE COURT: Apart from the phone?
2 THE WITNESS: I don't remember looking. I
3 remember hearing the tape going. I remember walking in
4 there and handing her orders for her to hand back to the
5 salespeople. And I remember hearing her say to me that
6 she was listening to them, be quiet, sh sh.
7 THE COURT: Who is she?
8 THE WITNESS: Tara Green.
9 Q Did you ever use the equipment?
10 A Yes, I did.
11 Q On what occasion?
12 A It is a long story. I don't
know if you want me to
13 get into it.
14 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, if they are going to
15 do this, can we have an offer of proof at the bench? The
16 response suggests to me we may be on something that is
17 irrelevant.
18 THE COURT: Are you going to pursue this?
19 MS. SCOTT: We will skip this, your Honor.
20 Q Did you ever hear anybody at the company talk about
21 the use of this telephone monitoring system?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Who did you hear talk about it? 24 A I would hear the group leaders talk about it. 25 Q Specifically who did you hear?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3083 Springer-direct/Scott
1 A I heard Ms. Green speak about it.
2 Q Did you ever hear Mr. Gordon speaking about it?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Now, do you remember any particular incidents in
5 which you heard them speaking about it?
6 A Yes, I do.
7 Q And can you tell us about those?
8 A There was a phone call that was asked to be made by
9 Ms. Green by Mr. Gordon. He had wanted them to call up a
10 competitor of Who's Who and try to get information. She
11 was pretending that she was a customer interested in a
12 membership in there --
13 MR. SCHOER: Objection.
14 THE COURT: Yes. Sustained.
15 MR. SCHOER: I ask it be stricken.
16 THE COURT: Motion granted. It is stricken. The
17 jury is instructed to disregard it.
18 Q Ms. Springer, can you tell us what you heard the two
19 people at Who's Who Worldwide saying?
20 MR. SCHOER: Objection.
21 THE COURT: Is this about talking to a
22 competitor? Is this about calling a competitor?
23 MS. SCOTT: No. I believe it is about another 24 employee who was being monitored. 25 Q Is that correct, Ms. Springer?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3084 Springer-direct/Scott
1 A Are you referring to the one where I heard Rob Lamb?
2 Q Yes.
3 THE COURT: This talk about monitoring or calling
4 a competitor is stricken. You are to disregard that.
5 Q Did you ever hear anyone speaking about a specific
6 salesperson's performance that they had monitored over the
7 telephone?
8 A I had heard conversation between the group leaders,
9 Ms. Green, with telemarketers, telling them that -- what
10 they were saying was not the correct statement of the
11 pitch, they are not following the pitch.
12 Q What, if anything, did they say would happen to
13 somebody that would not follow the pitch?
14 A They would be fired.
15 Q Were you ever aware of anybody getting fired from the
16 company?
17 A I can't mention names. I can't remember names. Bu
t
18 there were people. As I explained a couple of days ago.
19 There were at least four or five hundred people in my
20 duration during my employment that were fired or left the
21 company. So I can't remember names.
22 Q Turning your attention to another subject, do you
23 know a person by the name of Martin Graham or Martin 24 Gross? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3085 Springer-direct/Scott
1 Q How do you know him?
2 A He worked at the company.
3 Q In what capacity?
4 A He was a telemarketer.
5 Q Did there come a time that he was arrested?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And when was that?
8 A I don't remember the date.
9 Q Was it a few years ago, a few months ago?
10 A I don't know if it was in '92, '93. I don't
11 remember.
12 Actually, I am sorry, it would have been in '92,
13 possibly.
14 MR. NELSON: Objection, your Honor. Can we have
15 a sidebar for a moment on this issue?
16 THE COURT: All right, come up.
17
18 (Whereupon, at this time the following took place
19 at the sidebar.)
20 MR. NELSON: Your Honor, based upon the testimony
21 elicited during the pretrial hearings, we are aware of the
22 fact that Mr. Gross, Mr. Graham, was an employee of West
23 previously, and apparently this arrest had to do with West 24 Publications. 25 THE COURT: Anything to do with this case?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3086 Springer-direct/Scott
1 MR. TRABULUS: Nothing at all.
2 MR. NELSON: Nothing at all.
3 He subsequently became an employee of Who's Who
4 Worldwide.
5 MR. WHITE: Not correct. He was an employee at
6 Who's Who when he was arrested. That's the arrest
she is
7 talking about.
8 THE COURT: What does it have to do with this
9 case.
10 MR. WHITE: We were going to get to it.
11 MS. SCOTT: There is going to be testimony that
12 at the time Bruce Gordon, Liz Sautter -- he instructed
13 them while the agents were there arresting him, they
14 should take the pitch sheets away.
15 THE COURT: I will let you bring out that federal
16 agents came on an unrelated matter, and at that time what
17 did you see with respect to the pitch sheets. Don't get
18 into the arrest of Graham. It has nothing to do with
19 this.
20 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, can she testify that
21 Ms. Sautter, Mr. Gordon's assistant notified Mr. Gordon,
22 who instructed her to take down the pitch sheets?
23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 MR. NELSON: Your Honor, under 801, there is no 25 proof of the admissions of an assistant.
H
ARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3087 Springer-direct/Scott
1 THE COURT: There are also admissions by
2 corporate employees.
3 Overruled.
4
5 (Whereupon, at this time the following takes
6 place in open court.)
7 Q Now, where were you at the time of this arrest?
8 A I was in the office.
9 THE COURT: Before you go any further.
10 This arrest has nothing to do with any of the
11 facts in this case. It is immaterial, irrelevant, and you
12 are not to consider it in any way, except as to what
13 occurred thereafter.
14 The fact that this employee was arrested has
15 nothing to do with this case.
16 Please continue.
17 Q Now, what did you and Liz Sautter do when this arrest
18 occurred?
19 A We were instructed to take down the pitches that were
20 in the salespeople's cubicles.
21 Q Who inst
ructed you to do that?
22 A Liz.
23 Q And where did Ms. Sautter say these instructions came 24 from? 25 A Bruce Gordon.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3088 Springer-direct/Scott
1 Q What was the reason given for taking the pitch sheets
2 down from the salespersons' cubicles?
3 A These were government agents. I don't know exactly
4 why --
5 MR. DUNN: Objection, your Honor, to the
6 question, if she doesn't know why.
7 THE COURT: That's an answer. Why are you
8 objecting to it?
9 Q Where were the agents at the time -- withdrawn.
10 Did you comply with this instruction?
11 A Yes, I did.
12 Q You walked around the office and took down pitch
13 sheets?
14 A I ran around the office and took down pitch sheets.
15 Q Where were the government agents at the time you were
16 doing thi
s?
17 A They were on their way into the cafeteria. There was
18 a cafeteria in the building, to get Mr. Graham.
19 Mr. Graham would go in there in the morning and sit and
20 read the newspaper.
21 Q Were they in the same room you were in when you were
22 taking the pitch sheets down?
23 A No, they were not. 24 Q Do you recall testifying about the use of fictitious 25 names by salespeople at the company?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3089 Springer-direct/Scott
1 A Yes.
2 Q Under what circumstances were fictitious names used?
3 A For ethnic purposes.
4 Q What do you mean by that?
5 A If you have a Samuel Bernstein, it would be, you
6 know, known that the person was of the Jewish faith. If
7 they were going to be talking to people throughout the
8 country, they didn't know what their -- there could be<
BR> 9 people who didn't particularly care for Jews. If the
10 person's name was Rashid Williams, the person may not
11 particularly care for African American individuals and
12 they could be prejudiced. So they used names not to give
13 away their ethnic background.
14 Q And it was this use of fictitious names pursuant to
15 anyone's instructions?
16 A They were given names. When they joined the company
17 they were given names.
18 Some of the individual's names were okay to use,
19 so they wouldn't be changed.
20 Q Do you recall who gave them these names to use?
21 A The group leaders would.
22 Q Do you recall testifying about sales quotas?
23 A Yes. 24 Q Can you explain what that was? 25 A They had to meet a certain amount of orders written
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3090 Springer-direct/Scott
1 within an eight-week period.
2 Q When you say "they" who are you referring to?
3 A The telemarketers.
4 Q Do you recall the number of sales they were required
5 to make each week?
6 A I wouldn't know that.
7 MS. SCOTT: Thank you. No further questions.
8 Thank you, Ms. Springer.
9 THE COURT: Cross-examination.
10 MR. TRABULUS: Yes, thank you.
11
12 CROSS-EXAMINATION
13 BY MR. TRABULUS:
14 Q Good morning.
15 I am Bruce Gordon's lawyer.
16 You don't particularly like him, do you?
17 A Do I particularly like him? I have nothing against
18 the man, no.
19 Q Nothing at all?
20 You used to work for the man?
21 A Yes.
22 Q He was a very busy man, was he not?
23 A He was busy. 24 Q You testified a couple of days ago before the jury he 25 was pretty busy?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, C
M OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3091 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 A He was busy, yes.
2 Q You asked about a conversation --
3 THE COURT: Mr. Trabulus, you are starting to
4 pick up steam again. And as you are walking forward you
5 get faster. It seems that that is a motivating factor.
6 So, you are talking rapidly. The witness is answering
7 just as rapidly. Between the two of them I don't hear
8 half of what you are saying.
9 Of course, the jurors have no such problem.
10 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you, your Honor. I will
11 slow down.
12 THE COURT: But I do.
13 Q Ms. Springer, you worked for four years
14 approximately?
15 A A little over four years.
16 Q You worked hard?
17 A I worked extremely hard.
18 Q You took stuff home, right?
19 A Yes, I did sometimes.
20 Q You worked on weekends?
21 A I worked on weekends, ma
ny, many times.
22 Q As far as you know Mr. Gordon regarded you as a good
23 employee; is that correct? 24 A Yes, I would hope so. 25 Q And it is your testimony that as he supposedly gave
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3092 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 you the names of Lee Iacoca, Colin Powell, Barbara Walters
2 he had to stand right behind you to make sure you would do
3 that; is that correct?
4 A No, he would stand behind me --
5 Q Is that where he normally stood?
6 A Did he usually watch over me? No.
7 Q Is it your testimony that the name of Colin Powell is
8 in any one of those directories?
9 A Is it in the directory?
10 Q Is it in the directory?
11 A I believe it is so.
12 Q I am showing you P and Q.
13 Can you find it?
14 While you are looking for Colin Powell, would you
15 look
for Lee Iacoca. Was he in there, too?
16 A As I explained before when he were instructed to take
17 him out of the database so he is not in the Registry.
18 Q Were you aware of situations where people were
19 offered complimentary memberships, famous people?
20 A Not that I know of.
21 Q If someone was offered a complimentary membership and
22 declined it, is that the reason at one point the name was
23 not given in the -- 24 A Repeat it, slower. 25 THE COURT: Slow down, Mr. Trabulus, please.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3093 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 MR. TRABULUS: Sorry.
2 Q If someone was offered a complimentary membership, a
3 famous person and declined it. Is that the reason why you
4 might have heard a name and the name might not be in the
5 book? Yes or no, madam?
6 A I couldn't answer that.
7 Q Find Colin Powell's name.
8 THE COURT: Excuse me. Before you go further.
9 You are going to be asked a lot of questions
10 calling for a yes or no. If you don't remember, say so.
11 If you can't answer yes or no, say I can't answer the
12 question yes or no, as you just did. You understand?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes.
14 THE COURT: Don't make explanations. If it calls
15 for a yes or no, answer yes or no or say you can't answer
16 yes or no.
17 You understand that?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
19 THE COURT: What was the question, Mr. Trabulus.
20 Q Find Colin Powell's name in there.
21 A Okay, I found it.
22 Q Now, do you know for a fact that Colin Powell did not
23 want his name in there? Did you speak to Colin Powell? 24 A I did not personally speak with him, no. 25 Q Is there anything inaccurate about the entry there
HARRY RAPAPORT,
CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3094 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 for him?
2 MR. WHITE: Can we have a reference as to what
3 exhibit and page we are talking about?
4 MR. TRABULUS: P.
5 THE COURT: Is it P for Peter?
6 MR. TRABULUS: P as in Peter, I believe.
7 MR. WHITE: Page?
8 MR. TRABULUS: 657, five year members.
9 Q Anything inaccurate about the entry there?
10 A I would say there is one thing.
11 Q A fact about Colin Powell that is inaccurate?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Was he the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff of
14 the U.S. military?
15 A I would assume, yes.
16 Q Was his office at the Pentagon in Washington, D.C.?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Was his business, U.S. military?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Defense?
21 A Uh-huh, yes.
22 Q Expertise, general management?
23 A That's where -- if someone -- if he wasn't
spoken to, 24 how could you determine his management? 25 Q Do you know personally for a fact as to whether he
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3095 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 was spoken to? Were you listening to all of the
2 salespeople as they were making all of the calls?
3 A No.
4 Q Now, let me ask you this: This book has a section,
5 five year members; is that correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And it had a more -- has a more prestigious section
8 called lifetime members; is that correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q If someone was going to take Colin Powell, would they
11 not put him into the most prestigious section? Yes or no,
12 madam?
13 A I wouldn't know if they would or would not.
14 Q Did you say that Boris Yeltsin's name was in those
15 books?
16 A What I said --
17 Q Yes or no, did you say that?
18 A No, I didn't say that.
19 Q You said you heard some conversation about someone
20 putting Boris Yeltsin in there?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Is Boris Yeltsin's name in any of those books? Yes
23 or no, madam? 24 A I would not know. 25 Q Would you look to find out.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3096 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 A Sure.
2 THE COURT: Is he in the back? Does anybody
3 know? Has anybody looked?
4 MR. TRABULUS: I don't believe he is in there.
5 THE COURT: You say he is not in there.
6 How about you?
7 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I don't believe he is.
8 THE COURT: You don't believe he is.
9 MR. WHITE: I don't want to be testifying.
10 THE COURT: We don't want to sit here while we go
11 through 400 pages. If he is not in there, let's say he is
12 not in there.
13 MR. WHI
TE: My answer is the same, I don't
14 believe he is in there.
15 THE COURT: You don't know?
16 MR. WHITE: I can't say precisely.
17 THE COURT: Okay, go through the whole book.
18 MR. TRABULUS: She doesn't have to go through the
19 whole book. It is basically alphabetical, your Honor.
20 THE COURT: All right.
21 THE WITNESS: It is not in this Registry.
22 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit P for Peter, is
23 that what that is? 24 MR. TRABULUS: Yes. 25 The next one is Q.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3097 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
2 proceedings.)
3 THE WITNESS: I don't see it in here.
4 Q Were you aware that there was a president of a
5 Russian republic known as Kalmykia put in the book?
6 A We had Russian people in the book, yes.
7 Q Wer
e you aware he was a member?
8 A I am not aware he was a member.
9 Q Were you aware he came to the offices of Sterling?
10 A I was not in Sterling, so, I did not know.
11 Q You testified at some point you yourself used the
12 monitoring system, yes or no?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Did someone instruct you to do that or you did it on
15 your own?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Someone instructed you to do it?
18 A Uh-huh.
19 Q For business purposes?
20 A Not for business purposes.
21 Q Now, you testified that Mr. Gordon told you to change
22 assistance vice president to associate; is that correct?
23 A That's correct. 24 Q And he told you to ignore it if the members were 25 unsatisfied; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3098 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes.
2 Q Did you also testify that
Mr. Gordon did not like the
3 word "owner"?
4 A That is correct.
5 Q And did you also testify he did not like the word
6 "manager" standing alone?
7 A That is correct.
8 Q As far as you know, are there no entries in the books
9 that say owner?
10 A There are.
11 Q Are there over 4,000 entries in the books that say
12 owner?
13 A I have not counted them. I would not know.
14 Q Would it surprise you if there were over 4,000 that
15 say owner?
16 A Yes, it would.
17 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I am putting
18 Defendant's Exhibit S into the CD-ROM drive.
19 Q You testified you were familiar with the CD-ROM, were
20 you not?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Did you ever utilize the CD-ROM yourself?
23 A Did I work it? 24 Q Yes, did you work it? 25 A Yes, I did.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3099 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 Q You are familiar with the system; is that correct?
2 A Yes, I am.
3 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
4 proceedings.)
5 Q Do you recognize what is coming on the screen as to
6 what you used when you -- you see when you use the CD-ROM
7 system?
8 A It looks like it.
9 Q You recognize the screen as various things you can
10 put into the system?
11 A Yes.
12 Q One of them is titles?
13 A Yes.
14 Q As you understand the system, if you put in the words
15 owner and title, you would get a listing of the people
16 with the word "owner" as part of the title?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Would you please type in the word "owner" where the
19 title is?
20 A Yes.
21 Q You know how to do a search for an owner?
22 A I never used a laptop.
23 Q Well, do you know wh
at button, what window to push or 24 whatever that thing is, the one that has the sigma? Would 25 that do it?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3100 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 A I don't remember. I have not been on one of these
2 for four plus years.
3 Q Well, I am pushing that button.
4 There are numbers -- there is a number appearing
5 next to the words owner, is that a listing of the words
6 with owner in it?
7 A Yes.
8 Q What is the number?
9 A 4,601.
10 Q Now, we are obviously not going to look at all of
11 them. But that's the first page.
12 Do you want to pick any one of those and look in
13 the book, either of these two books?
14 Pick a name?
15 A Aaron.
16 Q The first one, right?
17 A Not in this one.
18 Q Not in the lifetime members there. Check the next
19 p
ortion.
20 MR. WHITE: I didn't hear what we are looking
21 for?
22 MR. TRABULUS: Harriet Aaron.
23 MR. WHITE: A A R O N? 24 THE WITNESS: Not in this one either, not a five 25 year? A three year member.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3101 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Read that entry for Harriet Aaron?
2 A Aaron and Associates, Software and Systems.
3 Q I asked you to read the entry for Aaron, Harriet E;
4 is that correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q You read it as Aaron and Associates, Software and
7 Systems; is that correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Was there a word before the word Aaron and Associate
10 Software and Systems?
11 A Owner.
12 Q You didn't see that?
13 A What do you mean?
14 Q You didn't read that to the jury, did you, the word
15 owner?
16 A I can't remember if I did o
r I didn't.
17 Q Leaving this CD-ROM for a minute, but do you notice
18 the top entry on this page?
19 A Rita Reiger.
20 Q Rita Reiger?
21 A Yes.
22 Q What is the entry immediately below Rita Reiger's,
23 what is the title of the person shown there? 24 A Assistant vice president. 25 Q Assistant; is that right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3102 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes, assistant.
2 Q Do you want to now do a search for the people who
3 have assistant in their title?
4 What is the number?
5 A 431.
6 Q While we are on this page with Rita Reiger, how many
7 people here are listed as president?
8 A On the whole page you are talking about?
9 Q Right.
10 A On that one page there are 12.
11 Q From your testimony you claim there were changes from
12 assistant vice
president to associate vice president; is
13 that correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q You don't claim there were any changes from assistant
16 or associate vice president to president, do you?
17 A Not that I can recall.
18 Q As far as you can recall anyone listed as president
19 would indeed be a president; is that correct?
20 A I would say they would be, yes.
21 Q Now, I am going to show you in Defendant's Exhibit P,
22 page 981, I will show you an entry for a Jack Heinbaugh on
23 it; is that correct? 24 A Yes. 25 Q There is also another entry for an assistant vice
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3103 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 president; is that correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And an entry for an owner?
4 A Yep.
5 Q An owner and founder?
6 A Yep.
7 Q Now, is it your testimony that there are no
entries
8 in the book whatsoever that simply say manager?
9 A That is not correct. There are.
10 Q There are, okay, so we can agree on that.
11 It is your testimony there was no public affairs
12 office at Who's Who Worldwide?
13 A There was a public relations department.
14 Q Did you yourself sometimes refer to that as a public
15 affairs office?
16 A Personally, no.
17 Q Do you recall giving testimony at a deposition in a
18 civil case involving Reed Elsevir Company?
19 A Against who?
20 Q Reed Elsevir against Who's Who Worldwide?
21 A Okay.
22 Q Do you recall being asked these questions and giving
23 this answer -- this question and this answer, page 5, and 24 we are talking about -- we are talking about 3500-15-A -- 25 H, hard to read on my document.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3104 Spring
er-cross/Trabulus
1 MR. LEE: What page?
2 MR. TRABULUS: Five.
3 Answer: I am in the public affairs office,
4 administration, I do the editing in the registry, clerical
5 duties, as well as supervising the orders, which the
6 associate directors write, to make sure that the
7 information is accurately put into the Registry, and that
8 our members are made happy because of the way they are
9 going to be listed.
10 Do you recall being asked that question and
11 giving that answer?
12 A Yes, I do.
13 Q And was part of your way -- withdrawn.
14 Part of it -- withdrawn.
15 Your testimony then was you were in the public
16 affairs office; is that correct? Yes or no?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And in terms of your responsibility for making
19 members happy, did that include disregarding their
20 instructions to change their titles?
21 A R
epeat the question.
22 Q You testified that part of your duties were to make
23 members happy; is that correct? 24 A That is correct. 25 Q And did that include disregarding their instructions
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3105 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 to change their titles when a mistake had been made in a
2 title? Do you understand my question?
3 A Not exactly.
4 Q Well, then I will say it again and make it more
5 simple.
6 You testified that Mr. Gordon told you to
7 disregard it if a customer or a member called up and said,
8 I don't like the way you are listing me, I want to be
9 listed in another way?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q That's what you testified to; is that correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Is that part of your duties of making customers
14 happy? Yes or no?
15 A No.
16
Q Now, you are prepared to acknowledge today that there
17 were assistant vice presidents who were listed in the
18 book; is that correct?
19 A That is correct.
20 Q Under that title; is that right?
21 A That is correct.
22 Q And before coming here today, and before I showed you
23 that, had you discussed that with either Ms. Scott or 24 Mr. White? 25 A I had informed them of that.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3106 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 Q You informed them of that.
2 When was the first time you informed them that
3 there were indeed assistant vice presidents listed in the
4 book?
5 A When I first started, we didn't have memberships.
6 There was anybody and anyone --
7 MR. TRABULUS: Motion to strike.
8 Q When you say we first started; you are talking
9 about --
10 MR. TRABULUS
: I am sorry, your Honor, I made a
11 motion to strike and I kept on talking.
12 THE COURT: I will not stop you any more. I
13 assume when you say motion to strike and then proceed to
14 the next question, you rescinded your motion. Did you?
15 MR. TRABULUS: No.
16 THE COURT: Your motion is granted. The answer
17 is stricken. The jury is instructed to disregard it.
18 Listen to the questions. If they call for a yes
19 or a no answer you don't -- if you don't know, say so. If
20 you don't remember, say so. Otherwise if you answer yes
21 or no, unless you can't. If you can't, say I can't answer
22 that question yes or no. Please don't make explanations.
23 If any of your answers are incomplete, or 24 Ms. Scott thinks she wants to bring out anything else that 25 you have not been permitted to say, she will have another
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT
REPORTER 3107 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 opportunity to do that.
2 Do you understand our procedure?
3 THE WITNESS: Yes. I didn't know she would be
4 able to ask me the questions that I feel are very
5 important to clarify this whole thing, yes.
6 THE COURT: Then my question is, do you
7 understand the procedure?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, I understand.
9 Q Ms. Springer, the question was: What was the first
10 occasion you had when you told either Ms. Scott or
11 Mr. White that there were indeed assistant vice presidents
12 in the book?
13 A I told them on several occasions.
14 Q Which was the first one?
15 A Probably the first time I met them.
16 Q The very first time you met Mr. White or Ms. Scott?
17 A I believe it was Mr. Biegelman.
18 Q You told that to Mr. Biegelman?
19 A I believe I did, yes.
20 Q And that was bef
ore you ever met Mr. White?
21 A Yes, it was, it was over the phone.
22 Q When you met Mr. White after that, did you tell
23 Mr. White that there were assistant vice presidents in the 24 book? 25 A I believe I mentioned it to him, yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3108 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And you never told him actually that there were no
2 assistant vice president in the books, did you?
3 A Repeat the question.
4 Q Did you ever tell Mr. White that there were
5 absolutely no assistants whatsoever allowed in the book?
6 A I believe I told him we were not permitted to put
7 them in.
8 Q Did you ever tell Mr. White that there were no
9 assistants whatsoever allowed in the book? Yes or no?
10 A No.
11 Q Yesterday, page 3,041, did you testify as follows.
12 Question: Who made the decisions to ac
cept
13 people with lesser titles?
14 Answer: When I came across certain titles, like
15 if it was an assistant, assistant vice president, it would
16 be changed automatically. He didn't want assistant to
17 appear in the Registry. So I was instructed to change it,
18 cross it off and make it associate.
19 Do you recall giving that testimony just
20 yesterday?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Now, specifically, do you recall ever saying to
23 Mr. White, or to anybody, that there were no assistants 24 whatsoever allowed in the book, and if there were they 25 would be changed to associate or dropped, depending on the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3109 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 situation? Do you recall ever telling that to Mr. White?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And indeed, were you not -- was there a time when you
4 testified in the g
rand jury? Do you recall that?
5 A In regards to changing of title?
6 Q Do you recall an occasion when you testified before
7 the grand jury in this case, back in October of 1996?
8 A Yes.
9 Q That was in Brooklyn?
10 A Yes, it was.
11 Q And it was Mr. White who asked you the questions?
12 A Uh-huh.
13 Q Do you recall being asked these questions and giving
14 these answers, beginning at page 9, line 16, and I am
15 reading from 3500 -- I can't read the exhibit number on my
16 copy, the tab is so dark. 15-G, I think. 3500-15-G.
17 Question: Now, did you receive any instructions
18 from Mr. Gordon with respect to what to do if a customer's
19 business had company or, Inc., or L T D after its name?
20 Answer: If it was a president you would always
21 put down corporate management. His expertise would be
22 game hunting, and it would be corporate managem
ent as long
23 as there would be -- as there was incorporated, or Corp. 24 after the name, that was what was put. 25 Question: If that person held a position in such
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3110 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 a -- I am sorry, I am reading from the wrong one. Sorry
2 about that. Withdrawn.
3 Page 8, beginning at line 16.
4 Question: Can you tell us, did he give you any
5 idea what the titles of customers should be that you want
6 to accept?
7 Answer: Vice president, president, CEOs, CIOs,
8 any one of standing in a business which changed
9 eventually.
10 Do you recall being asked those questions -- that
11 question and giving that answer?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Yes?
14 A Yes, I do.
15 Q Then continuing:
16 Question: Did he ever instruct you in your
17 review of th
ese order forms to alter the customer's title?
18 Answer: Yes.
19 Question: Can you tell us? Can you give us an
20 example of what sort of changes he asked you to make?
21 Answer: If it was manager, it would go general
22 manager. If it was -- if their expertise was operations,
23 it would become the operations manager. If they were 24 assistant vice president, they would become vice 25 president. There was no assistants whatsoever allowed in
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3111 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 the book. And if they were they would change to
2 associate, or dropped, depended on the situation.
3 Do you recall being asked those questions and
4 giving those answers?
5 A Yes, I do.
6 Q And you testified that there were no assistants
7 whatsoever in the book; is that correct?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q And you saw there were 461 listings for assistant; is
10 that correct?
11 A That's correct.
12 Q Was that one lie or 461?
13 A What do you mean, one lie?
14 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
15 THE COURT: Sustained. Strike out the answer.
16 Please rise when you make objections, and do it
17 in a timely fashion, Ms. Scott.
18 MS. SCOTT: I will, your Honor.
19 THE COURT: That one should have alerted you
20 immediately.
21 Q Ms. Springer, when you left Who's Who Worldwide that
22 was after the raid; is that correct?
23 A That is correct. 24 Q And you testified in the grand jury that that raid 25 was the worst day of your life; is that right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3112 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 A One of the worst days, yes.
2 Q One of the worst days?
3 A Today is the other.
4
Q Do you think it is a good day for Mr. Gordon?
5 A I never claimed it was a good day for him, no.
6 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
7 MR. TRABULUS: Withdrawn.
8 THE COURT: Mr. Trabulus is so fast, that I think
9 you better stand up and remain standing. He is so quick
10 that you have to be quick on the draw.
11 I am only kidding.
12 Q Ms. Springer, you say you are a great champion of
13 animals?
14 A That's right.
15 Q And you would never hurt one?
16 A I never would.
17 Q You would never hurt another human being?
18 A Absolutely not.
19 Q You would never lie against another human being in a
20 criminal case, would you?
21 A No, I would not.
22 Q And when you left Who's Who Worldwide, you were owed
23 some vacation pay, were you not? 24 A Yes, I was. 25 Q And you were very upset that you didn't get it,
HARRY RAPA
PORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3113 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 correct?
2 A Absolutely.
3 Q You spoke to Mr. Gordon about it; is that correct?
4 A Yes, I did.
5 Q And Mr. Gordon told you that because of the
6 bankruptcy there was a difference between the pay that you
7 got when you worked and vacation pay; is that correct?
8 A It is not correct.
9 Q Did he tell you to call an attorney by the name of
10 Neil Ackerman to talk about it as to whether you can get
11 it?
12 A I don't recall that, no.
13 Q Do you recall talking to an attorney by the name of
14 Neil Ackerman?
15 A I did contact them.
16 Q That was at Mr. Gordon's suggestion?
17 A It was at Liz Sautter's discretion.
18 Q Discretion?
19 A I am sorry. She is the person who told me I have to
20 contact him when I sought to get paid for this.
21 Q She worked for Mr. Gordon; is that correct?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And was it explained to you by the attorney that 24 because of the bankruptcy vacation pay could not be 25 released?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3114 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 A That is true.
2 Q And did you also come to learn that there were other
3 people at Who's Who Worldwide who were also working for
4 nothing after the raid? Yes or no? Did you know that?
5 A I was not aware that they were not getting paid
6 anything, no.
7 Q Did you tell Mr. Gordon that you were so angry at not
8 getting your vacation pay that you would go to
9 Mr. Biegelman unless you got it?
10 A That is not true. In fact, I have a tape recorded
11 conversation I have between Liz and myself when she passed
12 me on to Mr. Gordon. I have that at home.
13 Q W
as that a tape recorded conversation -- do you have
14 a bunch of tape recorded conversations at home?
15 A No, just that one. Because she was giving me a very,
16 very hard time.
17 Q Did you bring that tape recorded conversation here?
18 A Today, no.
19 Q Did anyone ask you if you have any tape recorded
20 conversations, anyone from the prosecutions?
21 A No one asked me.
22 MR. TRABULUS: I would like to have that tape
23 recorded conversation, your Honor. It seems to me that 24 would be 3500 material. 25 MR. WHITE: I am not sure that it is.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3115 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 THE COURT: We will discuss that in the absence
2 of the jury.
3 Q Let's see if there are some things we can agree on.
4 You talked to customers?
5 A I spoke to them.
6 Q Would you say you sp
oke to thousands of customers
7 over the course of time?
8 A Over my employment, yes, thousands.
9 Q Were you involved in giving customers credits?
10 A No, I was not.
11 Q Were you aware that customers were sometimes given
12 credits?
13 A Yes, they were.
14 Q Were you aware -- aware of giving customers refunds?
15 A The same as credits.
16 Q Aware but not involved in it?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Were you aware if a customer's name was misspelled in
19 the directory or some type of mistake, they would be given
20 a free copy of the next year's directory?
21 A They had that procedure, yes.
22 Q You were aware when other mistakes were made as a way
23 to keep a customer happy, they would be given a 24 complimentary gift of sort? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3116 Springer-cross/Trabulus<
BR>
1 Q A leather item?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And there were efforts made to keep customers happy;
4 is that correct?
5 A That is correct.
6 Q Were you aware of a salesman by the name of Joe
7 Parks?
8 THE COURT: Parks? P A R K S?
9 MR. TRABULUS: Yes, your Honor.
10 A Yes.
11 Q Yes?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And did there come a point in time when Mr. Parks
14 left the business of Who's Who Worldwide?
15 A Yes, there was.
16 Q And he took with him a salesman, another salesperson
17 by the name of Kenneth McCarthy; is that correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And they started up another business; is that
20 correct?
21 A Yes, in Long Beach somewhere.
22 Q It was called Continental Who's Who?
23 A I don't recall the name. 24 Q Do you recall if there were names of customers, or 25 people who were potential members of Who's
Who, who were
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3117 Springer-cross/Trabulus
1 diverted to them by a receptionist?
2 A I don't know of that.
3 Q Did you hear anything about that?
4 A I know he was dating the receptionist.
5 Q Did you hear that the receptionist was in cahoots
6 with him in referring calls over to him?
7 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
8 THE COURT: Sustained.
9 Q Were you aware that Mr. Gordon himself made
10 complaints to Mr. Biegelman, this was before any raid,
11 concerning Joe Parks' business?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And so, Mr. Gordon himself, the same man whom you say
14 was anxious to take stuff down, off the walls when
15 government agents were there, he himself was going to the
16 postal inspectors and inviting them to become involved in
17 an investigation that related to another business which h
e
18 claimed had stolen his business; is that correct? Yes or
19 no, madam?
20 A Yes.
21 MR. TRABULUS: No further questions.
22 THE COURT: I think we will take a break at this
23 time. 24 Members of the jury, please do not discuss the 25 case. Keep an open mind. Please recess yourselves.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3118
1 (Whereupon, at this time the jury left the
2 courtroom.)
3 THE COURT: Have her wait a minute.
4 MR. WHITE: Stay or step out?
5 THE COURT: Step out. But don't leave, we want
6 to talk to you.
7 Does she understand we are not through with her
8 as a witness?
9 MR. WHITE: Yes. She wanted to just go to the
10 lady's room, I think.
11 THE COURT: All right.
12 Now, what about this tape recording or recording.
13 MR. WHITE: You are asking me or Mr. T
rabulus?
14 THE COURT: Asking anybody?
15 MR. TRABULUS: I don't know what is on them, your
16 Honor. We have a limited description of them. I think
17 the thing to be would be to call her back and out of the
18 presence of the jury to inquire what is on the tape
19 recording, to see to what extent is on the tape with
20 respect to what was elicited by the government.
21 THE COURT: All right. Let's call her back.
22
23 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3119 Springer-cross/Trabulus (Jury Absent.)
1 W E N D I S P R I N G E R ,
2 called as a witness, having been previously
3 duly sworn, was examined and testified as
4 follows:
5
6 THE COURT: Let the record indicate that this
7 phase is in the absence of the jury.
8 THE COURT: Do you want to ask a question about
9 th
e tape recording?
10 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.
11 Q You testified before the jury about a tape recording
12 you had of Liz Sautter. How long is that tape recording
13 in terms of minutes?
14 A I don't know. I really don't know.
15 Q What subject matters are discussed on the tape
16 recording?
17 A She said to me she could not believe that I
18 immediately had left the company the way it was.
19 I said, I treated you as my best friend in the
20 whole entire world. How could you sit here and hide stuff
21 from me? I felt I was -- I loved that company. I hated
22 that it closed. There were a lot of things I found out
23 after they walked in there and shut the place down that 24 hurt me very badly about her, not about Mr. Gordon. About 25 her.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3120 Springer-cross/Trabulus (Jury Absent.)
1 I asked her since I did not have a job, I wanted
2 to have my vacation pay. I was entitled to it. She told
3 me I was not entitled to it.
4 Then later down the road I had spoken with her at
5 the Sterling office, maybe it was even down here in Lake
6 Success. And that's when I was passed on to call up this
7 other individual, I don't remember, Ackerman, whoever it
8 may be. Then I was told that I was one of thousands who
9 were creditors.
10 Q Now, Ms. Springer, you just testified about two
11 different conversations with Liz Sautter?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Which one was tape recorded? The first one or the
14 second one?
15 A The first one.
16 Q And that's the one you talked to her about all the
17 different things about the company that you liked and were
18 devoted to?
19 A I said I was very hurt by her getting upset with me
20 for lookin
g for another job.
21 As soon as they came in that day, we went out for
22 a while, came back in there, got some of our belongings,
23 and the first thing I did was look in Newsday and get 24 interviews for the next day. 25 Q Ms. Springer, in that tape recording, did you discuss
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3121 Springer-cross/Trabulus (Jury Absent.)
1 with her the company and the business, and what you had
2 been doing there and what other people were doing in
3 there?
4 THE COURT: I would think that the tape recording
5 is not necessary?
6 MR. TRABULUS: I would tend to agree.
7 THE WITNESS: It was more of a personal type of
8 thing.
9 THE COURT: All right. We will recess for ten
10 minutes.
11
12 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.)
13
14 THE CLERK: Jury entering.
15 THE COU
RT: Please be seated, members of the
16 jury.
17 You may proceed.
18 MR. JENKS: I have a few questions, your Honor.
19
20 CROSS-EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. JENKS:
22 Q Good morning, Ms. Springer.
23 A Good morning. 24 Q Is it fair to say, Ms. Springer, you loved working at 25 Who's Who Worldwide?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3122 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 A I did love working at Who's Who Worldwide.
2 Q Did you consider yourself one of the more valuable
3 employees at Who's Who Worldwide?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And in fact, you started in January, 1991, right,
6 when Who's Who Worldwide was in its initial forming
7 stages; am I correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And it was like a baby? In other words, the company
10 was growing; is that right?
11 A Yes, it was growing.
12 Q And that's
when the company was out of little offices
13 at Seaview Boulevard in Port Washington?
14 A That's correct.
15 Q And you were like one of the original employees; is
16 that right?
17 A Yes.
18 Q You loved working there?
19 A I did say that, yes it is.
20 Q You loved the job you did?
21 A I loved the job I did, yes.
22 Q You believed in the product, right?
23 A I believed in the work I was doing. 24 Q Did you believe in the product? 25 A In the beginning, yes, I did.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3123 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 Q At no time did you leave your job until the raid took
2 place; am I correct?
3 A No, on several occasions I had started looking, but I
4 did not leave.
5 Q All right.
6 Would it be fair to say that as you sit here
7 today there is a certain amount of a
nger in you directed
8 toward Mr. Gordon?
9 A No. I would not say that at all.
10 Q Are you angry at all about what had occurred at the
11 company, that's you lost your job?
12 A Like I said, I enjoyed my job. I loved my job. I
13 believed in what I did.
14 I miss the people, I miss what I did, yes.
15 There is no anger. If anything, I feel very bad
16 for him. I don't hate him. I don't hate anyone. I don't
17 believe in the word "hate." I don't believe I am in the
18 word "vindictiveness." I believe in honesty. That's why
19 I am here.
20 Q Ms. Springer, you got beat out of two weeks' vacation
21 pay; is that correct?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And it all boils down to the fact that the reason you 24 are here is because of those two weeks' vacation pay? 25 A That is not correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3
124 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 Q That is not correct?
2 A That is not correct.
3 Q Am I correct when I say that the day of the raid was
4 the last day you worked at Who's Who Worldwide; is that
5 correct?
6 A Yes, it is.
7 Q Is it also correct to say that when that raid took
8 place you lost your job and a steady pay check; is that
9 correct?
10 A Yes, that's correct.
11 Q And you had no other job to go to then; is that
12 correct?
13 A No. I had a very good set of parents and a very good
14 trust fund as well.
15 Q Look, I am not interested in your parents or in your
16 trust fund. I am only interested in you answering
17 questions.
18 Did you have another job to go to?
19 A No. I had interviews.
20 Q How long did it take you to get a job?
21 A I started, I believe two or three weeks later.
22 Q At another or
ganization?
23 A Yes. 24 Q You are still at that organization? 25 A Oh, no.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3125 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 Q Another job, right?
2 A Yes.
3 Q When I was sitting here listening, you made it sound
4 like you were the vice president of this company. You
5 weren't the vice president, were you?
6 A No, I was not.
7 Q What you really were was a glorified data entry
8 clerk; is that right?
9 A No, that is not correct.
10 Q No? That is what you did, you took lead cards and
11 information sheets and order forms from salespersons and
12 punched the names into the computers; is that correct?
13 A No, it is not correct. I edited them.
14 Q Edited them?
15 A Yes.
16 Q You made slight changes to the cards and then gave it
17 to people to punch into the compute
r; is that correct?
18 A I did not make any kind of changes on the cards. I
19 made it on the order form.
20 Q You didn't report directly to Mr. Gordon, did you?
21 A I did, on many occasions.
22 Q I thought Liz Sautter was your immediate supervisor?
23 A Yes, she was. 24 Q Wouldn't you have to report to her first before you 25 reported to Mr. Gordon?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3126 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 A No.
2 Q You had access to Mr. Gordon at any minute you
3 wanted?
4 A Not every minute. He was busy as I explained before.
5 Q You weren't making the day to day decisions of
6 running Who's Who Worldwide, were you?
7 A No, I was not.
8 Q In fact, you were performing a clerical function,
9 clerical duties, correct?
10 A And administrative.
11 Q It was basically a clerical posit
ion you were doing?
12 A I don't call it clerical, no. I call it editing.
13 Q You don't call it clerical, you call it editing.
14 You recall testifying -- you testified in a civil
15 deposition back in August of 1993; is that correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q By the way, did you read your deposition testimony
18 before you testified here today?
19 A No, I did not.
20 Q Did the government ever give it to you at any time to
21 read it?
22 A I have a copy of it, yes.
23 Q You know what is in it? 24 A Yes, I do. 25 Q Is it fair to say that you lied at that deposition at
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3127 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 the civil deposition?
2 A Not fair to say that.
3 Q Not fair to say that.
4 You told me you didn't regard you as doing
5 clerical duties?
6 A I didn't say that.
I said I did administrative as
7 well as that. Predominantly I did the editing.
8 Q Did you tell them at the deposition that your primary
9 function was that you worked at the public affairs office
10 and did clerical duties?
11 A I did clerical duties. It was called public
12 affairs. But there was no -- sorry.
13 Q There was an office called public affairs, correct?
14 A It was the administrative office.
15 Q All right.
16 Let me ask you this: You say you spoke to
17 thousands of members during the tenure of your employment,
18 right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Would it be a fair statement to say that most of the
21 members were happy members in the corporation?
22 A I did not get any of the irate customers. They were
23 passed on to a different department. 24 Q Do you know how many irate customers there were? 25 A There was quite a few.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3128 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 Q How would you know that if you are busy doing
2 clerical duties and the calls were passed to someone
3 else? How would you know they were irate?
4 A The girls would come up to me and explain the
5 situation.
6 Q Were you involved in everybody's business while you
7 were working there?
8 A I was involved in quite a few people's business.
9 Q It seems you were involved in everybody's business?
10 A Not everybody's, no.
11 Q You didn't work in the sales department, did you?
12 A No, I did not.
13 Q You didn't sell memberships to anybody, correct?
14 A No.
15 Q You didn't sit there while the salespeople called
16 people up on the phone, did you?
17 A I was in the sales rooms on many, many occasions when
18 they were pitching, yes.
19 Q You
were in there on occasion; is that correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q You didn't sit there everyday and listen to every
22 salesperson pitch, did you?
23 A No. 24 Q You didn't revise the pitch sheets, did you? 25 A No.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3129 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 Q You don't know if what is contained in the pitch
2 sheet is true or false, do you?
3 A I know one thing that is false in the pitch sheet.
4 Q You know that? You never did any of the pitches; is
5 that right?
6 A I on occasion when Liz was busy --
7 Q You are not answering my questions.
8 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
9 MR. WHITE: Objection. She is answering the
10 questions. Mr. Jenks didn't let her finish.
11 THE COURT: I will not go through the questions,
12 it seems the questions all call for a yes or no answer.
13 MR. JEN
KS: That's correct, your Honor.
14 Q Start where you were interrupted. Start again.
15 Did you make any pitches to customers?
16 A No.
17 Q Did you prepare the pitch sheet?
18 A Once or twice.
19 Q You prepared a pitch sheet as part of your
20 administrative duties?
21 A I typed one for Liz, yes.
22 Q Did you devise the pitch sheet?
23 A What do you mean? 24 Q Did you create it, make it up? 25 A No.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3130 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 Q How would you know as to whether the content of the
2 pitch sheets were true or false?
3 A There is one word in there that I believe is false.
4 Q One word you believed in the pitch sheet was false?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Yet you never sold any memberships, right?
7 A No, I never did.
8 Q You never heard these salespeople or any
other
9 salespeople go through an entire pitch with a customer and
10 go and listen to it. Did you?
11 A I heard drips and drabs.
12 Q You heard drips and drabs everywhere in the company
13 because you were everywhere?
14 A Yeah, I was in a lot of places, correct.
15 Q Let me ask you this: This issue with your vacation
16 pay, are you the person who called up like two times a day
17 everyday after the government raided the company looking
18 for your money?
19 A Not everyday, no.
20 Q This doesn't all boil down to the fact that you
21 didn't get your vacation pay, does it?
22 A No, absolutely not.
23 Q You were calling like crazy looking for your money? 24 A I was calling looking for paperwork, my file. 25 Q You were asking for your paperwork. What paperwork
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3131 Springer-c
ross/Jenks
1 were you asking for?
2 A I had letter of references in there. I had -- I
3 believe just letter of references that I wanted to forward
4 on to my old -- to prospective employment.
5 Q Maybe you should have been asking the government for
6 the paperwork since they had it when they did the raid?
7 A I did ask them as well.
8 Q And did they give it to you?
9 A No.
10 Q Not to this day, correct?
11 A Not to this day.
12 Q But you nevertheless were asking Gordon and Elizabeth
13 Sautter to get it?
14 A I asked them for it and asked them for my vacation
15 pay.
16 Q You were constantly asking for it?
17 A Not constantly.
18 Q How many times did you call up and ask Gordon for
19 your money?
20 A I spoke with him once.
21 Q Just once?
22 A Once.
23 Q How about Liz Sautter? 24 A I spoke wi
th her quite a few times after the raid. 25 Q Did you tell either Liz Sautter or Bruce Gordon that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3132 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 if you don't get the god damn money you are going to
2 Biegelman? Did you tell them that?
3 A That is not true.
4 Q Not true?
5 A Not true.
6 Q Did you go to Biegelman and tell Biegelman that they
7 didn't pay you?
8 A I told him I wanted my vacation pay. Is there a way
9 of getting my payroll -- not the payroll, but the employee
10 record.
11 Q But you did go to Biegelman and tell them that they
12 stiffed you for a couple of weeks vacation?
13 A I told him I wanted my two weeks.
14 Q That was your primary function when you left the job
15 in March of 1995?
16 A No, my primary function was getting another job.
17 Q You loved the compan
y so much?
18 A I loved it up to a certain point.
19 Q You knew people went back and volunteered to work for
20 free there?
21 A I don't know it for a fact.
22 Q You heard that, didn't you?
23 A I was asked, I believe, to come back. 24 Q And despite your parents and your trust funds you 25 didn't go back and volunteer to work there because you got
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3133 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 stiffed out of the two weeks vacation?
2 A It is not true. At that time I didn't know I would
3 be stiffed with the vacation pay. I wanted to move on
4 with my life and get a job where government officials
5 would not come in. I was not going to put myself in that
6 place again.
7 Q Up until then you put yourself there, up until the
8 very day the agents came, right?
9 A I was there on that day, yes
.
10 Q All right.
11 Would it be fair to say that it was rare that
12 members were unhappy when they spoke with you.
13 Is that fair to say?
14 A Like I explained to you when I got the phone calls,
15 it was passed on to a group leader and there were other
16 two individuals who handled complaint calls.
17 MR. SCHOER: Objection. Not responsive to the
18 question.
19 THE COURT: Yes. It is not. Strike out the
20 answer as not being responsive.
21 Q Would you say that it was rare that you received
22 calls from unhappy members, you?
23 A Personally? 24 Q Yes. 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3134 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 Q And would you say that members many times on their
2 own volition upgraded their memberships?
3 A Yes, there were upgrades of memberships.
4 Q In othe
r words, an unhappy -- a happy member would
5 call in and say I have a three-year membership, but I want
6 to be a lifetime member; did that happen?
7 A Occasionally, yes.
8 Q It wasn't as a result of anyone from the corporation
9 calling up, it was as a result of the member being
10 satisfied with the product, right?
11 A They were called by telemarketers to upgrade their
12 memberships.
13 Q Did members call to you and say they wanted an
14 upgrade?
15 A To me personally, no.
16 Q Would it be fair to say that many members over the
17 course of time upgraded their membership to more expensive
18 membership?
19 A Yes, it is.
20 Q Because they liked the product; is that correct?
21 A I would assume so.
22 Q So obviously those people wouldn't feel that the
23 company was defrauding them? 24 A I can't answer for them. 25 MS. S
COTT: Objection.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3135 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 Q Now, you were also in charge, correct, in sending the
2 invoices out, correct?
3 A I did send them out.
4 Q When you sent out the invoices, you tried to make
5 them as accurate as possible; is that correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q In fact, you never tried to misrepresent anything in
8 the invoices; am I right?
9 A I don't understand what you are trying to say.
10 Q I am trying to say when you got the cards with
11 respect to the information from the members, education and
12 so forth, you weren't instructed to change any member's
13 educational criteria?
14 A Absolutely not.
15 Q Or the name of the company they worked for?
16 A No.
17 Q And your testimony was that Gordon wanted no
18 assistants; is that correct?
19 A
Yes.
20 Q And that's what you said?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And that's your position as you stand here today?
23 A Yes. 24 Q Or as you sit here today? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3136 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 Q That Gordon wanted no assistant, so assistants would
2 have to be taken out?
3 A They would not be included.
4 Q But Mr. Trabulus asked you, and you saw that there
5 were 461 assistants in the book, right?
6 A Yes, I did.
7 Q Now, when you testified yesterday, you recall being
8 asked this question and giving this answer -- this is on
9 the multi-page transcript, Ms. Scott, at page 3040, line
10 24.
11 Question: Were there any other titles that were
12 not permitted titles?
13 Answer: Assistant.
14 Do you recall being asked that question and
15 giving tha
t answer?
16 A Yes, I do.
17 Q Right.
18 Question: Who made the decision to accept people
19 who had lesser titles?
20 Answer: When I came across certain titles, like
21 if it was an assistant, assistant vice president, it would
22 be changed automatically. He didn't want, quotes,
23 assistant, to appear in the Registry. So I was instructed 24 to change it, cross it off, and make it "associate." 25 Do you recall being asked that question yesterday
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3137 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 and giving an answer to that question?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Can you tell me how 461 assistants got into the
4 Registry while you were there assisting in the job?
5 A Yes, I would be more than happy to explain.
6 When the company first started, as you explained
7 when I started there, as I testified yesterda
y, I was not
8 instructed, I was not talked to by Mr. Gordon until I was
9 there seven to eight months. I was instructed at that
10 time by Liz Sautter whatever was on the order forms to put
11 in -- I am glad you mentioned the upgrades, because the
12 people who --
13 Q I am not talking about upgrades now. I know you like
14 to talk. Can you answer the question I asked?
15 A You are asking me what is relevant.
16 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
17 THE COURT: Mr. Jenks, you asked the witness to
18 explain. Please don't interrupt her. You slipped on that
19 one.
20 MR. JENKS: Occasionally, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: You will make it up again.
22 Go ahead and explain.
23 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 24 People were upgraded. And they were upgraded 25 from when the company originally when I first started
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPO
RTER 3138 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 there in 1991. At that time there was no memberships.
2 And at that time there were assistants. I was never
3 instructed to change assistants to associates. If I was
4 told to, if there was a report that read out of any
5 database that said, and Mr. Gordon or Liz said to me, make
6 these changes, I would have done them. That is the reason
7 why they are in there. That's the reason they are in
8 there for lifetime memberships. If there was an upgrade I
9 didn't go into any of that information. If you look at an
10 upgrade order form, there was no information except for
11 upgrade and the price. I wouldn't know if there was -- if
12 what their title was. I wouldn't know if there was an
13 assistant. I wouldn't know if it was an associate. And I
14 was not going to change them.
15 Q You sort of seemed to give us the impression
that
16 Gordon wanted to somehow deceive people yesterday and
17 today by changing the title from "assistant "to
18 "associate" vice president. Didn't you testify to that?
19 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
20 THE COURT: What ground?
21 MS. SCOTT: On what Gordon was trying to do.
22 THE COURT: I am sorry, I can't hear you.
23 MS. SCOTT: On what Gordon was trying to do. 24 MR. JENKS: That was the whole basis of their 25 direct, your Honor.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3139 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 THE COURT: If I need your help I will ask you.
2 Overruled.
3 Q Isn't that the impression you tried to create for us,
4 that Gordon was trying to do some sort of deceptive thing
5 by changing people's titles from assistant to associate?
6 A He wanted the Registry to look like upstanding
7 individuals in the business i
ndustry. That's what he
8 wanted.
9 Q You would agree that many of the people in that
10 Registry are in fact upstanding members in business
11 industry; is that correct?
12 A Yes, I would agree.
13 Q All right.
14 At the company, there was no double or
15 triple-billing of customers, was there?
16 A There was a split billing.
17 Q In other words, they got the bill initially when they
18 were a member, and then a second statement with respect to
19 the Registry; is that correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And that was after the Registry was published; is
22 that right?
23 A It was during the process of the Registry being 24 created. 25 Q And that's a mail order rule, right? The reason that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3140 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 there was split billing, not because there was
some kind
2 of scheme to scam somebody; is that right?
3 A I would say a lot of people did not want to pay the
4 full membership price up front, so there was that split
5 billing for that purpose.
6 Q Wasn't there also split billing for a very legitimate
7 reason, when you do mail order you have to bill the
8 product within thirty days?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And you have to split it because you will not publish
11 until October of next year; is that right?
12 A Yes.
13 Q If you charged someone in May, you couldn't charge
14 for the registry unless you were going to deliver the book
15 within thirty days?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q And there was nothing wrong or deceptive by engaging
18 in split billing?
19 A That's right.
20 Q That's not the perception we want the jury to have
21 because the bill was split the people were scammed?
2
2 A Not in that aspect, no.
23 Q Because by law in a mail order business you can't 24 collect for a product unless it is shipped within thirty 25 days; is that right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3141 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 A That is correct.
2 Q Now, the issue of nominations you previously
3 testified about, Ms. Springer, and you testified that you
4 saw many nomination ballots, circa 1993; is that correct?
5 A That is correct.
6 Q And before that would it be fair to say that members
7 were often nominated by telephone or by fax machine?
8 A That did happen occasionally, yes.
9 Q That other members would nominate members?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Do you have any idea how many members in those
12 Registries were actually nominated by any members?
13 A I wouldn't know that, no.
14 Q You could not put your fin
ger on any kind of number,
15 right?
16 A No, I couldn't tell you how many.
17 Q Now, you also testified about mailing lists, and I
18 believe Antun Publications; is that right? Is that
19 A N T U N?
20 A I don't remember the spelling, but there was a
21 different company, Fala, F A L A, Fala Direct Marketing.
22 Q The mail order lists, or the mailing lists, let's
23 say, were you involved in obtaining mailing lists? 24 A No, I was not. 25 Q But you have knowledge about mailing lists; is that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3142 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And is it fair to say before this jury that you could
4 buy a mailing list from one of these mail order places,
5 one of the list brokers, rather, that would give you a
6 list of the let's say all vice president in chemical
7 companies? Would you know that?
8 A I -- I am not sure how that procedure worked. I did
9 not get involved in that aspect of it.
10 Q So, you are not familiar with whether or not an
11 individual running a business would be able to let's say,
12 buy a list of all orthopedic surgeons in the United
13 States?
14 A I am not sure.
15 Q All right.
16 Now, with the issue of nominations, would -- did
17 Mr. Gordon create the nomination ballot?
18 A The nomination letter.
19 Q How about the ballot itself?
20 A He designed it.
21 Q And was it not so that each -- that every nomination
22 ballot when it was created, a nomination ballot was sent
23 with the letter to the potential customer; is that 24 correct? 25 A That was, I believe, '93, or '94. I don't remember
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3143 Spri
nger-cross/Jenks
1 which year it was.
2 Q But everybody got a nomination ballot?
3 A Yes. Everyone did.
4 Q And would it be fair to say that when everyone
5 started to get the nomination ballot, a lot of nominations
6 started to come in by other members; is that right?
7 A There was, you know, there was an amount. I don't
8 know how many of them. It wasn't like the normal cards
9 that came in everyday.
10 Q Did you get calls from people asking if you were
11 Who's Who in America?
12 A They did.
13 Q Did you get them?
14 A Did I get them?
15 I am sure I did when I picked the phone up a
16 couple of times at the receptionist desk.
17 Q What would you tell them?
18 A Absolutely no affiliation.
19 Q You would say to them that this company is not
20 affiliated with Who's Who in America; is that correct?
21 A That is correct
.
22 Q And when I say Who's Who in America, would you also
23 get calls from people asking whether or not you were 24 Marquis? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3144 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 Q And you would say we are not Marquis; is that
2 correct?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q Mr. Gordon never instructed you to deceive anyone
5 saying, yes, we are Who's Who in America, or we are
6 Marquis; is that right?
7 A No, he did not instruct us to do that.
8 Q Is it fair to say that Mr. Gordon felt very proud
9 that he was a competitor for of Marquis Who's Who and was
10 willing to challenge them in business?
11 A Yes, that is true.
12 Q And would it also be fair to say that you didn't try
13 to represent that the company was some other company; as a
14 result?
15 A No, we never represented
that.
16 Q There was nothing ever sent around instructing you as
17 an administration person to represent that to customers
18 when they called you?
19 A Absolutely not, right.
20 Q Now, you had to -- you had a say in the acceptance or
21 rejection of members.
22 A Yes.
23 Q And from time to time you would accept members? 24 A I would go up to Mr. Gordon if there was somebody I 25 felt not suitable, yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3145 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 Q Did Mr. Gordon reject members on occasion?
2 A There was a couple.
3 Q Were there any written guidelines you used to -- you
4 used to determine whether or not someone should be a
5 member?
6 A No. He told me what he was looking for when I had
7 that conversation when I was there for seven months into
8 my employment.
9 Q S
o, there were no written guidelines according to you
10 as to who to include or exclude from the Registry,
11 correct?
12 A Written guidelines, no.
13 Q All right.
14 You recall testifying back at that deposition in
15 1993; is that correct?
16 A Yes, I do.
17 Q And you recall being asked this question and giving
18 this answer on page 12 of your deposition, line 23: Are
19 there any written guidelines that you have?
20 Answer: Yes.
21 I am going to read the preceding question to that
22 for clarity.
23 A Uh-huh. 24 Q Question: Have you had any formal training from 25 anyone at World Wide Registry as to when -- to know when
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3146 Springer-cross/Jenks
1 to include or exclude?
2 You responded then, answer, I had Mr. Gordon
3 explain to me exactly what the
procedures are and what to
4 look out for in terms of, like I said, if it is not a
5 reputable firm. If it's, you know, pardon my French, a
6 whorehouse, I have to reject it. It is not appropriate,
7 and our members would not appreciate that kind of
8 information being in the Registry. They are not a
9 business leader.
10 The next question. Are there any written
11 guidelines that you have?
12 Answer: Yes.
13 A Yes.
14 Q You just said no two minutes ago. Before I read you
15 this you said no; is that right?
16 A That is correct.
17 Q Here you said the opposite?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q What is it?
20 A On the back of the guidelines is what I followed. It
21 is not written by him.
22 MR. JENKS: Thank you.
23 THE WITNESS: But it is the guideline. 24 MR. JENKS: I have nothing further, your Honor. 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3147 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. SCHOER:
3 Q Good morning, Ms. Springer.
4 A Good morning.
5 Q It is still morning?
6 A Unfortunately.
7 Q Unfortunately?
8 A I wish it was evening and I could go home and be rid
9 of this whole thing.
10 Q We will get you out of here.
11 A No offense.
12 Q I don't take any offense.
13 You were in the administration office in the Lake
14 Success office; is that correct?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q And how many other people worked in administration?
17 A I would say around ten to twelve. Around ten.
18 Q Okay.
19 And the head of the administration department was
20 Liz Sautter; is that correct?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q And Liz Sautter had worked for Mr. Gordon for many
23 years, e
ven before Who's Who Worldwide was in existence; 24 isn't that so? 25 A That is so.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3148 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 Q Would you say that Liz Sautter was Mr. Gordon's
2 right-hand man, right-hand person?
3 A You got it right on the button.
4 Q She knew exactly what everybody was doing in the
5 business; isn't that correct?
6 A Absolutely.
7 Q Now, you said there were about ten people in
8 administration. Did all those people work in one office?
9 A Yes, we did.
10 Q And that office had file cabinets in it?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And those file cabinets were kept locked; right?
13 A Oh, yeah.
14 Q And people in the sales department couldn't go into
15 those file cabinets, right?
16 A No.
17 Q And that was an absolute rule, wasn't it?
18 A Oh, yes.
19 Q Okay.
20 In fact, people in the sales departments were --
21 in the sales department, were discouraged from even coming
22 into the administration office. Isn't that so?
23 A Were not permitted. 24 Q Were not permitted. You couldn't cross that line 25 from sales into administration?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3149 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 A The black door they called it, yes.
2 Q Okay.
3 Now, that was done because Mr. Gordon and
4 Ms. Sautter didn't want people to know certain things; is
5 that right?
6 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.
7 THE COURT: Overruled.
8 A Not some things, they didn't want them to know
9 anything.
10 Q They didn't want them to know anything but the pitch,
11 right?
12 A That's right.
13 Q And they didn't want them to know what you were
14 doing; is
that right?
15 A That is correct.
16 Q Now, they thought -- withdrawn.
17 They would write out orders, right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And either you or someone else from administration
20 every half an hour would come to their bins and pick up
21 those orders and take those through the black door, across
22 the line into administration, right?
23 A Yes. 24 Q Okay. 25 And it was your major responsibility to review
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3150 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 those orders; isn't that right, and make sure that the
2 people were qualified?
3 A It is correct.
4 Q You said that yesterday, you said that the first day
5 that you testified? That was your number one
6 responsibility?
7 A That is correct.
8 Q And the salespeople knew that that was your number
9 one responsibilit
y; isn't that so?
10 A Yes, they did.
11 Q Okay.
12 And they believed, as far as you knew, that you
13 were checking every one of those orders to make sure that
14 those people were qualified, right?
15 A Yes.
16 Q They didn't know that Mr. Gordon might have told you
17 to accept people who weren't qualified, right?
18 A They would not know that.
19 Q They didn't know anything about you marking on the
20 cards, as per Bruce Gordon, or BG, right?
21 A They did not know that.
22 Q Okay.
23 So, they thought that there was a selection -- 24 another layer of review, and that was you, right? 25 A I would not go as far as that, no.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3151 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 Q Okay.
2 A That I would not.
3 Q But it was your major responsibility to do that, to
4 mak
e sure that people that were qualified -- that people
5 that were put -- accepted for membership were qualified;
6 is that right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Now, you didn't have any financial interest in this
9 business, right?
10 A Oh, no.
11 Q And you didn't have any ownership interest in this
12 business, right?
13 A No.
14 Q And so, you had no personal reason to put people in
15 the book who weren't qualified, did you, a personal
16 reason? Did you get any personal gain by putting people
17 in the book who weren't qualified?
18 A No.
19 Q Okay.
20 You didn't put people in the book who weren't
21 qualified to deceive other people, did you?
22 A Only the ones I mentioned before. And it was put,
23 although it wasn't deception. And I am talking about the 24 people such as Colin Powell. 25 Q Maybe I didn't make my question clear enough.<
BR>
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3152 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 The people you put in the book that you believed
2 weren't qualified, but that you were told to put in the
3 book as being qualified, you didn't do that with any
4 intent to deceive other people, did you?
5 A Personally, no.
6 Q Okay.
7 And none of the people that were put in the book,
8 whether you thought they were qualified or unqualified,
9 were put in the book to deceive anyone, were they?
10 A From me personally?
11 Q Did you try to deceive anyone?
12 A No.
13 Q You thought you were working a legitimate business;
14 is that right?
15 A Yes.
16 Q You were proud of that business?
17 A I was proud of my position, yes.
18 Q You had risen in the ranks from receptionist to the
19 what was your title --
20 A Editori
al assistant.
21 Q Editorial assistant?
22 A Yes.
23 Q You were proud of that job? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Your first job?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3153 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 A My first real job.
2 Q In the business as far as you understood was shipping
3 books to people; is that right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And the business had this Tribute Magazine that went
6 out, right?
7 A That is true.
8 Q A very nice magazine, right?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Something to be proud of?
11 A Yes.
12 Q A product?
13 A Yes.
14 Q They shipped the plaques?
15 A They did ship the wall plaques.
16 Q A nice plaque as far as you understood, right?
17 A It was a nice plaque.
18 Q A nice product, right?
19 A It was okay.
20 Q You didn't think there was anything deceptive a
bout
21 the business when you were working there, right?
22 A I had doubts.
23 Q Did you continue to work there? 24 A Yes, I did. 25 Q Did you think you were doing anything illegal?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3154 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 A Absolutely not.
2 Q Because you didn't think you were deceiving anyone,
3 right?
4 A I was not deceiving anyone.
5 Q You didn't have the intentions to deceive anyone by
6 working at Who's Who Worldwide, did you?
7 A No.
8 Q You didn't have the intention to deceive anyone by
9 working with Sterling, whatever you were doing with
10 Sterling as well?
11 A No, I had no -- right.
12 Q Now, the day the agents came, March 30th, Liz
13 Sautter, Mr. Gordon's right-hand man, right-hand person,
14 the person knowing everything that was going on, she
15 wasn't arrested was she?
16 A She was taken out of the building. I thought she was
17 arrested, she was not.
18 Q She was not?
19 A Right.
20 Q And you weren't arrested were you?
21 A Nope.
22 Q Because you didn't do anything wrong, did you?
23 A That's correct. 24 Q When you first started working at Port Washington, is 25 that the first time you met Tara?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3155 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 A Yes, it is.
2 Q You knew her to be Tara Green?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Did you know her true name was Tara Garboski?
5 A I know that, yes.
6 Q And did you know it at the time?
7 A Not at the time.
8 Q Did there come a time while you were working there
9 that you learned that?
10 A Sure.
11 Q Did you find that to be deceptive in any way that she
1
2 was using the name Tara Green instead of Tara Garboski
13 when she was dealing with the public?
14 A I didn't understand why until it was explained.
15 Q Did you feel that it was deceptive?
16 A They didn't change my name. It had nothing to do
17 with me. I can't say if I did or didn't. I thought it
18 was strange, I will put it that way. I thought it was
19 strange.
20 Q And when you first met Tara, was she a group leader
21 or was she just a salesperson?
22 A She was a salesperson.
23 Q And she was a salesperson while you were in Port 24 Washington, right? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3156 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 Q And at that time when you were in Port Washington,
2 was the pitch basically as far as you know, the same from
3 the time you first started working until March 30th, 19 --
4 A I don't know that. I know it was changed a lot of
5 times but I don't know --
6 Q Just words, though, not the concept?
7 A I don't know.
8 Q Okay.
9 Do you know who created the script, the pitch?
10 A Mr. Gordon.
11 Q Mr. Gordon created it.
12 And there were solicitation letters; is that
13 right?
14 A Yes, there were.
15 Q Did you ever see the solicitation letters?
16 A Yes, I did.
17 Q And in fact, those solicitation letters were sent
18 from the administration office, right?
19 A Not correct.
20 Q What office sent the solicitation letters?
21 A It was one of the mailings -- I don't know who --
22 Q Was -- I didn't mean to interrupt you.
23 A I don't know if it was Antun's Place. I know there 24 was a lot of postage required to go out to get the 25 mailings. I don't know from who, from when, any of that.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3157 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 Q But in the beginning at least, the direction to
2 Antun's, or whatever mailing house was doing it, came from
3 Liz Sautter and through administration; isn't that
4 correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And so, it was administration's responsibility, your
7 branch of the business, their responsibility to send out
8 those solicitation letters, or to direct someone to?
9 A I had nothing to do with that aspect. It was between
10 her and Mr. Gordon.
11 Q How about mail that came in? Did you have anything
12 to do with the mail that came?
13 A Helped open the mail.
14 Q And the invoices that were mailed out, you reviewed
15 those invoices, right?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And were those sent out by administration?
18 A Yes.
19 Q So other people in the office, in your
office were
20 the people who actually mailed the invoices to members; is
21 that right?
22 A That is correct.
23 Q And all the mail that was -- that came in to Who's 24 Who Worldwide came in to the administration office; isn't 25 that so?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3158 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 A There or the conference room.
2 Q Okay.
3 In fact, when you talked about sorting the cards,
4 it was done in the conference room; is that right?
5 A It was done either in the conference room, or it was
6 done in the administrative room.
7 Q When it was done in the conference room, the door was
8 locked, right?
9 A You better believe it.
10 Q The salespeople were not allowed in the conference
11 room while you were sorting cards or whoever was doing the
12 sorting; is that right?
13 A T
hat is correct.
14 Q You talked about the sorting of the cards -- well,
15 let me ask you a question before that.
16 Those cards when they were mailed from the
17 mailing house, did they have stamps on them?
18 A There was postage that was -- I don't know.
19 Q Maybe I am being unclear.
20 A Okay.
21 Q The cards that came back from potential members, did
22 those potential members have to put a stamp on that card?
23 A Yes. 24 Q And they had to voluntarily fill out the card and put 25 a stamp on it, their own 32 cents, or whatever it was at
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3159 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 that time, and then mail it back; is that right?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And Who's Who Worldwide didn't pre-stamp those cards?
4 A No, they did not.
5 Q Now, when you sorted the cards did you look at them?
6 A Occasionally. There wasn't enough time to look at
7 it. If something caught my eye I looked at it.
8 Q If there was a card in crayon, would it catch your
9 eye?
10 A I am sure it would have.
11 Q If you saw a card in crayon, would you have taken it
12 out?
13 A I personally would have, yes.
14 Q And were there other cards where there might be
15 something that caught your eye that you would have taken
16 out?
17 A Yes.
18 Q For example, what kind of things would you have taken
19 out if it had caught your eye?
20 A The nomination letter. A lot of people attached
21 their letter to that card.
22 Q But other than that, the cards itself, was there
23 anything on the card that would have caused you to take 24 that card out and not put it in the bundles? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3160 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 Q Like what?
2 A If the person was deceased, if it said that this is a
3 scam, take me off your mailing list. There were a lot of
4 cards that came in with indications like that. A lot of
5 people were deceased.
6 Q You took those cards out; is that right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q You didn't but them in the bundles, right?
9 A Oh, no.
10 Q And you did some sort of screening at that point,
11 right, when you looked through the cards?
12 A It was for that purpose. It would be in big letters,
13 deceased, you can't help but see it.
14 Q If someone wrote in little letters deceased, you
15 would not see the rest of the card, you would pull that
16 card out as well; is that right?
17 A Yes. Sure.
18 Q You put the cards in rubberbands you said?
19 A They were rubberbanded.
20 Q Were there any particular numbers
of cards in each
21 rubberband? Was that some sort of process?
22 A There was sometimes 20, there was sometimes 25.
23 There was sometimes more. 24 Q And who made that determination as to how many to put 25 in a rubberbanded bundle?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3161 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 A Mr. Gordon.
2 Q And so, Mr. Gordon, is it fair to say was a very
3 hands-on manager of this business, the CEO; is that right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And he made almost all the decisions, right?
6 A It was his company. It was his decisions.
7 Q He is making decisions down to the minute detail as
8 to how many cards to put in a bundle, right?
9 A Oh, yes.
10 MR. SCHOER: Excuse me, Judge, I just need some
11 water.
12 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
13 proceedings.)
14 Q Then you said af
ter you bundled the cards in
15 rubberbands, that you locked them in a drawer; is that
16 right?
17 A That is correct.
18 Q When you say drawer, did you mean a file cabinet
19 drawer?
20 A File cabinet.
21 Q So, you would be in this -- many times you would be
22 in the conference room. You would bundle the things up,
23 go into administration, across that black door, and 24 immediately go and lock them in a drawer? 25 A They would go in the drawer locked.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3162 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 Q Locked?
2 A Yes.
3 Q So no one else could see them, right?
4 A That is correct.
5 Q You did it at Mr. Gordon's direction and
6 Ms. Sautter's direction as well?
7 A Yes. He wanted them locked.
8 Q All right.
9 And then there would be some direction as to when
10 to take them out of the drawer, right?
11 A He would give them out, yes.
12 Q Either he would give them out, or he would direct
13 you, but primarily he would direct Liz Sautter, and
14 sometimes he would direct you?
15 A Yes.
16 Q To give them out; is that right?
17 A That's correct. Not to give them out, to give them
18 to group leaders.
19 Q To the group leaders?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Okay.
22 I want to clarify this, but you mentioned a
23 period of seven months. You mentioned seven months many 24 times in your testimony. And that was a period of seven 25 months where you really were not told what the criteria
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3163 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 was; is that correct?
2 A I was not instructed.
3 Q Okay, you weren't instructed.
4 Was that seven months afte
r you became -- you got
5 your promotion?
6 A I would say that's when I started editing the orders,
7 yes.
8 Q So, for a period of seven months you weren't told
9 what to do?
10 A No.
11 Q And during that period of seven months, did you see
12 people who you didn't think belonged in the Registry?
13 A I was looking for it at that time. I was just
14 instructed -- I was only person -- no, there were two of
15 us. There were two of us doing the data entry.
16 Q Well, at that time you were just doing data entry?
17 A Yes.
18 Q For the seven months.
19 Do you know if Liz Sautter was looking through
20 the orders before she gave them to you for data entry
21 during that seven-month period?
22 A I don't believe so.
23 Q Do you know whether anyone else in administration was 24 looking through the orders during that seven-month period <
BR> 25 before they gave it to you for data entry?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3164 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 A Not that I know of, no.
2 Q And after that seven-month period, that's when your
3 responsibility sort of grew, in that now it was your job
4 to look through the orders to make sure people were
5 qualified; is that fair?
6 A That is correct.
7 Q Okay.
8 You said there were times you made changes to the
9 order form; is that fair?
10 A That is correct.
11 Q All right.
12 And the changes you were talking about with
13 respect to title, were those made on the order forms?
14 A Yes, it was.
15 Q Okay.
16 So, if you saw -- let me just try to clarify
17 this.
18 You said there came a time when you were
19 instructed to no longer permit the term "assistant," and
20 now it
had to be "associate"; is that right?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Can you tell us when it was that that direction was
23 given to you? 24 A There were a lot of changes that went through. I 25 couldn't possibly remember any year-wise or anything else.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3165 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 Q How about in December of '92? Do you think that was
2 a period of time when you were changing titles?
3 A I don't remember.
4 Q How about in April of '93, about a year before you
5 stopped work?
6 A Yeah.
7 Q You would think that would be a time when you were
8 changing titles; is that fair?
9 A It could be. I really don't -- I don't know.
10 (Counsel confer.)
11 MR. SCHOER: We can't put our hands on the
12 exhibit. It is in evidence. I have my copy I will use.
13 THE COURT: You have the identifi
cation of it?
14 MR. SCHOER: Yes, and with the consent of the
15 government.
16 Q I will ask you to look at 41-B, and Exhibit 41-C.
17 If you don't mind, I will stand here.
18 (Handed to the witness.)
19 Q Rather than scream at you from across the room.
20 You indicated that you recognized this form, I
21 believe, yesterday or early this morning when you
22 testified; is that correct?
23 A That is correct. 24 Q And particularly you recognized this particular form; 25 is that right, or at least the handwriting on this form?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3166 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 A Yes.
2 Q Is it fair to say the form is dated April 13, 1993?
3 A That is correct.
4 Q And on this form the title is listed as assistant
5 vice president, risk manager; is that right?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q And did you make any change to that title?
8 A To the title, no.
9 Q There are other changes on the form, isn't that's so,
10 with respect to the type of organization?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Okay.
13 And are those changes, were they made by you?
14 A Yes, they were.
15 Q So in April of 1993 you didn't change the title from
16 "assistant" to "associate"?
17 A No, I did not.
18 Q In fact, it is confirmed by Exhibit 41-B, the
19 invoice, it is still assistant vice president and risk
20 manager; isn't that so?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And that's the information that would go into the
23 book whatever is on this invoice; is that so? 24 A That's true. 25 Q The title is not on the bottom where the other things
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3167 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 are listed?
2 A That's s
o.
3 Q And the title comes off this part, off the address?
4 A That is correct.
5 Q All right.
6 Now, you also indicated that you were told that
7 whenever someone was the president and it was a
8 corporation, you were supposed to put that their expertise
9 was corporate management?
10 A That's correct.
11 (Counsel confer.)
12 MR. SCHOER: I am sorry, Judge, there was some
13 confusion as to which were in evidence and which weren't.
14 THE COURT: That's all right.
15 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
16 proceedings.)
17 MR. TRABULUS: We will move on to something
18 else.
19 Q With respect to the criteria as to who was to be put
20 into the book, there came a time when Mr. Gordon did
21 instruct you as to who was supposed to be in the book; is
22 that right?
23 A That is correct. 24 Q And at times he
instructed the salespeople, as far as 25 you knew, right, isn't that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3168 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 A I don't -- I am not sure what conversations he had
2 with the salespeople.
3 Q So, you were never in any of the sales training
4 sessions, is that right?
5 A No, I was not.
6 Q Did he tell you things like I don't want a K-Mart
7 manager, I want the CEO of K-Mart? Did he tell you things
8 like that?
9 A No. He didn't -- he told me the type of people he
10 was looking for. But that particular one, no.
11 Q Did he tell you things like I don't want a McDonald's
12 manager?
13 A Yes, he did.
14 Q Did he tell you things like, I don't want a
15 McDonald's manager, I want the CFO, the chief financial
16 officer of McDonald's, I want a regional manager that
17 ha
ndles 50 stores? Did he tell you things like that?
18 A He wouldn't have told me things like that
19 personally. He would have told the salespeople.
20 Q Okay. I am just asking you what he would have told
21 you.
22 Did he tell you that he doesn't want pizza
23 parlors, or a Chinese restaurant owner, he doesn't want 24 someone who owns a motel? 25 A He did say things like that, yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3169 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 Q Is that right?
2 A That's true.
3 Q But if someone owned three motels, that's not so bad,
4 maybe we will consider that person, right?
5 A That is correct.
6 Q And as far as you knew he was saying the same thing
7 to the salespeople, right?
8 A I would say he would be, yes.
9 Q Okay.
10 Now, when you went through the cards, or the
11 orders th
at they were taken by salespeople, and you saw
12 some that you didn't think ought to be in --
13 A I saw a lot that I didn't think should be in.
14 Q Okay.
15 You would go to Mr. Gordon, right?
16 A I would go to him and I would go to someone else.
17 Q Debra Benjamin, right?
18 A I went to her, but there was other people.
19 Q Okay.
20 And you would write on the forms, per BG, right?
21 A Not all the time. There were occasions which I did,
22 yes.
23 Q All right. 24 Now, there were other times where you weren't 25 sure for the categories that people were listed in? For
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3170 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 example, the product line; isn't that so?
2 A That is true.
3 Q And when you weren't sure, you would give those
4 forms, or you would call the group leaders concern
ing the
5 product line; is that right?
6 A I would hand the orders back to the group leaders.
7 Q You would ask them to categorize the product line so
8 it made sense, particularly with respect to the CD-ROM,
9 right?
10 A Not them. They would pass it on to the person who
11 wrote the order.
12 Q Right. The person who actually talked to the person
13 on the phone, so that then that could be changed, and
14 that's what some of the changes are on these order forms
15 in the box by business, and major product services; is
16 that right?
17 A Yes, that's correct.
18 Q Sometimes you made the changes, sometimes the
19 salespeople made the changes, sometimes the group leaders
20 made the changes, maybe after talking to the salespeople;
21 is that correct?
22 A That is correct.
23 Q And that was done primarily so the categories would 24 be
uniform? 25 A Would be consistent.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3171 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 Q Throughout the book?
2 A Correct.
3 Q If someone wanted to network, particularly with the
4 CD-ROM, and they wanted to find people in the health
5 services industry, you wouldn't have "doctor" listed, you
6 would have "health services" listed, so someone could find
7 them, right?
8 A Health care, yes.
9 Q All right, health care.
10 As far as you testified, you don't remember the
11 group leaders verifying any of the information that was
12 contained on the order forms, right?
13 A To my knowledge, that is correct.
14 Q All right.
15 They didn't make any telephone calls to any of
16 the people and speak to them, right, as far as you knew?
17 A Tara Green would if the salesperson was not in, the
18 telemarketer was not in who wrote the orders. When she
19 was the group leader, she would call them on occasion,
20 yes.
21 Q In order to do the clarification we talked about?
22 A That's correct.
23 Q And not to sell, right? 24 A No, she did not sell. 25 Q And she did that to service the customer; isn't that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3172 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 so?
2 A That is correct.
3 Q She didn't want it sitting around, she wanted the
4 orders processed, the plaques go out and everything done
5 as quickly as possible; is that right?
6 A That is correct.
7 Q And Tara really wanted to serve these people; isn't
8 that fair to say?
9 A Tara was a very hard worker, yes.
10 Q You indicated that Tara would listen to people -- she
11 had a division on her phone in order to liste
n to people,
12 the salespeople, right?
13 A That is correct.
14 THE COURT: Maybe we ought to take a recess now.
15 I think you will probably spend a little time on the
16 subject.
17 MR. SCHOER: Okay.
18 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we will recess
19 for lunch. Please do not discuss the case with anyone,
20 among yourselves or anyone, keep an open mind. Come to no
21 conclusions. We will recess for lunch.
22 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the
23 courtroom.) 24 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, can we discuss one brief 25 matter?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3173 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 THE COURT: Yes.
2 You can step out, Ms. Springer. You have to be
3 back prior to 1:30, please.
4 THE WITNESS: Okay.
5 (Whereupon, at this time the witness left the
6 witness stand.)
7 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I asked you a couple of
8 days ago in light of some of the cross-examination of one
9 of the customers, to instruct the jury that the government
10 was required to pay their travel expenses. You indicated
11 it wasn't the case you believed, and asked me to do some
12 research. I did.
13 I can give the Court a copy of 28 CFR, Section
14 21.1 through 21.7, your Honor, which indicates that
15 witnesses are entitled to those expenses, and that in any
16 case in which a department -- the Department of Justice is
17 a party, they are required to pay those fees.
18 THE COURT: Did you give copies of this to the
19 other side?
20 MR. WHITE: I have one other. They can look at
21 it.
22 THE COURT: I will take a look at it. If that is
23 what it says, I will instruct the jury to that effect. 24 MR. WHITE: Thank you. 25 MR. TRABULUS:
Your Honor, I would only ask if
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3174
1 your Honor were to give such an instruction, you somehow
2 make it clear that it is the government's option whether
3 to call a witness. I don't want the jury to have the
4 impression that they are obligated to call a particular
5 witness necessarily. It is the government's office who to
6 call. In other words, they might pick someone from
7 California or might pick someone from New York.
8 THE COURT: If I give the instruction I will put
9 that in it.
10 (Luncheon Recess.)
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3175
1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N.
2 THE COURT: I have looked at the rule, I guess
3 this is CFR with regard to Section 21.4 of 28 CFR
4 Chapter 1, (7/1/96) edition. It seems to say that
5 witnesses shall be paid fees for attending and their
6 expenses and transportation and housing.
7 I'm going to tell that to the jury. I'm also
8 going to say that it's the government's option to choose
9 the witnesses it chooses to call.
10 MR. SCHOER: Judge, will you give your
11 instruction to the jury first? Do you want me over here?
12 THE COURT: Wherever you want. It will only take
13 about 60 seconds.
14 (Jury enters.)
15 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the
16 jury.
17 Members of the jury, I want to advise you under
18 the rules, the applicable rules, if the government calls a
19 witness and of course it is the government's option to
20 call the witnesses it wishes to call, those
witnesses will
21 be entitled to transportation expenses to be paid for by
22 the government. The witnesses are entitled to subsistence
23 allowance if they have to stay overnight. The government 24 must furnish those expenses to a witness it chooses to 25 call.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3176 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 You may proceed.
2 CROSS-EXAMINATION
3 BY MR. SCHOER: (Continued.)
4 Q I just want to go back one step with respect to the
5 cards you received that we talked about this morning.
6 You indicated there was a code on the bottom of
7 the cards?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And that code was in very small little letters,
10 right?
11 A Yes, it was.
12 Q Do you know who determined what the code was to put
13 on a particular card?
14 A I'm not sure.
15 Q And did you ever do any
sort of statistical analysis
16 with respect to those codes?
17 A No, but I know that the codes indicated an industry,
18 mailing to an industry.
19 Q Could it have been that the codes indicated a
20 particular mailing list that the names were obtained from,
21 whether that was an industry or not an industry, some were
22 industries, some were other mailing lists?
23 A I'm not sure about that. 24 Q So you really don't know anything about the codes 25 except you were supposed to look at the codes, right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3177 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 A They were supposed to be sorted, yes.
2 Q And when you grouped the codes together -- well, when
3 you sorted the cards, you put all the codes in the same
4 packet?
5 A No.
6 Q So was there a way that you made the determination as
7 to whic
h code to put into which packet?
8 A No, they were just -- I don't know exactly -- certain
9 times you would grab two from each pile, some were like
10 pick-up sticks, put them on the ground and put them in
11 20s.
12 Q When you said he said that, that was Mr. Gordon's
13 instruction or if Mr. Gordon wasn't around Liz Sautter's
14 instruction?
15 A Yes.
16 Q That was so that various different codes would get to
17 various different salespeople?
18 A I would say. I'm not sure exactly. I would assume.
19 Q I'm not sure if you answered this question, and maybe
20 you did.
21 Did you ever do any sort of statistical analysis
22 with respect to the codes themselves and how many members
23 were accepted from a particular code? 24 A No, I did not. 25 Q Now, I think when we finished this morning I had
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL CO
URT REPORTER 3178 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 asked you, I started to ask you about that listening
2 device where you had indicated that Tara had the ability
3 to listen to the salespeople when they were on the phone.
4 A Yes, she did.
5 Q Okay.
6 You just have to wait for me to finish the
7 question.
8 A I apologize.
9 Q That's okay.
10 The purpose of that device, as far as you
11 understood, was for her to actually overhear the
12 salespeople when they were talking to customers, right?
13 A That is correct.
14 Q Not to listen in on their personal conditions, right?
15 A No.
16 Q And she did that to monitor what they were saying; is
17 that correct?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q And it was pretty standard that she told the
20 salespeople to follow the scripts verbatim, right?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q
In fact, there was a big joke at the company that she
23 always used that word "verbatim," right? 24 A I don't remember the word, but -- that could be the 25 joke that they had, that the telemarketers could have. I
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3179 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 never heard it.
2 Q Okay.
3 But the company policy, as far as you knew, were
4 that the salespeople were supposed to follow the script
5 exactly the way it was written, right?
6 A That is correct.
7 Q Not to stray from the script, right?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q Not to lie, right?
10 A That is correct.
11 Q Not to make up things?
12 A That is correct.
13 Q Okay.
14 And you heard that told to the salespeople,
15 right?
16 A At least 100 times a day, if not more.
17 Q The purpose of that listening device wa
s so that Tara
18 could monitor whether people were following that policy,
19 right?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And based on your experience there, do you know
22 whether or not people were fired for lying to customers?
23 A Yes, they were fired. 24 Q Do you know the names of any of the people that were 25 fired because they lied to customers?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3180 Springer-cross/Schoer
1 A Jack Davis.
2 Q Okay.
3 A And I forget the other name.
4 Q How about Sue Mantell, was she ever fired for lying?
5 A Yes, she was.
6 Q And Joe Parks, was he ever fired for lying?
7 A Yes, he was.
8 Q And those were people specifically that were fired
9 because they strayed from the pitch and they made
10 misrepresentations to people; is that correct?
11 A That's correct.
12 Q They were
fired because they tried to deceive people
13 in order to make sales, right?
14 A They would not follow the pitch and they were fired.
15 Q And they made misrepresentations, right?
16 A To be fired they would have had to have done that,
17 yes.
18 Q Now, in the course of your work at Who's Who
19 Worldwide, did you ever agree with anyone to defraud the
20 members?
21 A Did I ever? No, absolutely not.
22 Q Did you ever conspire with anyone to defraud people
23 through the mail? 24 A No, I did not. 25 MR. SCHOER: I have no further questions, Your
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3181 Springer-cross/Nelson
1 Honor.
2 CROSS-EXAMINATION
3 BY MR. NELSON:
4 Q Good afternoon, Ms. Springer.
5 A Good afternoon.
6 Q My name is Alan Nelson. I represent Oral Osman. You
7 might remember hi
m by the name Frank Martin. Do you
8 remember that gentleman?
9 A Yes, I do.
10 Q The gentleman sitting over there with the white hair
11 and beard.
12 A Yes.
13 Q Do you recognize Mr. Martin?
14 A Absolutely.
15 Q You testified during the course of cross-examination
16 that people change their names during the course of
17 employment because their names might suggest or sound too
18 ethnic; is that right?
19 A That's correct.
20 Q Were you aware of the fact that Frank Martin's true
21 name was Oral Frank Osman?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Would you agree that the name Oral Frank Osman was 24 not exactly the best name for purposes of telemarketing? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3182 Springer-cross/Nelson
1 Q And you were aware that he used the name Frank Martin
2 during the c
ourse of his employment?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q And you don't find anything improper or wrong or
5 fraudulent about the fact that he uses the name Frank
6 Martin, do you?
7 A No.
8 Q Now, you indicated that you had started working for
9 the company, I believe, in January of 1991; is that
10 correct?
11 A That is correct.
12 Q And that you were working in the Port Washington
13 offices, right?
14 A That's correct.
15 Q And I would like to clear up something possibly. I'm
16 just a little bit confused.
17 Were you promoted from your original position to
18 that of the review of the order forms seven months after
19 you started your employment or seven months after the
20 company moved to Lake Success?
21 A Seven months I started the employment.
22 Q And at that point in time was Who's Who still located
23 in Port Washington
or had it already moved to Lake 24 Success? 25 A I don't remember when they moved.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3183 Springer-cross/Nelson
1 Q Am I correct that Mr. Martin came to work at the
2 company after you were already working there for some
3 period of time?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And would I also be correct in stating at the time
6 that Mr. Martin came to work at the company, you had
7 already received your promotion and were assigned the
8 responsibility of the review of the order forms for the
9 qualifications of the members?
10 A I would say yes.
11 Q Now, Mr. Martin was employed in the company for
12 approximately one year and then left; is that right?
13 A That is correct.
14 Q And he was there for approximately, I believe it was
15 November of 1991 to around November of 1992; is that
1
6 right?
17 A I don't remember the dates, no.
18 Q But he wasn't there for the entire period of time you
19 were employed there, correct?
20 A No. When I first started, he was not with the
21 company.
22 Q When you first started he wasn't there and he left
23 after about a year of employment with the company; is that 24 right? 25 A That sounds accurate.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3184 Springer-cross/Nelson
1 Q I believe you testified there had been a rather large
2 turnover of personnel in the sales department during the
3 period of time that you were employed at Who's Who
4 Worldwide; is that right?
5 A That is correct.
6 Q During the period of time from say 1992 to 1994,
7 approximately how many sales personnel would you say
8 worked at Who's Who Worldwide, an estimate?
9 A You said fr
om 19 --
10 Q From '92 to '94.
11 A How many people came and left you are referring to?
12 Q Just in general, how many people worked in the sales
13 department?
14 A I could not answer that. I'm not sure.
15 Q Would it be in the hundreds?
16 A I wouldn't say in the hundreds. There were probably
17 50 or so.
18 Q Was there a turnover of personnel with different
19 people changing their positions in the sales department
20 during that period of time?
21 A Group leaders.
22 Q Let's focus on group leaders.
23 How many different group leaders would you say 24 worked at Who's Who Worldwide during the period of time 25 you were in Port Washington?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3185 Springer-cross/Nelson
1 A There was one.
2 Q And when you moved to Lake Success during the
3 one-year period
of time that Frank Martin was employed at
4 Who's Who Worldwide, how many group leaders were there as
5 best as you remember?
6 A Fifteen maybe.
7 Q So there was a fair turnover of group leaders; is
8 that correct?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q What was the most number of group leaders that would
11 work at any given period of time during the '91 to '92
12 period of time? What were the maximum number that would
13 be working at any given day?
14 A Two, three.
15 Q Two, three, four?
16 A Two, three. The most three.
17 Q And there were also group leaders who worked at the
18 Sterling Who's Who office at a later period of time once
19 that office opened?
20 A Yes.
21 Q After Mr. Martin left the company in November of
22 1992, am I correct that the company grew a fair amount
23 from '92 to '94? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And as a resu
lt of that there were more sales
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3186 Springer-cross/Nelson
1 personnel that were working in the sales department; is
2 that correct?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q And correspondingly would there have been a greater
5 number of group leaders who were supervising the sales
6 staff?
7 A Repeat the question.
8 Q Would there have been a greater number of group
9 leaders supervising this enlarged sales staff from the '92
10 to '94 period of time?
11 A I would say there would be.
12 Q And at that time would there be three or maybe four
13 group leaders working at any given period of time?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And during that '92 to '94 period of time, how many
16 different group leaders would you say worked for the
17 company?
18 A Fifteen, probably.
19 Q Do you remembe
r the names of those different people?
20 A Yes, I do.
21 Q Could you tell us who they were?
22 A There was Rosanne Patton. There was Frank Martin.
23 Q I'm talking about the period of time that Mr. Martin 24 was not working at the company, from '92 to '94. 25 A Oh, gee. Larry Dodge, D-O-D-G-E. There was Jim --
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3187 Springer-cross/Nelson
1 THE COURT: Excuse me, do you want to spell each
2 one of their names as best you can.
3 A -- McCarthy, sorry, M-C-C-A-R-T-H-Y. There was --
4 one guy Harold, Harold Sims was his phone name.
5 Q If you can't remember all the names, that's fine.
6 A There was a bunch.
7 Q People came and went and in essence as you sit here
8 today there were so many who came and went it is hard to
9 remember all of the names of the different people who
10 worked
as group leaders; is that right?
11 A That's correct.
12 Q Now, there came a point in time when Frank Martin
13 returned to the company, I believe it was around late
14 November of 1994.
15 Do you recall him coming back to work at Who's
16 Who Worldwide?
17 A I do recall.
18 Q And that would have been three or four or five months
19 before the place was closed down by the execution of the
20 search warrant; is that right?
21 A I believe I was there longer. Maybe three or four
22 months. I did remember it being longer but I can't say
23 for sure. 24 Q When he returned to the company, do you recall how 25 many group leaders there were during that period of time,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3188 Springer-cross/Nelson
1 from November of '94 to the closing down of the company,
2 let's say.
3
A Could be three.
4 Q And do you remember a group leader by the name of Ed
5 Shaffer, was he one of the group leaders?
6 A Yes, for a period of time.
7 Q And Frank was a group leader?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And Carol was a group leader?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q Any other people you remember during that period of
12 time, the three or four month period of time, that were
13 group leaders?
14 A Jim McCarthy. I believe his given name would be
15 McCarney, M-C-C-A-R-N-E-Y. His phone name would be Jim
16 McCarthy.
17 Q By the time Mr. Martin returned to the company in
18 late 1994, Sterling Who's Who was in full operation; is
19 that correct?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q And at Sterling Who's Who there were a number of
22 group leaders as well; is that correct?
23 A That's correct. 24 Q And who were the group leaders at Sterling Who's Who?<
BR> 25 A Robert Lombart, L-O-M-B-A-R-T, and Michael Esposito,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3189 Springer-cross/Nelson
1 E-S-P-O-S-I-T-O, and there was a Tim Randall.
2 Q Would I be correct that those three individuals
3 worked at, I believe, 750 Lexington Avenue in the city?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q They were not working at the Lake Success facility;
6 is that correct?
7 A Not at the time. They were at one time working
8 there.
9 Q Not at the same time that Mr. Martin was working
10 there, correct?
11 A I couldn't remember. I wouldn't be able to remember
12 if they worked together or not.
13 Q Again, because of the turnover of personnel; is that
14 correct?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q Now, at the time that Mr. Martin left Who's Who
17 Worldwide in 1992, would it be fair to say that the
1
8 benefits that were offered to members consisted primarily
19 of the registry and the plaque that was provided to the
20 various members?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q And from the period of '92 to '94 while he was not at
23 the company, am I correct that the company became much 24 more membership-oriented in that a lot of benefits were 25 being offered to the members?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3190 Springer-cross/Nelson
1 A That's correct.
2 Q And that included the CD ROM for purposes of
3 networking?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And the public affairs office began to publish
6 Tribute magazine on a quarterly basis which was sent to
7 all the members; is that right?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q And the company was able to provide to members
10 various different benefits which had been previously
11 provided s
uch as a credit card through Maryland National
12 Bank; is that correct?
13 A I believe it was MNBC, I think.
14 Q In addition, would I be correct, during that period
15 of time in addition to offering various forms of benefits
16 to members, the company began to implement a procedure
17 whereby existing members would be solicited to nominate
18 other people for inclusion in membership in the
19 organization?
20 A That is correct.
21 Q And am I correct that in Tribute magazine, nomination
22 ballots would be included to be sent to the existing
23 members? 24 A I'm not sure about that aspect of it. 25 MR. NELSON: If I may have one second, Your
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3191 Springer-cross/Nelson
1 Honor.
2 THE COURT: Yes.
3 BY MR. NELSON:
4 Q I would like to show you Gordon's Exhibit C w
hich is
5 volume four of Who's Who Executive Club Tribute, and I ask
6 you to look at the last page of the magazine.
7 Am I correct that there's a nomination ballot
8 included on the last page of the Tribute magazine?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And that volume was sent to all of the existing
11 members of Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q And am I also correct, I believe you testified
14 earlier, that included with the ballots that were sent
15 out, the solicitation letters rather that were sent out to
16 the various people who were being solicited for
17 membership, included with that was a nomination ballot; is
18 that correct?
19 A With the invoices, yes, that is correct.
20 Q Now, would I be correct that by the time that Martin
21 returned to the company in late 1994, a procedure had
22 already been implemented by the company for
the receipt
23 and the distribution of nomination ballots to the sales 24 staff for purposes of soliciting prospective members? 25 A Yes, that was in effect.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3192 Springer-cross/Nelson
1 Q So that when you would go into the administrative
2 office to sort out the mailings that came in, would I be
3 correct there would be nomination ballots and lead cards
4 that would come in as part of the regular mail?
5 A That is correct.
6 Q And you would sort out the nomination ballots as well
7 as the lead cards for purposes of eventual distribution to
8 the sales staff for soliciting new members; is that right?
9 A That is correct.
10 Q And this was in existence at the time that Mr. Martin
11 returned to the company in 1994; is that correct?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q Now, let me try and c
larify one point if possible. I
14 know Mr. Schoer went over it but just for my own
15 edification. But when the lead cards came in and they
16 were reviewed, did you participate in the review of the
17 lead cards for purposes of just breaking them down for
18 distribution every day, or was that done by different
19 people in administration on different occasions?
20 A There was many people handling those cards.
21 Q Am I correct that the main responsibility for the
22 review of the lead and nomination cards prior to their
23 distribution to the sales staff was by Liz Sautter and 24 Jean Wissing? 25 A Say that again about Jean Wissing.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3193 Springer-cross/Nelson
1 Q Was she responsible for the review of the lead cards
2 when they first came in?
3 A No.
4 Q She didn't participate
?
5 A Not in reviewing them, no.
6 Q Did she participate in the screening of them?
7 A Screening of them, no.
8 Q Did she have anything to do at all with the review of
9 the cards before they were sent to the sales staff?
10 A No.
11 Q When the cards were distributed to or when they were
12 put in this drawer that you were speaking about when they
13 were locked up, were the nomination cards put separate
14 from the lead cards?
15 A Yes, they were.
16 Q And are you aware of what the procedure was for the
17 distribution of the nomination cards as opposed to the
18 lead cards?
19 A They were handed directly to the salesperson from
20 Mr. Gordon.
21 Q Okay.
22 So Mr. Gordon himself directly handed out the
23 nomination cards for purposes of the solicitation of 24 prospective new members; is that right? 25 A That is correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3194 Springer-cross/Nelson
1 Q Am I correct, and I don't know if you are aware of
2 this, but would I be correct in stating that Mr. Gordon
3 gave the nomination cards to the individuals who he
4 considered to be the more experienced and better sales
5 personnel?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And that was because to some extent the fact that an
8 existing member had nominated somebody for membership in
9 the organization, they had to some extent had already been
10 pre-approved by an existing member; is that correct?
11 A I would say that would be correct.
12 Q And in addition, since that person was pre-approved
13 by an existing member, it might well be somebody who would
14 be easier for a more experienced salesperson to make a
15 sale to; is that correct?
16 A That is correct.
17 Q No
w, I believe you testified that as part of your
18 duties and responsibilities you would review the order
19 forms when they came back to you for purposes of a
20 determination as to whether or not the individual was
21 qualified for membership in the organization; is that
22 right?
23 A That is correct. 24 Q And in addition to that you would review the type of 25 position the person had in order to make a determination
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3195 Springer-cross/Nelson
1 as to what classification or category the person should be
2 put in in the registry or the CD ROM; is that right?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q Now, I believe you indicated that you had
5 conversations with Mr. Gordon on occasion where he had
6 advised you after you would review -- withdrawn.
7 Am I correct, there were occasions you would
8
review the order forms and find people who you personally
9 felt were not necessarily qualified for membership?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And you would speak to Mr. Gordon with respect to
12 that; is that right?
13 A That's correct.
14 Q And I believe you testified that Mr. Gordon advised
15 you on occasion that those individuals or some individuals
16 should be included in the registry; is that right?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q And I believe you indicated as well that --
19 withdrawn.
20 Am I correct that you did that, or when you did
21 that you would note on occasion on the order forms as per
22 Bruce Gordon?
23 A Yes, I would do that as well as in the database. 24 Q And the reason you would do that is so that if 25 Mr. Gordon came to you at a later time and said, Wendi,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3196 Spring
er-cross/Nelson
1 why is this person in the registry? Your job is to screen
2 these people and review them. How did you let this person
3 get through? You could say, Mr. Gordon, you told me to
4 let this person be in here and marked on it per Bruce
5 Gordon, in case that day came, that I'd be able to show it
6 to you; is that right?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q That's because Mr. Gordon had the tendency at times
9 to not remember telling somebody else at an earlier period
10 of time, right?
11 A To say the least, yes.
12 Q Would I be correct that you did what Mr. Gordon asked
13 you to do because you were concerned that if you didn't do
14 what he asked you to do it was on the point of potentially
15 losing your employment or being fined some sum of money by
16 him, docking pay or something along his lines?
17 A I didn't question his authority, no.
1
8 Q You didn't question his authority because he was a
19 rather authoritative figure in that company; is that not
20 so?
21 A He was not the easiest man at times, correct.
22 Q You would not want Mr. Gordon to be yelling at you;
23 is that right? 24 A Oh, absolutely not. 25 Q And Mr. Gordon had the occasion to yell at either
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3197 Springer-cross/Nelson
1 members of the sales staff or other departments on quite a
2 few occasions?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And being on the end of that is not something that
5 another person working in that company would particularly
6 like to do?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q And the end result of that -- quite frankly, I
9 shouldn't say that, but people would be terminated when he
10 vented his venom on people?
11 MR. TRABULUS: Objection to form.
12 THE COURT: Strike out the question as to form.
13 The jury is instructed to disregard it.
14 MR. NELSON: I'm sorry.
15 BY MR. NELSON:
16 Q Now, I believe you also indicated, and correct me if
17 I'm wrong, that in the preparation of those order forms
18 that Mr. Gordon had asked you to prepare you didn't feel
19 that you were deceiving anybody by the preparation of
20 those forms; is that right?
21 A I did not like changing peoples' titles.
22 Q But you didn't do that with the intention of trying
23 to deceive or to defraud anybody, did you? 24 A No, I didn't. 25 Q And you did that for purposes of satisfying what
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3198 Springer-cross/Nelson
1 Mr. Gordon had asked you to do; is that right?
2 A That is correct.
3 Q And when there eventually came a point in time when
4 you were questioned by federal law enforcement authorities
5 concerning your conduct, you didn't feel that you did
6 anything improper or wrong; is that right?
7 A That is correct.
8 Q Now, during the period of time that you were doing
9 this screening, am I correct that the sales staff was
10 aware that you were doing some form of screening of what
11 was taking place because on occasion you would send back
12 the order forms for purposes of acquiring more information
13 about an individual's employment?
14 A That is correct.
15 Q So they were aware that you were looking at these
16 order forms in order to evaluate both the person's
17 qualifications and what the person's job was; is that
18 correct?
19 A That's correct.
20 Q So each member of the sales staff was fully aware of
21 what it was that you were doing during that period of time
22
for purposes of review; is that correct?
23 A That is correct. 24 Q And they weren't aware that Mr. Gordon was advising 25 you to modify things because they weren't privy to the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3199 Springer-cross/Nelson
1 discussions you were having with them; is that right?
2 A The only people that would know that would be the
3 group leaders.
4 Q And the group leaders, what they were aware of was
5 the fact that what you would do is submit to them the form
6 for purposes of reviewing specific job title or
7 classification that a person had; is that right?
8 A Repeat the question?
9 Q When you returned the forms to the group leaders,
10 that was the purpose of the group leaders then going to
11 the sales personnel in order to have the sales personnel
12 either contact the prospective customer to acqui
re more
13 information for their classification, or for purposes of
14 finding out where exactly that person should be
15 classified, correct?
16 A That is correct.
17 Q And the group leaders, just as you had been doing,
18 were following the instructions of what they were required
19 to do as part of their functions by Mr. Gordon; is that
20 correct?
21 A That is true.
22 MR. NELSON: Thank you. I have no further
23 questions. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 (Continued.)
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3200 Springer-cross/Lee
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. LEE:
3 Q Good afternoon, Ms. Springer.
4 A Good afternoon.
5 Q My name is Winston Lee, L-E-E. Winston Lee.
6 A Yes.
7 Q I'm the attorney who represents Laura White.
8 Now, you also knew her as Laura Winters when she
9 was on the job; is that correct?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q Now, I believe as Mr. Nelson had asked you, would you
12 agree her adaptation for the purposes of the job with the
13 name Winters was because of the ethnic connotation of the
14 name White. Would that be a fair connotation by me?
15 A Yes, it would be.
16 Q You stated that you worked with this corporation
17 Who's Who from 22 to 24?
18 A 22 to 24.
19 Q And as the corporation grew, you grew along with it,
20 your responsibilities, your authority grew also; is that
21 right?
22 A That's correct.
23 Q And you stated that your feeling of disappointment at 24 no longer working there was that you missed your fellow 25 employees, your colleagues at job, right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3201 Springer-cross/Lee
1 A Yes, I did.
2 Q An
d you missed them because in the course of your
3 years there, you found them to be decent, upstanding
4 people that you liked?
5 A For the most part.
6 Q And you knew Ms. White?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Did you like her?
9 A Yes, I did.
10 Q She is a nice lady?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Very caring, giving person? Was she known as "mom"
13 on the job? Some people would call her mom?
14 A I personally didn't.
15 Q You heard other people call her mom?
16 A No.
17 Q Sorry, Laura.
18 Would it be a fair statement that you really came
19 to be devoted and committed to the job that you were
20 doing?
21 A Absolutely.
22 Q And you really believed in what you were doing?
23 A Yes, I did. 24 Q And you were proud of it? 25 A Yes, I was.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3202 Springer-cro
ss/Lee
1 Q And Laura White -- you had been there for several
2 years based on your interaction. Based on your
3 interaction, did Laura White appear to share her
4 commitment and enthusiasm to the job?
5 A She was dedicated.
6 Q To what she was doing?
7 A Yes, she was dedicated.
8 Q Now, I just wanted to clarify, it may not have come
9 out in a clear fashion, but as I understand it Barbara
10 Walters was a person who was given a complementary
11 membership in Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?
12 A Yes, that's correct.
13 Q Am I correct there had been a discussion --
14 withdrawn.
15 Someone from Who's Who had spoken to her on the
16 phone, correct? That's your understanding?
17 A I don't know.
18 Q Did you have any information? Did you hear anything
19 that someone from the organization had spoken to her
20 actually?
21 A I don't recall.
22 MR. LEE: Can we have that 3500 material?
23 MS. SCOTT: Yes. 24 MR. LEE: Thank you. 25 BY MR. LEE:
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3203 Springer-cross/Lee
1 Q Ms. Springer, I'll place some documents before you,
2 and you see they have some stickers on them, right?
3 A Yes.
4 Q I think I'm missing one.
5 I have 15-E. You see it says 3500-15-B?
6 A Yes.
7 Q 3500-15-C, that one?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And 3500-15-E?
10 A Right. Yes.
11 Q Now, you see also, I flipped over in a packet what I
12 had shown you as 15-C.
13 A Yes.
14 Q And on the other side you see something that says
15 15-D?
16 A Yes.
17 Q I will remove them.
18 And I just want you to take a moment to kind of
19 look at where I'm indicating on these documents and see if
20 it helps you recall something.
21 Do you remember that somewhere around the time of
22 around April 19th of 1995 you may have had a telephone
23 conversation with someone, perhaps an Inspector Martin T. 24 Biegelman? 25 A Yep.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3204 Springer-cross/Lee
1 Q And his initials would be MTB?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And you had more than one conversation and I believe
4 you had a series of conversations. But also there came a
5 time when you actually spoke to Mr. Ron White at your
6 domicile -- I'll not say where it is. Do you recall that
7 it was about July 30th of 1996? Do you recall that?
8 A At my company you are talking about, the company I
9 was employed for?
10 Q Well, the Hicksville domicile.
11 A Yes, umm-hmm.
12 Q And you recall that.
13 Was there a person ther
e in addition to Mr. Ron
14 White? Was there a Postal Inspector Alfonse Pagano whose
15 initials would be AP?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Do you see that gentleman there in the red tie and
18 gray suit?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Do you remember him?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Now, I just want to now direct your attention to what
23 I was asking you about, this possibility that someone 24 actually from the company had actually had a discussion 25 with Ms. Walters. I want to take a moment first to see if
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3205 Springer-cross/Lee
1 that refreshes your recollection (handing.)
2 A I can't read the handwriting.
3 Q Oh, I can't make it out.
4 Does it appear to you -- you can't make that out,
5 whatever it is?
6 A "Gordon said --"
7 Q I'm not asking you to read it. I just want to ask
8 y
ou to look at it.
9 A (Perusing.) Yes.
10 Q And then also, finally --
11 A Now I remember it completely.
12 Q Now, I'm looking at 3500-15-F. Do you see that?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And my question is, do you recall that you had an
15 understanding that when you put in, when Barbara Walters
16 was offered a complimentary membership someone from the
17 company had actually spoken to her, correct?
18 A That I don't recall --
19 Q Well, was that your understanding, somebody told you
20 that? What do you recall, ma'am?
21 A I remember Liz being asked to get out a wall plaque
22 to Barbara Walters. I remember the information being put
23 into the computer system by Liz Sautter. 24 Q It is a fact, just to establish it so we're clear, we 25 should be concise here, Ms. Walters was given a
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3206
Springer-cross/Lee
1 complimentary membership; is that correct?
2 A Yes, that's correct.
3 Q Do you recall telling Inspector Biegelman that
4 Mr. Gordon had said that they had called, someone from the
5 company had actually called Barbara Walters and said that
6 she actually declined membership?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q So she had declined membership, but an administration
9 decision made by Mr. Gordon or someone, although she
10 declined and chose not to pay for it, they would send her
11 a complimentary membership?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q Do you recall who it was that had this conversation
14 with Ms. Walters, was it Ms. Winters, Laura Weitz?
15 A I don't remember.
16 Q Did you hear scuttlebutt that Laura Weitz was on a
17 particular day that the office was in an uproar and she
18 was actually pulled off the bathroom off of the toilet to
19 speak to Barbara Walters, they actually went in there and
20 asked her to come out because Barbara Walters was on the
21 phone and she came out. Did you hear that uproar in the
22 office? Did you hear about it?
23 A I believe I heard something to that effect. 24 MR. LEE: I have no further questions, Judge. 25 THE COURT: Okay.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3207 Springer-cross/Geduldig
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. GEDULDIG:
3 Q Good afternoon, Ms. Springer.
4 I represent Annette Haley. You know Annette?
5 A Yes, I do.
6 Q Can you tell me if Annette had any other name other
7 than Annette, what she used when she was at Who's Who?
8 A That's her name.
9 Q So she didn't have any kind of an alias at all?
10 A No, she did not.
11 Q You gave some testimony earlier on today about or you
1
2 were asked some questions rather earlier on today about an
13 application that had been done in crayon. Do you recall
14 that?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And I think you may have been asked do you know two
17 individuals named Rob Lamb and Michael Powers?
18 A Yes, I do know them.
19 Q How do you know them?
20 A They worked in the Lake Success office before they
21 were sent to Manhattan.
22 Q And while they were at the Lake Success office, what
23 kind of jobs did they have there? 24 A At first they were both salespeople and then the 25 position moved up to group leader.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3208 Springer-cross/Geduldig
1 Q And after they were transferred to the Sterling
2 office in New York City, do you know what their jobs were
3 at that location?
4 A They were group leaders.
5 Q Had you
ever heard that they accepted an application
6 for membership that was done in crayon and submitted by a
7 child?
8 A They accepted a lot of things that should not have
9 been accepted. And crayon, if I ever saw crayon on that I
10 would not go through. So I believe I heard something, I
11 don't know if it was in here or in the witness room and
12 overheard something, but I did overhear something, yes.
13 Q Based on the experience you had working with them,
14 would it be surprising to you to learn they would accept a
15 membership application from a child done in crayon?
16 A It would not surprise me.
17 Q Would it surprise you to learn they were never
18 arrested for anything they did while working at Sterling
19 or Who's Who Worldwide in Lake Success?
20 A I thought they were arrested.
21 Q Now, you gave some testimony about Ms. Sautter
22 earlier on today
.
23 A That's correct. 24 Q I think you said that you would characterize her as 25 Mr. Gordon's right-hand person, right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3209 Springer-cross/Geduldig
1 A Absolutely.
2 Q And she was, of all the individuals that worked at
3 the company, other than Mr. Gordon, would you say she was
4 the person most to know about everything that was going
5 on?
6 A She knew everything about the company.
7 Q And if there were any misrepresentations being made
8 at the company, she would have known about it?
9 A She would have.
10 Q And if anything that was done improperly was going
11 on, she would have known about it?
12 A Yes, she would.
13 Q Do you know if she was ever arrested?
14 A I don't know if she was ever arrested. I don't think
15 -- I thought she was arrested.
16 Q Okay.
17 A But she was not.
18 Q You don't see her today?
19 A Oh, no.
20 Q There was another name that might have been
21 mentioned, you heard the name Debra Benjamin?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Could you tell us what her job functions were -- 24 withdrawn. 25 Could you tell us if she worked at Lake Success
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3210 Springer-cross/Geduldig
1 operation or the Sterling operation in Manhattan?
2 A She worked at the Lake Success.
3 Q Could you tell us what her job functions were at Lake
4 Success?
5 A Public relations.
6 Q Would she be in a position of authority comparable to
7 Liz Sautter, above her or below her, would you say?
8 A She would not be -- Liz would be a more valuable
9 employee than Debra Benjamin.
10 Q So if you were giving them numbers, Liz Sautter
would
11 be number two and Debra Benjamin would be below number
12 two?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Was she your supervisor while working at the Lake
15 Success operation?
16 A No, she was not.
17 Q Did she know about things going on in the company in
18 a general sense?
19 A Yes, she did.
20 Q I think you testified at Lake Success things were
21 very much compartmentalized, were they?
22 A They were.
23 Q One part of the company, the sales force, was not 24 allowed to know what was going on in administration and so 25 on; is that right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3211 Springer-cross/Geduldig
1 A That's correct.
2 Q Was she an individual who might have information
3 regarding different departments within the Lake Success
4 operation?
5 A Repeat the question?
6 Q Was Debra
Benjamin an individual who may have had
7 information about what was going on at the Lake Success
8 operation in the different departments?
9 A Yes, she would.
10 Q Do you know if she was ever arrested?
11 A I don't believe so. I'm not sure.
12 Q Now, you testified I think on direct examination when
13 the government was asking you some questions about a
14 fellow named Graham or Gross?
15 A Yes.
16 Q I think his name was either Martin Graham or Gross.
17 A Yes.
18 Q And I think you were present at the offices when he
19 was arrested at the offices; is that correct?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q Can you tell us approximately when it was that he was
22 arrested?
23 A I could not tell you. 24 Q Would I not be correct in saying that when he was 25 arrested Annette Haley was not yet an employee of Who's
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3212 Springer-cross/Geduldig
1 Who Worldwide at Lake Success?
2 A I'm not sure if she was working there or if she was
3 not working there.
4 Q But there are records to indicate, to your knowledge,
5 who the employees were at Worldwide Lake Success at the
6 time?
7 A There would be an employment file, yes.
8 Q The salespeople when they came into work every day,
9 did they have to sign in?
10 A No, they did not.
11 Q How would it be recorded that they showed up for
12 work?
13 A The group leaders would go around.
14 Q Okay.
15 Now, I believe you testified on an earlier
16 occasion that you were aware of a sales -- let me withdraw
17 that. That there was an understanding that you were aware
18 that there was an understanding among some salespeople
19 while you were at Who's Who Lake Success whereby t
hey
20 would swap their sales; is that right?
21 A There was some understanding. I can't say I
22 overheard things, but it was more -- people that were
23 there a longer period of time would have helped each 24 other. 25 Q Okay.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3213 Springer-cross/Geduldig
1 And they did that if one particular salesperson
2 wasn't making quota that week and another particular
3 salesperson was over quota that week, they might make an
4 arrangement between themselves to make certain that both
5 of those salespeople made quota; is that correct?
6 A It could be correct, yes.
7 Q And that was done because there was a very strict
8 sales quota imposed by Mr. Gordon?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And even if you had been there a long time, if you
11 failed to make your sales quota for any extended period of
12 time you would be fired; is that correct?
13 A That's correct.
14 Q Now, that was not an understanding that was known to
15 Mr. Gordon, to your knowledge; is that right?
16 A Repeat the question?
17 Q This understanding whereby salespeople swapped sales,
18 that was amongst themselves, right?
19 A It would be amongst themselves because if he ever
20 found out about it, all hell would break loose, so yes.
21 Q He would be opposed to that?
22 A Absolutely.
23 Q He would not have liked that? 24 A No. 25 Q If he had found out salespeople were doing that he
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3214 Springer-cross/Geduldig
1 might have fired the person who made the quota and the
2 person who was taking the swap?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q If you look at the order forms that you were shown, I
5
think, when the government had given you some of those
6 documents, some of those order forms contained the names
7 of the salesperson that makes that sale; is that right?
8 A That is correct.
9 Q If that salesperson was taking that sale from another
10 salesman, if there was a sales swap in effect, you could
11 not look at that form and know who it was that actually
12 really made that sale; am I correct?
13 A If it was a swapping situation?
14 Q Right.
15 A No.
16 Q You couldn't know?
17 A I wouldn't be able to tell, I don't believe, no.
18 Q If there was a code on there of any sort that would
19 have been a code worked out between the two salespeople?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q It would not have been a code known to you or to the
22 group leaders, right?
23 A Right. 24 Q So looking at those forms is not necessarily -- 25 looking
at the orders forms with the salesman's name on
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3215 Springer-cross/Geduldig
1 it, is not necessarily proof positive that the person, the
2 salesperson's name that appears on the form is the one
3 that actually made the sale. Is that fair to say?
4 A That is correct.
5 Q Do you want to add something else?
6 A If the handwriting -- I determined a lot of things by
7 the handwriting, so if you're saying if it was a swapping
8 thing, somebody would just give somebody an order because
9 they weren't making sales, it would obviously be written
10 in the person's handwriting.
11 Q You say that sometimes if I was a salesman I might
12 catch the sale on the phone, make some scratch notes,
13 right?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And the policy of the company was you stayed at the
16 phone, correct?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q So at the end of the day I have four or five or six
19 sales, I take my scratch notes and I sit down with them
20 and I might do up all of these order forms?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And if I sit down with you and you, you know, you are
23 bitching and moaning and say, gee, I didn't make quota 24 this week and I say, I'm over by two, I'll give you my two 25 sales, here are my notes, you would write up the order,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3216 Springer-cross/Geduldig
1 that's the way it would work?
2 A That's the way it would work, but I would say that
3 the salespeople would not give it out of the kindness of
4 their heart, they would want something in return.
5 Q Give you the commission?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And I would give you my notes, write up the order and
8 it would appear that you ma
de the sale?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And you and I would meet for a drink after work
11 someplace and cut up whatever the commission might be?
12 A I don't know how they worked it, if it happened, but
13 either way, I guess.
14 Q And you, or if it was a group leader or if Liz
15 Sautter was checking through these forms, they would never
16 have any way to that you and I had worked out this
17 arrangement?
18 A No.
19 MR. GEDULDIG: I think that's it, Judge. Thank
20 you.
21 THE COURT: Anybody else?
22 (Continued.)
23 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3217 Springer-cross/Neville
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. NEVILLE:
3 Q Good afternoon.
4 A Good afternoon.
5 Q When a salesperson would speak to a prospective
6 customer on the phone, sometimes the sale wouldn
't be made
7 by that individual who was first talking to that
8 prospective customer; is that right?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q And that salesperson might call back the next day or
11 two days later, right?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And even after calling back one or two days later,
14 that person still may not be home or the person wouldn't
15 be interested in speaking at that time, something like
16 that?
17 A That is correct.
18 Q And then there were times, weren't there, when after
19 a fashion, after a certain amount of time, whether it be
20 an exact amount or two days or something, these cards
21 would get recycled or redistributed to other salespeople;
22 is that right?
23 A That's correct. 24 Q Wouldn't it also be the case at times when one 25 salesperson would give the pitch to this prospective
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFF
ICIAL COURT REPORTER 3218 Springer-cross/Neville
1 customer and the customer would hear the whole pitch from
2 that first caller, salesperson, and the prospective
3 customer wouldn't purchase at that time?
4 A That is correct.
5 Q And let's say then that sales card remains with that
6 same salesperson and a week later that same salesperson
7 calls and that prospective customer says I can't talk now
8 or I want to wait until my wife gets home or something,
9 call me back. And they just have to call them back,
10 right?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Now, what would happen then if that same salesperson
13 let's say the next day calls at the time that the person
14 said to call when his wife would be home and the person
15 says, I'm sorry, I want to talk to you, I'll call you
16 right back and would you give me your number. The person
17 then, the prospectiv
e customer then calls back and the
18 salesperson who had been making all of these calls gets
19 busy with another call, let's say. What would happen to
20 that call of that prospective customer who has called back
21 ready to talk about a possible sale?
22 A It would go to another telemarketer, another
23 salesperson. 24 Q So if that person ends up buying the membership with 25 that final call, they may buy it with a salesperson who is
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3219 Springer-cross/Neville
1 speaking to them for the first time?
2 A That is correct.
3 Q And under the rules of the company, the people or
4 other person who participated in the pitch and the sale of
5 this membership would participate in the commission?
6 A That is correct.
7 Q That was the official rule and that's how it was
8 supposed to wo
rk?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q And that's how it did work a lot of times, right?
11 A Correct.
12 Q But also it didn't work at times where people would
13 take credit for a sale even though they are not the ones
14 that gave the original pitch?
15 A All the time.
16 Q So as Mr. Geduldig was saying to you, on those order
17 forms that were filled out by the salesperson, that the
18 man or woman salesperson who would write out the order
19 form wouldn't necessarily be the person who first gave the
20 pitch three or four calls ago or spoke to the person the
21 second or third time the person was spoken to. There
22 would be no way you could tell really who spoke all the
23 way through to that person who bought the membership, 24 right? 25 A I could tell by the person who was on top of it, the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3220 Springer-cross/Neville
1 top exec.
2 THE COURT: You mean where it says account
3 number, account number one, account two, and the names
4 would be the salesperson?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 THE COURT: But if there were two names, there
7 would be two salespersons?
8 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
9 BY MR. NEVILLE:
10 Q But if there was an order form with just one name up
11 there, you wouldn't be able to tell, would you, how many
12 other, if any other, salespeople had spoken to that
13 prospective customer?
14 A No, I would not.
15 Q Now, at Who's Who Worldwide there were a number of
16 men with the first name Michael, right?
17 A Yes -- could be. At the same time, I'm not sure.
18 Q Michael Powers?
19 A That's correct.
20 Q Was he also known as Michael Esposito?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Michael Maxes?
23 A Yes. 24 Q Michael Lane? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3221 Springer-cross/Neville
1 Q Now, you worked at Who's Who Worldwide for a number
2 of years and you got to know some of these people who also
3 worked there for a number of years quite well; is that
4 right?
5 A That's true.
6 Q Friendly with some people, maybe not as friendly as
7 others, like some of us at any job?
8 A That's true.
9 Q You knew Scott Michaelson?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Good salesman?
12 A He was a hard worker.
13 Q And Scott was somebody who did a lot of good work and
14 as far as you were concerned was doing his job as he was
15 told?
16 A As far as I could see, yes.
17 Q Now, when you yourself were working there, you said
18 that at times you would do things because Mr. Gordon would
19 tell you to do them that maybe you wouldn't do on your
20 own?
21 A Yes.
22 Q You also spoke about the compartmentalizing of the
23 different departments in the company, how everybody was 24 kept separate. 25 A That's true.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3222 Springer-cross/Neville
1 Q And if somebody strayed from a pitch, they would get
2 potentially excoriated, yelled at, humiliated by
3 Mr. Gordon?
4 A Oh, yes.
5 Q Were you ever a witness to any meetings with
6 salespeople where Mr. Gordon would single out a
7 salesperson and play back a tape of a pitch that he
8 thought was wrong and just humiliate that person in front
9 of everybody else?
10 A I was not present, no.
11 Q Did you ever hear something about that?
12 A I'm sure I heard it through the walls. There were
13
loud sales meetings that went on quite a few times. I'm
14 not quite sure if there were people ruled out, I'm sure
15 there was. Everybody has been made an example.
16 Q Is that what happened, a lot of people were made
17 examples of?
18 A There were a lot of people made examples. There was
19 -- I'm not going to -- I'll get into a tangent and we'll
20 be here until next week.
21 Q Don't want you to do that. I want to let you go
22 home.
23 A Because it seems that I talk so much, some people 24 seem to say. 25 Q Do you realize Scott Michaelson is here in this
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3223 Springer-cross/Neville
1 courtroom because he's charged with a federal crime?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Do you realize that he's charged with mail fraud?
4 A I overheard that. I didn't know it was from mail
5 fraud, no.
6 Q Did Scott Michaelson have anything to do with the
7 mails at Who's Who Worldwide?
8 A No, he did not.
9 Q Do you know that Scott Michaelson is here charged
10 with wire fraud?
11 A Yes.
12 Q That means deceiving people over the telephone?
13 A Yes.
14 Q As far as you're concerned, in your experience with
15 Scott Michaelson, should he be sitting here on trial for
16 wire fraud?
17 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
18 THE COURT: Sustained.
19 MR. NELSON: I have no further questions. Thank
20 you.
21 THE COURT: When I said to you, when I asked you
22 about the name of the salesperson being on the top right
23 portion of the order form where it says "account number," 24 it actually says account exec number one and account exec 25 number two; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3224<
BR> Springer-cross/Dunn
1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 THE COURT: And there would be two lines for the
3 names of the salesperson; is that correct?
4 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
5 CROSS-EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. DUNN:
7 Q Good afternoon, Ms. Springer.
8 A Good afternoon.
9 Q My name is Thomas Dunn and I represent Steve Rubin.
10 Do you know Steve Rubin?
11 A Yes, I do.
12 Q I think you are at the end of the tunnel here so
13 hopefully I'll only have a few questions for you just to
14 touch on some things. I might have missed something.
15 You were sorting these nomination cards and these
16 lead cards when they came in, correct?
17 A Not all the time. I did do it on occasion, yes.
18 Q And if you had seen one that was written in crayon,
19 would it be fair to say you would have tossed it?
20 A Absolutely.
21 Q Would it also be fair
to say that the administration,
22 it was your understanding Sterling Who's Who was not to
23 appear to be run from strictly as an administrative 24 standpoint as Who's Who Worldwide? 25 A There was no administration staff in Sterling. There
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3225 Springer-cross/Dunn
1 was no one in the public relations department, the
2 salespeople and the group leaders.
3 Q So it would be fair to say that, in your view, things
4 seemed to run in a more formalized way out at the Lake
5 Success location?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Would it be fair to say that Steve Rubin was
8 considered a good salesman?
9 A He wrote a lot of orders, yes.
10 Q So would it be fair to say then if he wrote a lot of
11 orders, he was a good salesman?
12 A I would -- he enjoyed talking to people and his
13 orders were ver
y thorough. So I would say he did enjoy
14 what he was doing and he was a good salesperson.
15 Q So it would be fair to say he was enthusiastic about
16 his job?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Would it also be fair to say, based on your
19 experience, he was one of the first ones in and last ones
20 out at Who's Who Worldwide?
21 A Besides Martin Gross, yes.
22 Q When you say there was a lot of information and
23 writing on some of his orders, did that reflect 24 information about the people he was speaking with? 25 A A lot of information, yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3226 Springer-cross/Dunn
1 Q So he was the type of person that seemed from his
2 orders, would it be fair to say, you could draw the
3 conclusion that he was trying to get a lot of information
4 from the people he was speaking with?
5 A He got m
uch too much information. He couldn't fit
6 half of the information that he wrote on his order forms.
7 Q Based upon the fact that there was too much
8 information on these orders forms and the fact that he
9 stayed on the phone quite a bit, did it seem to you based
10 on those things that he really believed in Who's Who
11 Worldwide?
12 Yes or no?
13 A I can't speak for him, but from his performance I
14 would say that he took his job seriously.
15 Q You were at Who's Who Worldwide, you started in
16 January of 1991; is that correct?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q And a little over four years later in March of 1995
19 the United States Government came in and raided the
20 offices at Lake Success; is that correct?
21 A At Sterling as well, yes.
22 Q And there were a number of arrests; is that right?
23 A That's correct. 24 Q And basically you end
ed your job at that point; is 25 that right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3227 Springer-cross/Dunn
1 A I would never go back there. My job was ended, yes.
2 Q So after a period of about four years you were no
3 longer with Who's Who; is that right?
4 A That is correct.
5 Q And in those four years, as I think Mr. Nelson may
6 have asked you, during that four-year period plus a couple
7 months while you were at Who's Who, there were hundreds of
8 salespeople that came and went; is that correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And you mentioned at various times there were two or
11 three leaders, but over the four plus years a number of
12 those group leaders came and went too; is that correct?
13 A That is correct.
14 Q Would it be fair so say during those four plus years
15 you gave your heart and soul to Who's Who Worldwide?
16 A To put it bluntly, yes.
17 Q Would it be fair to say that you really believed in
18 what you were doing for the company?
19 A Yes, I enjoyed my job.
20 Q Would it be fair to say based on your observations
21 and experience there were some salespeople that really
22 enjoyed what they were doing? Would that be fair to say?
23 A Yes. 24 Q Would it be fair to say during that four year plus 25 time with Who's Who, that you considered -- withdrawn.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3228 Springer-cross/Dunn
1 During this four plus years at Who's Who, you
2 knew or came to know Liz Sautter; is that correct?
3 A Very well, yes.
4 Q Would you consider her a friend during that period of
5 time?
6 A She was my best friend.
7 Q Now, during this four plus years that you were at
8 Who's Who Worldwide, y
ou didn't believe you committed any
9 criminal act; is that correct?
10 A No, I did not believe that.
11 Q But after the raid, you decided immediately to look
12 for another job; is that correct?
13 A Four or five hours later, yeah.
14 Q And in fact, there came a time, months -- withdrawn.
15 Approximately October 30, 1996, do you remember
16 that you testified in the grand jury?
17 A Yes.
18 Q In the Eastern District of New York.
19 And do you remember being asked or advised that
20 you had the right to an attorney?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And that you could have that attorney stand outside
23 the grand jury room when you were testifying? 24 A I believe so, yes. 25 Q And do you remember being asked "do you have a lawyer
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3229 Springer-cross/Dunn
1 with you today?" <
BR> 2 A I remember saying I don't need one.
3 Q Right. You remember saying that, is that a fact?
4 A That's a fact.
5 Q And you believed you didn't need one?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q Because you did not do anything wrong?
8 A I did not do anything wrong.
9 Q Now, subsequent to the raid, you had a number of
10 conversations with Liz Sautter; is that correct?
11 A Yes, I did.
12 Q Your best friend, right?
13 A I believed that in my heart, yes.
14 Q And you were upset with the fact that the United
15 States Government had entered into the Who's Who Worldwide
16 premises and the Sterling premises and arrested not only
17 workers but some of your friends, correct?
18 A I was upset at the whole situation, yes.
19 Q And would it be fair to say that you challenged Liz
20 Sautter on certain things that she knew that even as her
21 best friend she neve
r told you about; is that right?
22 A Yes.
23 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, Your Honor. 24 THE COURT: Overruled. 25 BY MR. DUNN:
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3230 Springer-cross/Dunn
1 Q That's correct?
2 A That is very correct.
3 Q She kept you in the dark?
4 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, Your Honor.
5 THE COURT: She kept you in the dark about what,
6 Mr. Dunn?
7 BY MR. DUNN:
8 Q She kept you in the dark about a number of things
9 concerning the operations of Who's Who Worldwide, correct?
10 A Yes, that's correct.
11 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, Your Honor.
12 THE COURT: On what ground?
13 MR. TRABULUS: May we approach?
14 THE COURT: No, it's not necessary.
15 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, implicitly it is
16 calling for hearsay from Liz Sautter and we don't know
17 what was said
or when.
18 THE COURT: Whatever Liz Sautter said is hearsay
19 in the connection of the employment of the company.
20 MR. TRABULUS: It depends when she said it, Your
21 Honor.
22 THE COURT: When this conversation took place,
23 was Liz Sautter still an employee of the company? 24 THE WITNESS: On many occasions. 25 THE COURT: What?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3231 Springer-cross/Dunn
1 THE WITNESS: On many occasions.
2 THE COURT: But on some occasions she was not an
3 employee of the company?
4 THE WITNESS: Are we referring to the legitimacy
5 of the company?
6 THE COURT: Referring to the conversations,
7 whatever they were, that Mr. Dunn is alluding to and I
8 will tell you I don't know what conversations he's
9 alluding to.
10 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm not sure either.
11 THE COUR
T: If you are not sure, say so. Ask him
12 to make it clearer. If you don't, I will.
13 THE WITNESS: Yes. I would like for you to make
14 it clearer.
15 MR. DUNN: Your Honor, I'll just rely on the
16 questions I asked.
17 THE COURT: Good thinking, Mr. Dunn.
18 MR. DUNN: I have no further questions, Your
19 Honor.
20 (Continued.)
21
22
23 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3232 Springer-cross/Wallenstein
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. WALLENSTEIN:
3 Q Good afternoon, Ms. Springer.
4 A Good afternoon.
5 Q Are you acquainted with Martin Reffsin?
6 A Absolutely not.
7 Q Have you ever heard that name?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Have you ever seen Mr. Reffsin before today?
10 A Many occasions.
11 Q And that would be in the office, correct?
12 A That is correct.
13 Q Would it be a fair statement that you do not know him
14 other than to say hello in passing?
15 A That is correct.
16 Q Would it be a fair statement that on the occasions
17 when you did see him, he was in the office as Mr. Gordon's
18 accountant or the company's accountant and was having
19 conversations with Mr. Gordon?
20 A That is correct.
21 Q Would it be a fair statement that on a number of
22 occasions when Mr. Reffsin was present with Mr. Gordon, he
23 and Mr. Gordon fought? 24 A Oh, yes. 25 Q And would it be fair to characterize those fights as
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3233 Springer-cross/Wallenstein
1 Mr. Gordon screaming at Mr. Reffsin?
2 A Mr. Gordon had a tendency of screaming, yes.
3 Q And would it be fair to say that you could hear those
4 fights whethe
r the door was opened or closed or wherever
5 they happened to be?
6 A That is correct.
7 Q Would it also be fair to say that Mr. Gordon on
8 occasion would tell Mr. Reffsin that nobody tells me how
9 to run my business or words to that effect?
10 A He said that to everybody.
11 Q And he did say that to Mr. Reffsin, did he not?
12 A I'm sure he did.
13 Q No one tells me to do anything, I run things my way.
14 Is that a fair characterization of Mr. Gordon's statements
15 to Mr. Reffsin?
16 A That's a fair statement for him to say that to a lot
17 of people, so yes.
18 Q Specifically to Mr. Reffsin?
19 A I'm sure he said it to Mr. Reffsin.
20 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Thank you. I have no further
21 questions.
22 (Continued.)
23 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3234 Springer-r
edirect/Scott
1 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
2 BY MS. SCOTT:
3 Q Good afternoon again, Ms. Springer.
4 A Good afternoon.
5 Q Now, do you remember testifying that you reviewed
6 Sterling Who's Who order forms?
7 A Yes.
8 Q What was your purpose in doing that?
9 A They were all put in the computer database and that
10 was located in Lake Success.
11 Q To your knowledge, was anybody else doing the job of
12 reviewing Sterling Who's Who forms?
13 A The group leaders were looking them over before they
14 came to Lake Success and that was because it was a new
15 company. A lot of the people that were there didn't know
16 how to write up order forms, so they were going over the
17 order forms and since they were familiar because they had
18 once worked at the Lake Success address, they knew how to
19 write orders, somewhat.
20 Q Would it be f
air to say eventually all Sterling Who's
21 Who order forms came to you before they entered the data
22 system?
23 A That's correct. 24 Q I'm showing you Government's Exhibit 1600 for 25 Identification.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3235 Springer-redirect/Scott
1 Can you tell us what those documents are in that
2 packet?
3 A Those are Sterling order forms.
4 Q How do you recognize them?
5 A They have Sterling Who's Who, they have the account
6 executives, the executives who worked there. It's the
7 format. This is the order form.
8 Q Now, do those forms commemorate sales of memberships
9 from Sterling Who's Who to customers?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And were these forms made in the regular course of
12 business of Sterling Who's Who?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And was it the regular business practice of
Sterling
15 Who's Who to make and keep these records?
16 A No, they were stored at Lake Success.
17 Q Well, was it the regular business practice of Who's
18 Who Worldwide and Sterling Who's Who to keep and make
19 these records?
20 A Yes.
21 MS. SCOTT: I offer Government's Exhibit 1600.
22 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.
23 May we approach? 24 THE COURT: All right. Come up. 25 I'll tell you what we'll do. We'll take a
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3236 Springer-redirect/Scott
1 recess. It will be at least a 15 minute recess because I
2 have to take care of something in addition, another
3 matter. It will not be too much longer than that.
4 Do not discuss the case. Keep an open mind.
5 Please recess yourselves.
6 (Jury exits.)
7 (Out of the presence of the jury.)
8 MR. TRABULUS: Your Hono
r, these documents were
9 not previously disclosed and this is an example of
10 sandbagging. These are documents in which apparently for
11 over a fairly short period of time there were notations to
12 the effect that the name "assistant" is not allowed in a
13 title. So this should have been disclosed previously.
14 I don't know to what extent this might constitute
15 3500 material, but in any event, it is improperly late.
16 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, let me respond to the
17 argument about disclosure. Every single invoice and order
18 form that's in the government's possession has been made
19 available for over a year to the defendants at the post
20 office in Brooklyn.
21 THE COURT: Including this?
22 MR. WHITE: Including this one. I personally
23 brought -- 24 THE COURT: Relax, Mr. White. 25 MR. WHITE: Well, Your Honor, I object.
HARRY RA
PAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3237 Springer-redirect/Scott
1 THE COURT: I'm only standing about 12 feet away
2 from you.
3 MR. WHITE: I object to the characterization
4 because Mr. Trabulus didn't find these in there and they
5 weren't disclosed to them. They were. They've been in
6 the post office for a year. I brought this with me with
7 the government for the use here at trial in certain
8 boxes. In light of the testimony this morning, I dug them
9 out. So they've been made available to the defendants for
10 a year.
11 MR. DUNN: With all due respect, we visited these
12 offices, at least two big rooms of boxes. To rely on the
13 fact, okay, you can go into this room with a mountain of
14 documents and say, hey, you are on notice, I disagree with
15 you, I submit.
16 THE COURT: I may agree with you but what
17 significance
does this have.
18 MR. JENKS: She got up there on direct
19 examination by Ms. Scott and asked about changing the
20 titles of these people from assistant to associate.
21 THE COURT: We are all the subject of timeliness
22 and on something else.
23 MR. TRABULUS: No, still on timeliness. 24 THE COURT: Mr. Jenks, I told you, my mind 25 doesn't function like yours.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3238 Springer-redirect/Scott
1 MR. TRABULUS: It affected it because of the time
2 of the cross-examination.
3 THE COURT: So you want additional
4 cross-examination.
5 MR. TRABULUS: The prejudice, Your Honor, the
6 cross-examination was predicated upon there not being any
7 documents indicating any instructions to change title.
8 THE COURT: So your first question on
9 cross-examination, "did you know the governme
nt just
10 produced these which they never gave me except giving me
11 entre to 40 million documents in a warehouse?"
12 MR. TRABULUS: She will say how do I know?
13 THE COURT: But that tells the jury that you
14 didn't know about this before. I don't see any prejudice
15 to you. There was general -- I agree with Mr. Dunn that
16 you couldn't fathom from all of those documents which ones
17 would be useful, but they were there. I don't see any
18 prejudice to the defendants at all except that your
19 cross-examination might have been somewhat changed, if you
20 knew about this, but you can use it to your advantage.
21 You never were told anything like this. You were shown it
22 for the first time.
23 I'm not going to preclude it because of that. 24 You made a big thing out of this, they made a big thing 25 out of the assistant associate, you made a bigger thing
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3239 Springer-redirect/Scott
1 about the assistant. You brought a machine up there, some
2 kind of infernal machine, I don't know what it is, but you
3 sure know how to use it, Mr. Trabulus. You're an expert
4 on that.
5 MR. TRABULUS: There is a federal statute to make
6 it unlawful to use infernal machines. I hope I didn't do
7 anything improper.
8 THE COURT: I don't know what that is. That is
9 the CD ROM.
10 MR. TRABULUS: A computer CD ROM.
11 THE COURT: Now I have found out.
12 MR. DUNN: Your Honor, there is probably no rule
13 on this, but I think it would have been fair for the
14 government if they contemplate using a document, it would
15 be nice if they gave it to us.
16 In addition, I would ask now if they were going
17 to contemplate using a document two weeks from
now on
18 redirect or something, I ask that we be notified of it
19 now.
20 THE COURT: I want to tell you that I think the
21 government, as I said several times, has fully and
22 faithfully, more than complied with their discovery
23 requests in a tremendously complex-laden case. I think 24 they have. Occasionally something comes up. Mr. Trabulus 25 hit gold for a while. He showed there were 460 --
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3240 Springer-voir dire/Trabulus
1 MR. TRABULUS: 461 assistant VPs and 4,000
2 owners.
3 THE COURT: That put the skid under the witness,
4 they are smarting from that beating that they took, went
5 out and said aren't there any documents that showed this
6 happened? So they found some.
7 I'm not going to preclude the use.
8 All right. We'll take a ten-minute recess.
9 (Rece
ss taken.)
10 (Jury enters.)
11 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, may I have a voir
12 dire?
13 THE COURT: Sure. If we get the witness.
14 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION.
15 BY MR. TRABULUS:
16 Q Good afternoon, Ms. Springer.
17 Do you have 1600 for Identification there?
18 A Yes, I do.
19 Q These are photos copies, not original documents; is
20 that correct?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q I'm going to direct your attention to the bottom of
23 each page. 24 This is a form, is it not? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3241 Springer-voir dire/Trabulus
1 Q And there's a place where it is preprinted the word
2 "comments"?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And some handwritten material after that.
5 A Yes, that's correct.
6 Q Looking at the first one of these pages, do you
7 recognize th
e handwriting next to "comments"?
8 A I believe that is either Rob Lamb's handwriting or
9 possibly could be -- it is Mike Powers.
10 Q Either Rob Lamb's or Mike Powers'?
11 A I believe this is Mike Powers' handwriting.
12 Q Third from the last, there appears to be a different
13 handwriting next to "comments." Whose handwriting is
14 that?
15 A It appears to be Rob Lamb's.
16 MR. TRABULUS: Very well. My objection is
17 withdrawn.
18 MR. SCHOER: Your Honor, may I have a voir dire.
19 THE COURT: Sure.
20 (Continued.)
21
22
23 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3242 Springer-voir dire/Schoer
1 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. SCHOER:
3 Q Ms. Springer, do you remember ever seeing these
4 particular documents.
5 A (Perusing.) I remember seeing this Mi
rage Resorts
6 order.
7 Q Count down from the top. Is that the third one from
8 the top?
9 A The third one.
10 Q The notation on the bottom where the comments are
11 that Mr. Trabulus was just asking you about, was that on
12 the document when you first saw it?
13 A When I first saw it?
14 Q Yes.
15 A It probably was on there.
16 Q Okay.
17 And as far as you remember with respect to any of
18 these documents, that the comment part was already written
19 on there before it was sent to Lake Success; is that fair
20 to say?
21 A That could be correct, yes.
22 Q You don't remember sending any forms back to New York
23 for people to make changes with respect to titles, do you? 24 A A lot of them went back, yes. 25 Q With respect to the person's title?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3243<
BR> Springer-voir dire/Schoer
1 A Yes.
2 Q Okay.
3 But you didn't write on the bottom of any of
4 these forms, none of them are your handwriting?
5 A (Perusing.) No, none of these are my handwriting.
6 Q And none of them are handwritings that you recognize
7 from anyone in administration?
8 A Not from anyone in our office, no.
9 Q So as far as you can tell, looking at these
10 documents, those documents were written somewhere in New
11 York before they were sent to Lake Success?
12 A That's correct.
13 MR. SCHOER: I have no objection.
14 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 1600 in
15 evidence.
16 (Government's Exhibit 1600 received in evidence.)
17 (Continued.)
18
19
20
21
22
23 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3244 Springer-redi
rect/Scott
1 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
2 BY MS. SCOTT:
3 Q Before you take a look at that exhibit in front of
4 you, do you remember testifying that you began evaluating
5 peoples' qualifications about seven months after you
6 started working at Who's Who Worldwide?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Do you remember testifying that during that time
9 Bruce Gordon would at times instruct you how to change
10 titles of particular people who wouldn't otherwise qualify
11 for membership?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q Was Mr. Gordon always consistent with the
14 instructions that he gave you?
15 A He was not consistent, no.
16 Q Could you please explain to us what you mean by
17 that.
18 A At times people would be let in and at times titles
19 would not be changed. It depended on membership, as I
20 explained before. Also a lot of times he had a CD ROM at
21 home and he would spend evenings, I can't say, I wasn't
22 there, but there were times that he would come in the next
23 morning and say he was going through my CD ROM and noticed 24 a certain industry, I'll give an example, banking, and he 25 would say I don't want the banking listed, change it to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3245 Springer-redirect/Scott
1 financial services. It wasn't always for the same
2 industry. It depended on the time if he knew a company
3 and knew what they did, he would say I want these
4 changes.
5 I don't know if I'm making myself clear or not,
6 but --
7 Q What do you mean when you say --
8 A I'll give you an example. If Merrill Lynch or Fanny
9 Mae he would look up certain companies through the CD ROM,
10 you have access to do it, you can bring it up by the
11 company name, indust
ry, major product, a lot of different
12 ways. He would come in and say I want these changed. I
13 want all of these banks or bankings changed to finance
14 services. Merrill Lynch or Fanny Mae is a financial
15 service industry, but some of these customers wanted them
16 specifically listed as banking but they were changed to
17 financial services.
18 IBM is an example as well.
19 Q Were Mr. Gordon's instructions about how to change
20 peoples' titles always consistent?
21 A Not always consistent, no.
22 Q And what kind of things -- withdrawn.
23 What do you mean by that? 24 A Sometimes owners were permitted in. It depended. If 25 the person was adamant enough and they wanted it listed
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3246 Springer-redirect/Scott
1 that way, the rule was overlooked. I would be instructed
2 to
keep it that way. It depended on the mood. Basically
3 that is what it depended on. He could come in some days
4 in good moods and some days in bad and it would depend on
5 his mood. If he wanted it, something to be changed, it
6 depended. It was not consistent.
7 Q When you say it depended on his mood, who do you
8 mean?
9 A Mr. Gordon.
10 Policies were changed at all given times. In the
11 beginning there were things that were expressed to me that
12 certain people were supposed to be included and there were
13 some people who were not supposed to be included, but then
14 they got contradictory when it seemed to me as when the
15 memberships were of the higher amount. If it was a
16 lifetime membership and the person wanted to be listed as
17 an assistant, that would be okay.
18 Q Now, just take a look at exhibits in front of you,
19 Ms. Springer.
20 I believe you testified that it is not -- your
21 handwriting doesn't appear on any of those?
22 A My handwriting doesn't appear on the bottom half, no.
23 Q Were there any other people besides yourself under 24 any circumstances who would look at that order form or 25 check them over?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3247 Springer-redirect/Scott
1 A At Sterling Who's Who they got to a certain point
2 where I was working with both companies, with Who's Who
3 out in Lake Success and I was working with Sterling. And
4 there was an overabundance of orders. It was not
5 physically possible for me to do this all in one day. I
6 brought stuff home with me and I would sit at home and get
7 annoyed, annoyed at the point I don't make this
8 commission, I don't do the job as group leaders, I do not
9 get commission, do not make the mon
ey they make. I take
10 pride in what I do, and I would send the job.
11 I would call them and tell them these things are
12 unacceptable, and this is the reason why the handwriting
13 was on them because they did start screaming at me. I
14 just could not do it. I was doing the job of quite a few
15 people and I wasn't going to do it.
16 Q Were there ever days you were absent from work?
17 A Yes, there was.
18 Q What would happen on those days?
19 A I would hand them to Tara Green.
20 Q If you take a look at the dates at a general period,
21 what were the time periods that they fall in?
22 A June of 1994, July of 1994, July of '94, June of
23 '94. The months of June and July of '94. I'm sorry, 24 also September. 25 MS. SCOTT: Your Honor, may I publish
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3248 Springer-redirect/Scott
1 Government's Exhibit 1600 to the jury?
2 MR. NELSON: Your Honor, may we have a limiting
3 instruction that it is being introduced only as to the
4 defendant Sterling Who's Who as to a corporation.
5 THE COURT: Yes. This is introduced only with
6 regard against the defendant Sterling Who's Who.
7 BY MS. SCOTT:
8 Q Now, if you take a look at the first page in that
9 exhibit, can you tell us the title of the customer, the
10 name and the title of the customer that appears there?
11 A Deputy Assistant Secretary for Equal Opportunity,
12 USHS.
13 Q Is there a word that is circled there?
14 A Assistant.
15 Q And going down to the bottom of the page, can you
16 tell us what that says next to "comments"?
17 A "Cannot use assistant in this title. Please change
18 title."
19 Q Now, turn to the next page, please. Read the title
20 of the
customer.
21 A "Executive Assistant to president. (Please use
22 another title)."
23 Q And going down to the bottom of the page, can you 24 tell us what it says next to "comments"? 25 A By the asterisk, "Plaque to read Dr. John Robert
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3249 Springer-redirect/Scott
1 Booth, Jr. (Please put another title instead of
2 assistant)."
3 Q Turn to the third page. Can you tell us the person's
4 title on that page?
5 A Senior Project Assistant.
6 Q What does it say at the bottom of that document?
7 A "Need another title. Assistant is not allowed as a
8 title."
9 Q The next page after that. Can you read the title,
10 please?
11 A "Assistant Manager."
12 Q And the comments at the bottom of the page.
13 A "Please put another title. Assistant is not
14 sufficient."
15 Q Please turn to the next page.
16 A "Assistant Director."
17 Q And the comments at the bottom of the page, please.
18 A "Please put another title. No assistants."
19 Q The next page, please. Read the title.
20 A "Assistant to the president."
21 Q And the words next to "comments" at the bottom of the
22 page.
23 A "Please put another title." 24 Q And do the same for the next document, please. 25 A "Assistant Director."
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3250 Springer-redirect/Scott
1 Q And the comments.
2 A "Not allowed to use assistant in the title."
3 Q Please turn to the next page and read the title.
4 A "Executive Assistant."
5 Q And the comments at the bottom.
6 A "Not allowed to use assistant in the title."
7 Q And the page after that, please read the title.
8 A "Assistant vice-
president."
9 Q And the comment at the bottom of the page.
10 A "Send back."
11 Q That's written next to title on the top of that page?
12 A Yes, that is my handwriting.
13 Q Could you read the comments at bottom of the page?
14 A "Assistant is not allowed in a title."
15 Q And please do the same for this next document,
16 Kathrine C. Leibknect.
17 A "Assistant vice-president."
18 Q And the comments at the bottom.
19 A "Assistant is not allowed in the title."
20 Q Now, please read the next page, the title on the next
21 page.
22 A "Executive Assistant."
23 Q And the comments at the bottom, please. 24 A "Not allowed to use assistant in the title." 25 Q And the next document, the title.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3251 Springer-redirect/Scott
1 A "Executive Assistant to president."
2 Q And the comment at the bottom.
3 A "Assistants are not allowed in the title."
4 Q Now, looking at the third to the last document in
5 this packet, can you tell us what it says next to the word
6 "title"?
7 A "Manager."
8 Q And is that word circled there?
9 A Yes, it is.
10 Q What does it say next to "comments" at the bottom of
11 the page?
12 A "Please put another title."
13 Q And turning to the next page. Can you read that
14 title?
15 A "Manager."
16 Q What does it say at the bottom next to comment?
17 A "Please put another title."
18 Q And finally the last page of this packet. Can you
19 tell us what it says next to "title"?
20 A Store manager which is crossed off.
21 Q What is written next to "store manager"?
22 A "General Manager."
23 Q What is written at that page? 24 A "Needs better title." 25
Q Just reading from the document, can you tell us what
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3252 Springer-redirect/Scott
1 happened here?
2 A What happened, the handwriting that is on this is
3 Michael Powers' handwriting. He crossed off the store
4 manager and put general manager.
5 Q Now, Ms. Springer, you testified that these documents
6 fall within approximately a few month period of 1994?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q And the last date represented there is September of
9 1994; is that correct?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q Now, to your knowledge, did a Sterling book ever come
12 out after that time period?
13 A I believe it did. I'm not sure.
14 Q Well, approximately when was --
15 A Yes, actually -- I'm sorry, yes. '94 I believe was
16 the Sterling edition.
17 Q Do you know when in 1994 that edition came out?<
BR> 18 A I don't remember.
19 Q Now, do you remember being asked to look at the
20 CD ROM and to punch in the word "assistant" using that
21 laptop computer?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And do you remember that your search of the word 24 "assistant" yielded approximately 431 people who had that 25 in that title?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3253 Springer-redirect/Scott
1 A That's correct.
2 Q And how many members, to your knowledge, --
3 withdrawn.
4 How many people, to your knowledge, were members
5 of Sterling Who's Who and Who's Who Worldwide during that
6 time period?
7 A I don't remember exactly, 60, 70, 80,000. I'm not
8 sure exactly.
9 Q So out of those 60, 70, 80,000 of those, 431 had that
10 title assistant?
11 A That's correct.
12 Q I'm going to hand you a calculator and ask you
to
13 calculate the percentage of members who had the title
14 "assistant."
15 A On 60,000 or 80,000?
16 Q Try 60,000.
17 If you press in 431 and divide it by 60,000.
18 A (Witness complies.)
19 Q What is the number you get there?
20 A 0071833.
21 Q Is that a decimal point 007?
22 A Yes.
23 Q So that is approximately .7 percent; is that correct? 24 A Math was never my subject, to be honest. 25 Q Is that about seven-tenths of a percentage?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3254 Springer-redirect/Scott
1 A Oh, yes.
2 Q So is it fair to say that seven-tenths of a percent
3 of all the members of Sterling Who's Who and Sterling
4 Who's Who, had the name "assistant" in their title?
5 A Yes.
6 Q You also mentioned upgrades in your testimony
7 earlier.
8 A That's correct.
9 Q Can you tell us how upgrades affected -- well,
10 withdrawn.
11 Can you tell us how the presence with people with
12 the name "assistant" in their title would be affected by
13 the upgrading policy and Sterling Worldwide Who's Who?
14 A When I started in '91 there were no members and as I
15 explained on several occasions since Monday, at that time
16 I was instructed to input the information no matter what.
17 That's how it went in. I didn't know the job of editing
18 them, looking them over, screening them or any of that.
19 So those were automatically put into the computer system.
20 "Assistant," I'm sure, and I'm not saying that
21 all 431 went through at that time, you know, from 1991
22 until, you know, years later.
23 There was a thing called upgrading and upgrading 24 came into effect when cards were scarce, when there was no 25 cards they were give
n a number of ADL members and that's
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3255 Springer-redirect/Scott
1 an abbreviation.
2 Q When you said there were no cards available, do you
3 mean lead cards?
4 A Yes.
5 Q So when there were no sales cards available,
6 salespeople worked on sheets?
7 A We, with American Business Leaders, that was the
8 registry information and at that time they would call the
9 customers and they would upgrade them to five years or
10 actually, I'm sorry, they would explain to them that there
11 is membership also now, then they would sell them again.
12 Or -- I'm not sure exactly how the sales part went into
13 effect.
14 Also a lot of times when they didn't have cards,
15 if the person was an associate membership, they would
16 upgrade them. They would upgrade it to a lifetime and
17
they would charge them, I don't know exactly what the
18 charge was. The information when they were an associate,
19 they were permitted to have lesser titles as I explained
20 before.
21 A lot of the information I wouldn't have seen
22 when it reprinted out of the computer if they had just
23 upgraded all of the information, business, major product 24 and all of that information wouldn't be filled out by the 25 person who was upgrading unless there was something to be
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3256 Springer-redirect/Scott
1 changed.
2 If the person's book changed they would put in
3 put in this, or add in university degree. But the other
4 information would have the name, the last name and that
5 would be it.
6 Q So if a person who had the title "assistant," the
7 name "assistant" in their title wanted an upgra
de in their
8 membership, was it necessary to make a change in the
9 information presented in the registry?
10 A I wouldn't have seen that. It would have been
11 printed out on one of the invoices and there was a
12 possibility that at times I explained --
13 MR. LEE: I object at this point, Your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Yes, sustained as to "possibility."
15 BY MS. SCOTT:
16 Q Now, just to clarify one thing you said,
17 Ms. Springer. Earlier when you said there were no
18 memberships at the outset, what did you mean by that?
19 A There wasn't a lifetime three-year, five-year
20 associate. They were just listed in the registry, they
21 received a wall plaque and they received the registry.
22 Q Did you mean by that they didn't receive any other
23 benefits in connection with it? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q Now, do you remember being asked questions about
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3257 Springer-redirect/Scott
1 Colin Powell's membership?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And do you remember testifying that Colin Powell was
4 included in the registry without paying for it or agreeing
5 to be included?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q How is it that you know that?
8 A There was no card, there was no order form written
9 up.
10 Q So how did his name get into the registry?
11 A As I explained before, Mr. Gordon explained to me
12 what information to input into the database, so I did it.
13 Q Was that information, Mr. Powell's personal
14 information?
15 A It wasn't personal information, it was
16 business-related. It was the type of industry I was in,
17 which everyone knows.
18 Q But the data commonly was included in the registry?
19 A That's correct.
2
0 Q Now, do you remember testifying about the use of
21 nomination ballots?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And can you tell us when nomination ballots first 24 began to be used at the company? 25 A I believe it was '94. It could be earlier than
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3258 Springer-redirect/Scott
1 that. I'm not sure. I believe '94.
2 Q And do you remember Mr. Jenks asking you a question
3 about whether you followed written guidelines in
4 evaluating peoples' qualifications?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And do you remember that you were asked about
7 deposition testimony where you said that you did use
8 written guidelines?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q Can you explain to the jury what you meant when you
11 were testifying at the deposition?
12 A On the back of the cards, the lead cards have
13 information. It will tell
you industry, it will say
14 government, it will say consumer products, it will have
15 food industry, they will have suggestions of it. Those
16 are the guidelines. If it was an unfamiliar industry I
17 would go to Bruce Gordon and I would ask him.
18 At one time I wasn't familiar with what field the
19 entertainment -- I'm sorry, the gaming would be
20 classified. Would it be classified under entertainment or
21 would it have its own category. I didn't make gaming an
22 industry because if it was me it would be entertainment,
23 basically what it is, or gambling, but gambling obviously 24 wouldn't look correct in a registry. So that's why when 25 they asked me about Mirage I remembered Mirage, because it
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3259 Springer-redirect/Scott
1 was gaming. That's how the industry was put.
2 Q I've placed
in front of you Government's Exhibit 9-D,
3 for Daniel, in evidence.
4 A Yes.
5 Q Looking at that document, could you tell us what you
6 would be referring to when you said that you used written
16 Q So are you reading off choices that were given to
17 customers when they were filling out that card as to how
18 to explain what they did for a living?
19 A That is correct.
20 MS. SCOTT: Your Honor, may I pass around
21 Government's Exhibit 9-D?
22 THE COURT: Yes.
23 BY MS. SCOTT: 24 Q Now, do you remember Mr. Schoer asking you questions 25 about whether the salespeople knew about the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3260 Springer-redirect/Scott
1 administration and in particular about your
2 responsibility?
3 A That is true.
4 Q Do you remember testifying that, to your knowledge,
5 the salespeople were aware that you were responsible for
6 evaluating member qualifications?
7 A They all knew it.
8 Q Do you remember specifically Mr. Schoer asking you
9 whether the salespeople knew you were the next level of
10 review?
11 A They knew that.
12 Q Now, do you remember testifying though that you -- do
13 you remember saying that you would not go that far?
14 A I would never take anything upon myself to
do it.
15 Like I explained, with the gaming industry, I'd never come
16 across anything like that. With the casino, I don't know
17 what field to classify it as. A lot of times certain
18 companies would list things in a different way.
19 You know, you can have fifteen IBMs listed as
20 computer hardware and ten of them listed as computer
21 software. I was instructed by him change all of IBM to
22 read computer hardware-software, things like that.
23 I don't know if I answered your question or not. 24 Q That's all right. 25 Now, do you remember Mr. Schoer asking you about
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3261 Springer-redirect/Scott
1 your feelings about working at Who's Who Worldwide?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And do you remember testifying that you cared a great
4 deal about your job there?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Do you
remember also testifying that you had some
7 doubts about the company while you were there?
8 A That is correct.
9 Q Can you explain what those doubts were?
10 A There was quite --
11 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, Your Honor.
12 THE COURT: Yes, sustained.
13 MS. SCOTT: Is that form or substance, Your
14 Honor?
15 THE COURT: Substance.
16 BY MS. SCOTT:
17 Q Now, do you remember being asked by several of the
18 defense attorneys about a number of the defendants sitting
19 in this room, namely Tara Green, Frank Martin and Laura
20 Weitz, Annette Haley and Scott Michaelson?
21 A Yes.
22 Q With respect to Tara Green, can you tell us when she
23 began working at Who's Who Worldwide? 24 A I was not there when she first started. 25 Q So she was working at company when you got there; is
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTE
R 3262 Springer-redirect/Scott
1 that correct?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q Now, with respect to Mr. Frank Martin, also known as
4 Oral Frank Osman, can you tell us when he began working at
5 the company?
6 A They told me the dates. I don't remember. Like I
7 explained before, I don't remember the exact dates.
8 Q Do you remember him being at the company when you
9 arrived there?
10 A No, he was not.
11 Q But he arrived sometime later?
12 A Yes, he did.
13 Q What about Laura Weitz, do you remember when she
14 arrived at company?
15 A She was there before I started working there.
16 Q And what about Steve Rubin, can you tell us when he
17 started working there?
18 MR. DUNN: Your Honor, objection. That wasn't
19 asked on cross.
20 THE COURT: Overruled.
21 A I don't remember when he started working there.
22 Probably a year before the company was shut down.
23 Q Do you remember him arriving at the company while you 24 were working there? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3263 Springer-redirect/Scott
1 Q What about Scott Michaelson, can you tell me when he
2 started working there?
3 A I don't remember when he started working there, but
4 it was after I started.
5 Q Finally, Annette Haley, can you tell us when she
6 began working at the company?
7 A After I started.
8 Q Do you remember Mr. Nelson asking you about -- well,
9 withdrawn.
10 Do you remember Mr. Nelson asking you about your
11 practice at giving back cards, your process of giving back
12 order forms when they contained inadequate information?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Do you recall who you gave the cards to in that
15 situation?
16 A I did not give the cards, I gave the order forms to
17 the group leaders.
18 Q And in particular, did you give them to any group
19 leaders, former group leaders who were sitting in this
20 room?
21 A I gave them to Tara.
22 Q And did you testify that the purpose of this was to
23 permit calls to be made to customers to clarify 24 information on the forms? 25 A I gave them back to her before that, yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3264 Springer-redirect/Scott
1 Q And typically how quickly would you get the order
2 forms back with corrections or with the requested
3 information?
4 A I would get them back pretty quick.
5 Q Can you tell us what you mean by "pretty quick"?
6 A Quick. Very quick. I can't tell you in minutes or
7 seconds. A lot of them I would get back very, very
8 quick. It co
uld be two, three minutes later.
9 Q And when these order forms came back to you, did they
10 contain the information that you needed to put through the
11 order forms?
12 A Yes, they did.
13 Q Now, to your knowledge, what would happen during
14 those minutes after you had given the order forms to the
15 group leader, among them Tara Garboski?
16 A I'm not sure. I wasn't around. She would change
17 them, though. They would be changed. Or the salesperson
18 would change them with their handwriting.
19 Q And what sort of changes would you see on these
20 forms?
21 A A lot of times information was left off. So if
22 information was put on I couldn't tell you specifics.
23 Q Did you ever see they changed the title of the people 24 applying for membership? 25 A That's correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3265
Springer-redirect/Scott
1 Q When you got back these changed order forms, did they
2 ever have Tara Garboski's handwriting on them indicating
3 changes?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Now, do you remember Mr. Lee asking you about Barbara
6 Walter's membership?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And do you remember him asking you about whether
9 Barbara Walters declined membership?
10 A Yes, I do remember.
11 Q I ask you to take a look at Government's Exhibit
12 3500-15-F, as in Frank.
13 Do you remember that Mr. Lee asked you to look at
14 that same document?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Does that document refresh your recollection about
17 anything that you were told that Barbara Walters said
18 regarding membership?
19 A She declined the membership.
20 Q And does it help you recall whether Barbara Walters
21 wanted to be a member of Who's Who Worldwide?
22 A
She did not want to be included.
23 Q Now, you were asked about your title at Who's Who 24 Worldwide. Do you remember that? 25 A Sure.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3266 Springer-redirect/Scott
1 Q And do you remember it being suggested that you were
2 nothing more than a glorified clerical worker?
3 A Those words will remain in my mind for the rest of my
4 life.
5 Q I ask you to take a look at Gordon D and Gordon F, as
6 in Frank, both of which are in evidence.
7 Could you turn to the masthead pages in those
8 magazines.
9 A Yes.
10 Q And do you see your name listed on those mastheads in
11 Gordon D and Gordon F?
12 A Yes.
13 Q What does it say next to your name for title?
14 A Doesn't say "glorified." It says "editorial
15 assistant."
16 Q Does it say that in both exhibits? <
BR> 17 A Sure does.
18 Q And when Mr. Jenks was suggesting to you that you
19 were nothing more than a glorified clerical worker, he
20 didn't show you those magazines, did he?
21 A No, he did not.
22 Q Now, do you remember Mr. Geduldig asking you about
23 swapping at the company, swapping among salespeople? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And do you remember being asked about whether
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3267 Springer-redirect/Scott
1 salespeople would help each other out by providing sales
2 to each other if somebody was running short of a quota
3 that week?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Now, were you ever told by anybody that they had
6 actually swapped sales?
7 A They would never tell me.
8 Q Are you aware of any specific instances when it
9 happened?
10 A I am not aware of specific ones, no.
11 Q And
so the information that you have about this
12 swapping, the swapping is rumor; is that correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q For instance, when you testified earlier you
15 mentioned that you didn't know how these swaps would be
16 arranged and you said "if it even happened," correct?
17 A That is correct.
18 Q So are you sure whether in fact it even happened?
19 A You want me to answer with just a yes or no?
20 Q No.
21 A Elaborate?
22 I know that the salespeople had to get a quota
23 and I would not put anything passed them to get the quota 24 because if they did not they would be fired. They were 25 humiliated, they were yelled at, they were screamed at at
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3268 Springer-redirect/Scott
1 the top of his lungs, they were made example. This is
2 very common.
3 People within the first
two days of working at
4 that company would leave in tears because of the way they
5 were treated and it is not to say it was from the group
6 leaders. The group leaders had their position. They were
7 told by Mr. Gordon, I don't care what it takes for them to
8 get sales, to get them.
9 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, Your Honor. Move to
10 strike.
11 THE COURT: Yes, motion granted. Strike out the
12 answer as not being responsive. The jury is instructed to
13 disregard it.
14 BY MS. SCOTT:
15 Q Well, Ms. Springer, now are you sure whether the
16 swapping in fact happened? This time just answer yes or
17 no.
18 A No.
19 MS. SCOTT: Thank you. I have no further
20 questions.
21 THE COURT: Anything else?
22 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.
23 (Continued.) 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3269 Springer-recross/Trabulus
1 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. TRABULUS:
3 Q Ms. Springer, you heard Mr. Gordon tell the
4 salespeople "stick to the pitch;" is that correct?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q And you heard him tell them "don't lie;" is that
7 correct?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q And you told Mr. Dunn before that there were certain
10 things that you had a conversation with Liz Sautter about
11 after you had left the company; is that correct?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q Now, while you were at the company you were familiar
14 at least once with the contents of the pitch; is that
15 correct?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q You had typed one up; is that correct?
18 A I had finished one, yes.
19 Q And you were aware that it said that you had been
20 nominated for inclusion or something to that effect?
21 A That's correct
.
22 Q You had seen solicitation letters, had you not?
23 A Yes, I did. 24 Q And it said you had been nominated for inclusion; is 25 that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3270 Springer-recross/Trabulus
1 A Yes.
2 Q They didn't say you had been nominated for inclusion
3 by another member, the solicitation letter, just said that
4 you had been nominated by another member?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q You were aware, are you not, that the company had
7 used mailing lists as a source of people to contact; is
8 that correct?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q So these weren't anything that had been kept in the
11 dark from you while you were working there; is that
12 correct?
13 A No.
14 Q You testified you used a calculator and you computed
15 about .7 of the persons who had been listed had a t
itle
16 with assistant in there?
17 A Yes.
18 Q When mailing lists were purchased, are you aware
19 whether or not entire lists were purchased, segments were
20 purchased or what type of lists were purchased? Were you
21 particularly involved in that?
22 A No, I was not.
23 Q So if a list was purchased by title and the titles on 24 the list might be presidents, you would not expect people 25 to come out of that with the name "assistant;" is that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3271 Springer-recross/Trabulus
1 correct?
2 A I'm sorry, repeat that question.
3 Q Yes, sure.
4 If a mailing list was purchased for presidents of
5 the company, you would not expect people whose names were
6 on that list to have titles such as assistants, would you?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q You have no idea whether among
all the mailings sent
9 out, only .7 percent of the recipients had "assistant" in
10 their title; is that correct?
11 A I'm not sure of the statistics, no.
12 Q So you would have no way of knowing that?
13 A I would have no way of knowing that.
14 Q You testified that the word "gaming" was used instead
15 of gambling; is that correct?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q And when you had a company or a person that was in
18 the business that related to gambling, it would
19 consistently be called gaming; is that correct?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q You also testified there were reasons for having a
22 consistent usage for a particular category; is that
23 correct? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q So that if somebody wanted to input something into
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3272 Springer-recross/Trabulus
1
the CD ROM, which is after all just something that doesn't
2 really think, it just looks for a particular word, it
3 would be one word that would get everything in that
4 category; is that correct?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q And if indeed you had some listed as gaming, and some
7 listed as gambling, and you wanted to find everybody who
8 was in one or the another, and you had two different
9 words, you would only get half; is that right?
10 Shall I restate that, I went too fast?
11 A Yeah.
12 Q If you had two different categories, gaming and
13 gambling, with two different names, gaming and gambling
14 for two different things and you wanted to input into the
15 CD ROM gambling so as to find all the people involved in
16 the gambling business, you would just find those listed as
17 gambling and not those listed as gaming; is that correct?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q So that's why you would want to have consistency in
20 the names, in the terminology; is that correct?
21 A In that aspect, yes.
22 Q Would you consider it to be misleading or deceitful
23 to use the term "gambling" instead of "gaming"? 24 A Yes. 25 Q It would be no different using the word luncheon
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3273 Springer-recross/Trabulus
1 rather than lunch, a little fancier term?
2 A Yes.
3 Q You testified in the terms of banks. At one point
4 the term "financial institution," was to be used instead
5 of "banking;" is that correct?
6 A Financial services.
7 Q There is nothing about the term bank or banking in
8 any way that is disreputable; is that correct?
9 A That's true.
10 Q There is nothing more prestigious about financial
11 services than banking, is there?
12 A No.
13 Q So again it was a matter of consistency; is that
14 correct?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q And there would be several different entries in the
17 CD ROM, several different parameters by which you could
18 search and one might be industry; is that correct?
19 A That's correct.
20 Q And that's where financial services might appear as
21 an industry; is that correct?
22 A That's correct.
23 Q There would be another one "type of organization." 24 A Yes. 25 Q And in that you might find commercial bank?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3274 Springer-recross/Trabulus
1 A That's correct.
2 Q So you could find both financial services and bank in
3 the sense that the bank would be like a sub-part of the
4 financial services, right?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q It wasn't done to mis
lead people, was it?
7 A No, it was not.
8 Q That was done to help people in using the CD ROM; is
9 that correct?
10 A That I will agree with, yes.
11 Q And when Mr. Gordon spent late hours at night going
12 through the CD ROM and checking things out, he was working
13 on trying to make the CD ROM more usable for the people
14 who would be using it?
15 A I wasn't there or in his mind, so I don't know.
16 Q But based upon what you had just told us about, the
17 change in the terminology from gambling to gaming or the
18 consistent usage, the type of thing with financial
19 services, that would be, that consistency was to make the
20 CD ROM more usable and more valuable to the members; is
21 that correct?
22 A It would appear to be.
23 Q Now, you mentioned that the group leaders made more 24 than you did; is that correct? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3275 Springer-recross/Trabulus
1 Q A higher salary.
2 When you left what was your salary?
3 A $605.
4 Q A week?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q Gross?
7 A No.
8 Q That was your net?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And when you started, was it about 350 a week?
11 A I thought it was 425.
12 Q Now, you also were shown (handing.)
13 You were listed as an executive assistant in --
14 sorry, editorial assistant in volumes three and volume
15 four and volume five; is that correct?
16 A Whichever ones I looked at.
17 Q In volume two of Tribute, the one dated spring of
18 1994, were you listed as an editorial assistant?
19 A No, I was not.
20 Q So did you achieve some further responsibilities only
21 in September of 1994?
22 A That is not true.
23 Q So it was j
ust a question of the way it was listed in 24 the Tribute? 25 A That's correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3276 Springer-recross/Trabulus
1 Q Of course there was no shyness in using the word
2 assistant in describing people's work?
3 A That's correct, yes.
4 Q You indicated that these documents that have been
5 marked as Exhibit 1600 were all from Sterling; is that
6 correct?
7 A That is correct.
8 Q And these were all the ones that have handwriting
9 indicating that a change should be made either in the term
10 assistant or manager; is that correct?
11 A That's correct.
12 Q And it is your testimony that the term "assistant"
13 was sometimes -- was changed to manager -- excuse me,
14 changed to associate; is that correct?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q And change from assistant to associate
would still
17 signify that the person was still not the top position, in
18 other words, an assistant vice-president or associate
19 vice-president would not be quite as high up as a
20 vice-president?
21 A That is correct.
22 Q And an assistant professor or associate professor
23 would not be the same title as a full professor? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And an attorney in the law firm described as an
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3277 Springer-recross/Trabulus
1 associate would not be at the same level as one of the
2 partners in the firm; is that correct?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q And these documents we have here, all of these came
5 from Sterling; is that correct?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q And it all came during a period, I think the earliest
8 one was June of 1994, and there is one in September of
9
1994 and the others I think are in July of 1994; is that
10 correct?
11 A You are saying the last one?
12 Q I think the last one says September.
13 A That it does.
14 Q And Mr. Gordon's handwriting doesn't appear on any of
15 these; is that correct?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q And I think you indicated your handwriting appears on
18 only one where it says "send back;" is that correct?
19 A That's correct.
20 Q This handwriting at bottom which indicates that a
21 change should be made, that was put in either by Mr.
22 Lambart or Lamb-Lombart, that is one person, right?
23 A That's correct. 24 Q Or else Mr. Powers Esposito, Powers-Esposito? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3278 Springer-recross/Trabulus
1 Q And those were people who worked at that period of
2 time at Sterling; is that co
rrect?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q That is where they spent their time; is that correct?
5 A That is correct.
6 Q And that was during the summer of 1994; is that
7 correct?
8 A That is correct.
9 Q And during that period of time Mr. Gordon was present
10 at the Lake Success premises almost all the time; is that
11 correct?
12 A When Sterling opened up you are asking?
13 Q During the summer of 1994.
14 A I don't remember.
15 Q If I were to tell you that there was somebody here
16 yesterday who testified that he worked at Sterling during
17 the summer of 1994, Mr. Gordon was there only there once a
18 week sometimes and sometimes once every two weeks, would
19 that surprise you?
20 A It wouldn't.
21 Q You testified that Sterling was a looser operation
22 than Who's Who World Wide; is that correct?
23 A I don't understand what you
mean by looser. 24 Q It certainly wasn't run as tight of a ship from what 25 you recall?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3279 Springer-recross/Trabulus
1 A That's correct.
2 Q Apparently things came out of Sterling that never had
3 been tolerated at Who's Who Worldwide, it came across your
4 desk?
5 A It did come across my desk.
6 Q It wouldn't surprise you what Mr. Lamb-Lombart or
7 Powers-Esposito would allow; is that correct?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q That was put to you in connection with a question as
10 to whether or not they might even allow a card to go
11 through that had a crayon on it; is that correct?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q And certainly you would not have tolerated that?
14 A I would not.
15 Q And Mr. Gordon would not have tolerated that, would
16 he?
17 A He would not
have.
18 Q Now, you testified concerning Barbara Walters, both
19 in questions that were put to you by Mr. Lee and also in
20 questions put to you by Ms. Scott; is that correct?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q And you told Mr. Lee, did you not, that she declined
23 to pay for a membership; is that correct? 24 A That is correct. 25 Q And you didn't tell him that she declined to be a
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3280 Springer-recross/Trabulus
1 member, in fact, you told him that she was given a
2 complimentary membership; is that correct?
3 A That's how it was explained, yes.
4 Q Would it not be surprising that some people who were
5 of a well-known status in the world who in fact might not
6 need to network would not be willing to pay for a
7 membership in Who's Who Worldwide?
8 A Sounds good.
9 Q Indeed
it might occur to them they were probably more
10 of a value to Who's Who Worldwide than Who's Who Worldwide
11 was of value to them; is that correct?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q But some people for that very reason might be offered
14 a complimentary membership?
15 A Possible.
16 Q And they may indeed accept it?
17 A That is true.
18 Q Now, let me ask you, when it came time for a member
19 -- withdrawn.
20 During the course of your work doing editorial
21 assisting, members would frequently contact you requesting
22 a charge in their listing; is that correct?
23 A That's correct. 24 Q They would move, they would change positions, change 25 affiliations; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3281 Springer-recross/Trabulus
1 A That's true.
2 Q And you would make the changes; is that
correct?
3 A Sometimes, yes.
4 Q And the changes -- withdrawn.
5 I think you indicated that the membership was on
6 a computer database; is that correct?
7 A That's true.
8 Q So when you made the change you could do that by
9 typing an entry into the computer; is that correct?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q That would accomplish the change; is that correct?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q Now, sometimes would you make what are called
14 "global" changes in the computer?
15 Do you know what I'm talking about?
16 A Yes, I understand what you're talking about.
17 Q Was there ever a situation, for example, in which all
18 the inferences to International Business Machines were
19 made into IBM in one fell swoop?
20 A Yes.
21 Q How long did that take to do? You didn't have to go
22 through each one one by one did you?
23 A I don't believe I
did it. I believe the computer 24 programmer did it, but it wouldn't have taken long. 25 Q It wouldn't take long to do it in one fell swoop?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3282 Springer-recross/Jenks
1 A That's correct.
2 Q It wouldn't take long in one fell swoop to change
3 assistant from associate if you wanted to do all the ones
4 in there?
5 A You would have to do a search but I don't believe it
6 would take long, no.
7 Q So it could be done easily if one wanted to change
8 assistants to associates; is that correct?
9 A It could be, yes.
10 MR. TRABULUS: I have no further questions.
11 MR. JENKS: I have one or two. I'll ask it from
12 here.
13 THE COURT: Yes.
14 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
15 BY MR. JENKS:
16 Q You didn't work at Sterling Who's Who in Manhattan,
17 did you?
18
A No.
19 Q So it would be fair to say what happened at Sterling
20 Who's Who and what happened at that corporation was your
21 interpretation of the order forms; is that correct?
22 A I spoke with them.
23 Q On the telephone? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q But you weren't physically there to observe what was
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3283 Springer-recross/Schoer
1 going on at Sterling Who's Who?
2 A No, I was not.
3 Q You couldn't hear them or see them on a given day,
4 could you?
5 A No.
6 Q In other words, your primary function dealing with
7 Sterling Who's Who was getting these order forms and
8 essentially doing the same job with the order forms with
9 Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?
10 A That's correct.
11 MR. JENKS: All right. Thank you.
12 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
13 BY MR. SCHOER:
14 Q Just a couple things.
15 You indicated that when you were out, when you
16 were ill, you would hand things to Tara. I didn't quite
17 understand that.
18 A All of the orders were put in a bin, in a file
19 cabinet in the administrative office where I sat. If I
20 was out ill, there were a couple of occasions Liz would be
21 contacted, Liz would give out of the orders to Tara for
22 her to do them.
23 Q Do you know that Liz gave them to Tara? You weren't 24 there; is that right? 25 A No, I wasn't there.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3284 Springer-recross/Schoer
1 Q And you don't know what review Liz did before she
2 might have handed them to Tara, if she did hand them to
3 Tara, right?
4 A I don't know that, right.
5 Q Primarily when you handed things back to Tara, that
6 was because there was missing information, right?
7 A That as well as other things, yes.
8 Q There was either missing information or there was a
9 question of this classification that we talked about
10 before, right?
11 A In reference to the title, yes.
12 Q Well, let me show you what I showed you before,
13 Exhibit 41-C. That's in evidence and that is the order
14 form where there was a person who was the assistant
15 vice-president, risk manager.
16 Do you remember we talked about that?
17 A That's true.
18 Q And that title wasn't changed, was it?
19 A That was not changed.
20 Q But there is information that was changed concerning
21 the business?
22 A That is true.
23 Q And the major products-service? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And I believe the type of organization. It's hard to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPO
RTER 3285 Springer-recross/Schoer
1 tell (indicating.)
2 A Yes.
3 Q And some of the information that is written, some of
4 the information that was changed in those three categories
5 I just talked to you about is in your handwriting, right?
6 A One is, yes.
7 Q And some of it is in Tara's handwriting; is that
8 correct?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q So when you sent this form back to Tara she didn't
11 change the title, right?
12 A That is correct.
13 Q She took care of the classification that we were
14 talking about before because you had a question about the
15 classification?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q And even after she changed the classification, you
18 changed it again yourself, isn't that so?
19 A Yes, I did.
20 Q As far as you knew, the group leaders didn't make a
21 commission, did they?
22
A No.
23 Q So they had no financial interest in the number of 24 sales that were going to be made? 25 A That is true.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3286 Springer-recross/Schoer
1 Q Okay.
2 You had indicated I think on one of the
3 cross-examinations by one of my colleagues that it
4 wouldn't surprise you the things that the group leaders at
5 Sterling did, Mr. Lamb and Mr. Powers; is that correct?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q And it wouldn't even surprise you if they accepted a
8 card for membership that was in crayon, right?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q Is it fair to say that if that happened at Who's Who
11 Worldwide and Tara found out about it, the person who
12 accepted that, the person from membership would have been
13 fired on the spot?
14 A I don't know if the person would have been fired, but <
BR> 15 they would have been reprimanded to the fullest.
16 Q And Tara would have been extremely upset?
17 A Right.
18 Q Because that person accepted someone who wasn't
19 supposed to be in the book?
20 A That's true.
21 Q And because that person was lying, right?
22 A If they talked to a person who was obviously a minor
23 or wrote in crayon and was not of legal age to sign up for 24 membership, I would say she would be very upset, yes. 25 Q She would be ballistic, that's how she would put it,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3287 Springer-recross/Schoer
1 right?
2 A She was known as -- can't say the word -- she was
3 known as a bitch.
4 Q A bitch with respect to people doing what they were
5 supposed to have been doing, right?
6 A Yes. I didn't mean it in a defensive way or
7 offensive way, I'm sorry.
I meant it -- actually to me it
8 would not be a compliment, but they were scared of her.
9 They knew not to mess around with her.
10 Q They knew to follow the pitch because that was the
11 policy of the company, right?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And they knew they weren't supposed to lie to
14 anybody; is that correct?
15 A That's true.
16 Q And they knew they weren't supposed to make any
17 misrepresentations, right?
18 A That is true.
19 MR. SCHOER: Thank you.
20 THE WITNESS: You're welcome.
21 (Continued.)
22
23 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3288 Springer-recross/Nelson
1 RECROSS EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. NELSON:
3 Q Frank worked with Tara, right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And Frank likewise would not permit somebody with a
6 crayon or somebody who wasn't
qualified to be in the book;
7 is that right?
8 A He would not accept it.
9 Q I would like you to look at Exhibit 1600 for a
10 moment.
11 The dates on that are June of '94 through
12 September of '94; is that right?
13 A That is correct.
14 Q So would that refresh your recollection that
15 Lamb-Lombart and Mr. Esposito worked as group leaders at
16 Who's Who Worldwide at sometime before June of 1994?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And they then went to work in Manhattan; is that
19 correct?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q Am I correct that Mr. Martin first came to work at
22 Who's Who Worldwide in November of 1994 after both of
23 those gentlemen were already working in Manhattan? 24 A I can't comment on the month. I don't know. But it 25 was probably afterwards, yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3289 Spri
nger-recross/Geduldig
1 MR. NELSON: Thank you.
2 THE COURT: Anybody else?
3 MR. GEDULDIG: I have just one or two questions.
4 RECROSS EXAMINATION
5 BY MR. GEDULDIG:
6 Q Mrs. Scott had just asked you a couple of questions
7 about the sales swapping, swapping going on between
8 salesman at Who's Who Worldwide at Lake Success, right?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And you've testified about this yesterday, rather,
11 you testified to this on February 3rd, which is Monday?
12 A Okay.
13 Q I'll ask you if you recall being asked these
14 questions and giving these answers on page 2610?
15 "The Court: The question is, would some people
16 transfer sales? That's all. That was the question.
17 "The Witness: I would say yes, there was. I
18 can't tell you names of people but what I was trying to
19 get at or explain was that the people who had worked with
20 each other for a long period of time were close.
21 "The Court: And they would be more likely --
22 "The Witness: They would be more apt to
23 transfer. 24 "The Court: To transfer sales. 25 "The Witness: Exactly.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3290 Springer-recross/Geduldig
1 "The Court: Do you know of any actual transfer
2 of sales?
3 "The Witness: I couldn't say. I wouldn't know.
4 I wouldn't remember.
5 "The Court: Would there be any indication on the
6 papers where there was a transfer of sale?
7 "The Witness: I wouldn't recognize it. It could
8 be a code that the two salespeople had between each
9 other. I wouldn't know. I wouldn't know."
10 Do you recall that testimony?
11 A I recall it.
12 Q It's truthful?
13 A It's very truthful.
14 Q As you sit here now, do you have an
y doubt that sales
15 swapping went on between the salespeople?
16 A I don't know for sure, but I would say yes. I don't
17 know for sure. I wasn't there. I don't know what they
18 did. I didn't hear conversations and if I did I would
19 report it to Tara or to Bruce or to Liz.
20 Q One of the reasons why it would be kept quiet?
21 A Absolutely. They knew with me, especially.
22 Q That you would report it?
23 A Absolutely. 24 Q But you had no doubts that it went on as you sit here 25 now?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3291 Weller-direct/White
1 A There was a lot of stuff that went on that is
2 unbelievable so I wouldn't put it passed anyone about what
3 went on.
4 MR. GEDULDIG: Thank you. I have nothing
5 further.
6 THE COURT: Anything else?
7 MS. SCOTT: Nothing further.
8 THE COUR
T: All right. You may step down.
9 THE WITNESS: Thank God.
10 THE COURT: Call your next witness, please.
11 MR. WHITE: The government calls Cindy Weller,
12 W-E-L-L-E-R.
13 C I N D Y W E L L E R , having been first duly sworn by
14 the Clerk of the Court, was examined and testified as
15 follows:
16 THE WITNESS: My name is Cindy Weller,
17 W-E-L-L-E-R.
18 THE COURT: First name C-I-N-D-Y?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes.
20 DIRECT EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. WHITE:
22 MR. WHITE: May I proceed, Your Honor?
23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 Q Ms. Weller, can you tell us where you live? 25 A I live in Concord, California.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3292 Weller-direct/White
1 Q How long have you lived there?
2 A 40 years.
3 Q Are you married?
4 A Yes, I am.
5 Q Do you have a family?
6 A Yes, I do.
7 Q Do you have children?
8 A Yes.
9 Q How many?
10 A Two girls.
11 Q Can you tell us what you do for a living?
12 A I'm a law librarian.
13 Q And where do you work?
14 A I work at Cooper, White, Cooper in San Francisco.
15 Q Can you tell us in general terms what a law librarian
16 does?
17 A I do research for the attorneys who are working on
18 cases and matters. I do book purchasing, research as to
19 what books we should buy. Maintenance of the collection,
20 moving books around, shelving them.
21 Q Did you previously work for another law firm?
22 A I did. I worked for Pilsbury, Madison & Sutro.
23 Q Let me refer to that firm as Pilsbury from here on 24 out. 25 Tell us when did you work for Pilsbury?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3293 Weller-direct/White
1 A From September of 1986 to January 16th of 1998.
2 Q Did Pilsbury the law firm maintain a law library?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Now, did Pilsbury's library subscribe to various
5 periodicals?
6 A Yes, we did over 2,000.
7 Q Can you tell us how those periodicals were typically
8 addressed to Pilsbury?
9 A Usually to the library or generally to Madison,
10 Sutro.
11 Q Have you ever heard of a company called Sterling
12 Who's Who?
13 A Yes, I have.
14 Q Can you tell us how you heard of Sterling Who's Who?
15 A In March of '94 I received a letter addressed to
16 Mr. Library.
17 Q Let me show you Government's Exhibit 66-A, B and C.
18 If you could first take a look at 66.
19 THE COURT: Is that in evidence?
20 MR. WHITE: No, it's for Identification, Your
21 Honor.
22 BY MR. WHITE:
23 Q I'm sorry. If you could first take a l
ook at 66-B 24 and C, and tell us what those are? 25 A 66-B is the letter from Sterling to Mr. Library,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3294 Weller-direct/White
1 regarding their Sterling Who's Who. 66-C -- 66-C is a
2 card which was enclosed with the letter for a check off
3 box saying yes, I would like to be included in that
4 directory.
5 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, the Government offers
6 66-B and C.
7 THE COURT: Any objection?
8 MR. TRABULUS: No.
9 THE COURT: Government's Exhibits 66-B and C in
10 evidence.
11 MR. SCHOER: Yes, against Sterling Who's Who.
12 THE COURT: Against Sterling Who's Who.
13 (Government's Exhibits 66-B and 66-C received in
14 evidence.)
15 BY MR. WHITE:
16 Q Ms. Weller, could you read who the address is?
17 A Mr. Library, Pilsbury, Madison & Sutro.
18
Q The first line of the letter says "Dear Mr. Library;"
19 is that correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Could you read the first two perhaps of this letter
22 to Mr. Library.
23 A "On March 11 --" 24 THE COURT: You have to read slowly. Make 25 believe you are in the middle of the law library and
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3295 Weller-direct/White
1 everything is nice and quiet.
2 THE WITNESS: Not where I work.
3 "On March 11th you were selected by us for
4 possible inclusion in the 1994-1995 executive edition of
5 Sterling Who's Who.
6 Based on your career and positions with your
7 company, we are confident that you qualify for inclusion
8 in the executive edition."
9 Q Now, if you could look at the last paragraph before
10 the "sincerely." What does that say?
11 A "We look forward to your inclusion
in the executive
12 edition and best wishes for your continued success."
13 Q For the continued success of Mr. Library?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Now, after you received this letter, what did you do?
16 A Initially I laughed. It was pretty funny. I get a
17 lot of junk mail and this one kind of hit me and then I
18 wrote a letter back to Sterling Who's Who.
19 Q If you look at Exhibit Government's Exhibit 66-A, do
20 you recognize that?
21 A Yes, this is my letter.
22 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, the Government offers
23 66-A. 24 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, Your Honor. 25 MR. SCHOER: Objection.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3296 Weller-direct/White
1 THE COURT: What is the ground you are offering
2 this document? It's hearsay, is it not?
3 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, it is providing notice
4 to --
5 THE C
OURT: May I see it? It's in my book,
6 right?
7 MR. WHITE: Yes.
8 MR. TRABULUS: May we approach, Your Honor?
9 THE COURT: Just one minute.
10 All right. Come up.
11 (Side bar.)
12 THE COURT: Do you intend to get through with
13 this witness this afternoon, Mr. White, putting somebody
14 on from California at a quarter after four. You will get
15 through with this witness this afternoon.
16 MR. WHITE: I was going to have her read this
17 letter and then I would be finish with her, Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: Of course I have to leave even
19 earlier than usual.
20 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I have another witness
21 from California that will take about ten minutes too.
22 THE COURT: You didn't advise me of that and if
23 you did I would not have done that. I would have put the 24 witness on out of turn. You should have put this witness 25
on earlier this afternoon and the next one. From now on
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3297 Weller-direct/White
1 that's what you do. Don't put a witness on from
2 California on the last day of the week at 4:15 in the
3 afternoon.
4 Now I have a doctor's appointment this afternoon
5 and I will keep it.
6 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, are we going to five p.m.
7 today or are we not?
8 THE COURT: We might go or I might go five
9 minutes to five but certainly not beyond five o'clock.
10 I don't know how you could figure you could put
11 two witnesses on, but don't do that. Interrupt the
12 witness and put him on earlier.
13 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I would have done that.
14 This is the substance of her testimony, five minutes.
15 THE COURT: Mr. White, a word to the wise is
16 sufficient. Don't do it, put them on a quart
er to four in
17 the future.
18 MR. WHITE: I'll take your advice.
19 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, this is hearsay and it
20 contains her thoughts.
21 THE COURT: I know it is hearsay.
22 MR. TRABULUS: He claims it is on for notice,
23 notice for what? That they use mailing lists. 24 THE COURT: No, it's not notice of anything. If 25 it's not for the truth, it's not for anything.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3298 Weller-direct/White
1 Sustained.
2 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, this letter might be
3 hearsay but she can testify as to what she wrote to
4 Sterling, is that what you are saying or are you saying
5 she can't even read what she wrote to Sterling? If she
6 testifies and say here's what I told them, they can
7 cross-examine her.
8 MR. TRABULUS: If she testifies as to that, she
9 is restating.
10 MR. JENKS: Your Honor, I would object to it. I
11 would object to the letter and as to this also.
12 THE COURT: What she said then is hearsay also,
13 therefore she can't testify to this.
14 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, she said it, it's not
15 hearsay.
16 THE COURT: She said it to who?
17 MR. WHITE: To Sterling Who's Who in the
18 formality of a letter.
19 THE COURT: It's an out-of-court declaration
20 being offered for the truth; is that correct?
21 MR. WHITE: No, it's not, Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: It's being offered for the truth.
23 What exception to the hearsay rule? It's her statement. 24 MR. WHITE: Well, my position was, which Your 25 Honor disagreed with yesterday, it was not offered for the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3299 Weller-direct/White
1 truth so I will not waste any more time.
2 THE COURT: Do you want her to come back Monday
3 morning?
4 MR. WHITE: Okay.
5 THE COURT: You had my ruling.
6 MR. WHITE: That's what I mean. I'll just drop
7 it.
8 (End side bar.)
9 BY MR. WHITE:
10 Q Ms. Weller, do you know if Mr. Library was ever
11 offered a membership?
12 A A member being where?
13 Q Sterling Who's Who?
14 A Yes, he was.
15 MR. WHITE: No further questions.
16 THE COURT: Cross-examination.
17 (Continued.)
18
19
20
21
22
23 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3300 Weller-cross/Trabulus
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. TRABULUS:
3 Q When you say Mr. Library was offered a membership,
4 you mean received a card?
5 A Correct.
6 Q All right.
7 You mentioned that Pilsbu
ry, Madison & Sutro
8 subscribed to 2,000 or more publications?
9 A Yes.
10 Q That's quite a bit. Quite a big law firm.
11 A Yes.
12 Q How many lawyers were at Pilsbury, Madison & Sutro
13 then, 1994?
14 A Nationwide or in San Francisco?
15 Q Let's start in San Francisco.
16 A 300.
17 Q Nationwide?
18 A About 600.
19 Q Offices in Washington, D.C.?
20 A Yes.
21 Q One of the oldest and most prestigious law firms in
22 California?
23 A Yes. 24 Q And the premiere law firm in San Francisco, that's 25 how it is regarded?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3301 Weller-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes.
2 Q Lawyers throughout the country know of it?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And it has clients among the very top corporations
5 among the country; is that correct?
6 A Correct
.
7 Q Now, do you know whether there are any members --
8 withdrawn.
9 It's a partnership, is it not?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Do you know if there are any partners in the firm who
12 are listed in Who's Who?
13 A There are some listed in Marquis' products.
14 Q Some of the people who have been affiliated with that
15 law firm have gone on in positions in government, have
16 they not?
17 A Yes, they have.
18 Q And in general it's a very good place to be from; is
19 that correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And do you know if the people are partners in that
22 law firm who were in Marquis Who's Who, if they got
23 correspondence addressed to them at the law firm? 24 A I do not. 25 Q Do you know whether or not Marquis Who's Who got
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3302 Weller-cross/Schoer
1 their nam
es from a mailing list?
2 A I don't know.
3 Q You realize whenever you utilize a mailing list it is
4 possible that sometimes a name can get screwed up; is that
5 correct?
6 A Yes.
7 MR. TRABULUS: No further questions.
8 THE COURT: Anything else?
9 MR. SCHOER: One, Your Honor.
10 CROSS-EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. SCHOER:
12 Q You wouldn't know whether Sterling Who's Who mailed
13 out 1,000,000 piece a year or 10,000,000 pieces a year,
14 would you know that?
15 A I wouldn't know that.
16 MR. SCHOER: No further questions, Your Honor.
17 THE COURT: You may step down.
18 MS. SCOTT: The government calls Chastity Carvel,
19 C-A-R-V-E-L.
20 (Continued.)
21
22
23 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3303 Carvel-direct/Scott
1 C H A S T I T Y
C A R V E L , having been first duly
2 sworn by the Clerk of the Court, was examined and
3 testified as follows:
4 THE WITNESS: May name is Chastity Carvel.
5 C-H-A-S-T-I-T-Y, C-A-R-V-E-L.
6 THE COURT: You may proceed.
7 DIRECT EXAMINATION
8 BY MS. SCOTT:
9 Q Good afternoon, Ms. Carvel.
10 A Good afternoon.
11 Q Can you tell us where you live?
12 A Lakewood, California.
13 THE COURT: Where is this, Lakewood?
14 THE WITNESS: Lakewood, California.
15 Q Do you have family in Lakewood, California?
16 A Yes, I do.
17 Q Do you have any children?
18 A Yes, I have four sons.
19 Q And how are you currently employed?
20 MR. SCHOER: Objection.
21 THE COURT: Overruled.
22 BY MS. SCOTT:
23 Q How are you currently employed? 24 A As the administrative assistant to the president of a 25 mining firm.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3304 Carvel-direct/Scott
1 Q How long have you held that position?
2 A Five years.
3 Q What does your job involve?
4 A Correspondence, scheduling, greeting visitors, making
5 phone calls.
6 Q Have you ever heard of a company called Sterling
7 Who's Who?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And how have you heard of that company?
10 A I received a letter from them a few years ago.
11 Q Do you remember approximately when that was?
12 A I'm not really sure. I think it was about three
13 years ago.
14 Q And do you remember what that letter says?
15 A Something to the effect of "due to the position I had
16 achieved in life" or something, I was recommended for a
17 directory of Who's Who or -- I don't remember exactly what
18 the wording was, but it was something about being listed
19 in the d
irectory.
20 Q Who was the letter addressed to?
21 A I think it was addressed to "Chastity Carvel,
22 Administrative Ass."
23 Q Showing you Government's Exhibit 71. 24 THE COURT: For Identification. 25 A My memory fails me. It was worse than I remembered.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3305 Carvel-direct/Scott
1 Q Does that letter refresh your recollection as to what
2 was said to you?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Is that the letter that you received from Sterling
5 Who's Who?
6 A Yes, it is.
7 MS. SCOTT: I offer Government's Exhibit 71.
8 THE COURT: Any objection?
9 MR. GEDULDIG: I object, Judge, as being
10 irrelevant.
11 THE COURT: May I see it?
12 I can't hear you.
13 MR. JENKS: I object only to the right-hand
14 portion of the document.
15 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, we'll offer t
he exhibit
16 in the redacted form so only the left-hand portion of the
17 document appears.
18 THE COURT: I'm sorry, you will redact what?
19 MS. SCOTT: The right-hand portion on that page.
20 THE COURT: Just one minute now.
21 Is this 71?
22 MS. SCOTT: Yes.
23 THE COURT: It's this little bitty thing on the 24 corner here? 25 MS. SCOTT: Yes, it is.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3306 Carvel-direct/Scott
1 THE COURT: In the right-hand portion is what you
2 are redacting?
3 MS. SCOTT: Yes.
4 THE COURT: Starts with the word "blue"?
5 MS. SCOTT: Yes:
6 THE COURT: Who was objecting to it?
7 MR. JENKS: I object to the right-hand side
8 portion of it.
9 THE COURT: Anyone else objecting?
10 MR. TRABULUS: Not to the rest of it.
11 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 71 in evid
ence.
12 (Government's Exhibit 71 received in evidence.)
13 BY MS. SCOTT:
14 Q Ms. Carvel, can you read to the jury the address
15 portion of the letter?
16 A Yes. Addressed to "Ms. Chastity Carvel.
17 Livingston."
18 THE COURT: You have to go much slower. This
19 isn't California, this is New York. We talk much slower
20 here.
21 THE WITNESS: I'll try to comply.
22 BY MS. SCOTT:
23 Q Ms. Carvel, just state the name portion of the 24 address. 25 A "Ms. Chastity C. Ass."
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3307 Carvel-direct/Scott
1 Q Going down to I believe it is also called the address
2 where it begins with "dear." Can you read to the jury the
3 first three paragraphs of the letter.
4 A "Dear Ms. Ass, you were nominated on October 13th for
5 inclusion in the Sterling Who's Who director
y. Your
6 listing with permanent information about you and your
7 company is a tribute to yourself in your career and
8 position. As the majority of new candidates are not
9 accepted for inclusion. As inclusion in the Sterling
10 Who's Who directory is confirmation and recognition of
11 accomplished individuals, each candidate is evaluated in
12 accordance with high standards of achievement."
13 Q Now, going down to the bottom of the page, can you
14 just read the last line before "sincerely"?
15 A "Best wishes for your continued success."
16 Q That would be for the continued success of Ms. Ass;
17 is that correct?
18 A That's how the letter reads.
19 Q What was your recollection to that letter,
20 Ms. Carvel?
21 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.
22 THE COURT: Sustained.
23 BY MS. SCOTT: 24 Q What did you do after reading this letter? 25 A I
wrote them a letter.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3308 Carvel-cross/Trabulus
1 MS. SCOTT: No further questions. Thank you.
2 THE COURT: Good thinking.
3 CROSS-EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. TRABULUS:
5 Q Hello, Ms. Carvel.
6 A Hello.
7 THE COURT: That's what you call adaptability,
8 Ms. Scott.
9 MS. SCOTT: Thank you.
10 BY MR. TRABULUS:
11 Q Hello, Ms. Carvel.
12 I'm a lawyer for the gentleman over there. I
13 hope you weren't too upset when you received this letter.
14 You took it as a typographical error, I assume, when you
15 got it.
16 A Not exactly.
17 Q The Livingston Graham Blue, is that your business or
18 what is that? Is that a business address or a home
19 address?
20 A It's a portion of the name of the company.
21 Q When this letter came, how many people were
at the
22 company? Is it a big company?
23 A It's a large company. 24 Q When this letter came to the company, they knew to 25 send it to you?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3309 Carvel-cross/Trabulus
1 A I'm the only person there named Chastity.
2 Q And obviously it was a little upsetting to get this
3 and a little irritating?
4 A I found it a little offensive, yes.
5 Q And the government has brought you here from
6 California to tell us about this mistake that happened; is
7 that correct?
8 A They brought me to testify about receiving the
9 letter.
10 Q Sure.
11 Did they lead you to believe that they thought it
12 was deliberately addressed that way? Did anyone from the
13 government tell you that, that they believed it was
14 deliberately addressed that way?
15 A The government di
dn't tell me anything.
16 Q They didn't tell you that this was a prosecution for
17 sending pornography or something suggestive or rude in the
18 mail, did they?
19 A No, they did not.
20 Q Did they explain to you that this was a criminal
21 trial?
22 A A little bit.
23 Q Did they tell that you people were charged with mail 24 fraud? 25 A I don't remember exactly what she said the charges
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3310 Carvel-cross/Neville
1 were, if they even did. They asked me if I received a
2 letter, if I remembered receiving a letter and if I had
3 written a response. I don't remember exactly.
4 Q They didn't tell you that anybody was charged with
5 fraudulently misrepresenting your name or anything like
6 that, did they?
7 A No.
8 MR. TRABULUS: No further questions.
9 THE
COURT: Anything else?
10 MR. NEVILLE: Yes, Your Honor.
11 CROSS-EXAMINATION
12 BY MR. NEVILLE:
13 Q When did you come in to New York to testify today,
14 ma'am?
15 A I came in yesterday.
16 Q You flew in?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Stayed at a hotel?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Government is paying for that?
21 A Yes, they are.
22 Q Any estimation, any idea how much the government has
23 to pay you back for this trip? 24 MS. SCOTT: Objection. 25 THE COURT: Overruled.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3311 Carvel-cross/Neville
1 I've already instructed the jury that the
2 government must pay for her transportation and her hotel
3 if they decide to use her as a witness.
4 A Well, I will tell you they are not reimbursing me
5 what it has cost me. They are not reimbursing me my
6 wages,
they are not reimbursing anything I've spent over a
7 set per diem. They set limits what they will pay for taxi
8 fair which do not pay what it costs to get around in a
9 taxi in New York.
10 Q So they are paying for your expenses and they are
11 also costing you more money for you being absent from your
12 job?
13 A It's costing me all of that.
14 Q All about testifying about a mistake on a letter and
15 these people are on trial for their liberty?
16 A I'm not sure what they are on trial for.
17 Q Would it surprise you --
18 A But this mistake was very offensive to me.
19 Q Do you know who sent you that?
20 A It is signed.
21 Q Do you know if Scott Michaelson sent you that in the
22 mail?
23 A It is signed by Stacey Wagner. 24 Q Do you know if Scott Michaelson sent you that in the 25 mail?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OF
FICIAL COURT REPORTER 3312 Carvel-cross/Neville
1 A I do not.
2 Q Do you care whether Scott Michael will go to jail
3 because you got that mistake in the mail?
4 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
5 THE COURT: Sustained.
6 BY MR. NEVILLE:
7 Q Did you ever speak to Scott Michaelson?
8 A No.
9 Q Did you ever receive anything in the mail from Scott
10 Michaelson?
11 A I don't believe so.
12 Q Did you ever receive anything in the mail from
13 anybody in this room?
14 Do you know who is on trial here? Do you know
15 the people who are on trial even?
16 A No, I do not.
17 Q Do you have any idea what the effect might be of your
18 testimony here today with these people on trial?
19 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
20 THE COURT: Sustained.
21 MR. NEVILLE: I have no further questions.
22 THE COURT: Anything else?
23 MS
. SCOTT: Nothing further. 24 THE COURT: All right. You are excused. 25 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3313
1 THE COURT: Have a nice trip back.
2 All right. I think that I myself will conclude
3 today's session, if that is all right with counsel. I
4 don't know if it is all right with the jury, but -- I'm
5 doing this because I have checkup myself, nothing serious,
6 regular checkup which I better get started in going
7 because of the weather, it may still be raining and so
8 forth.
9 In any event, we are going to recess until
10 Monday, February 9th at 10 a.m. I have two other matters
11 which may take a while, so I don't want to keep you
12 waiting. 10 a.m.
13 Also I want to tell you that next Friday the 13th
14 we will be working, next Friday the 13th we will work from
15 1
:30 to 5:30, so please make your arrangements.
16 You've had a solid week of testimony here, even
17 though it has only been four days, it has been crammed
18 full of testimony and it is not easy kind of going. You
19 have been very attentive, I've watched you carefully.
20 You've listened with interest to all of the witnesses
21 which is your main job and it is difficult to sit for long
22 periods of time without talking back in any way and that's
23 what your role is as a juror. So, I compliment you for 24 this. 25 I'm sure everybody in the case joins me in that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3314
1 regard.
2 Please don't discuss this case either among
3 yourselves or with anyone else. You have a day off
4 tomorrow.
5 My vote is to go to work, those of you who are
6 gainfully employed, catch up a little bi
t. And others, do
7 what you want to do. But what you will not do is discuss
8 the case. You will not look up any terms. You are not
9 going to -- rather you are going to keep an open mind.
10 Come to no conclusions until this case is over, until the
11 lawyers have summed up and until I've instructed you on
12 the law which you don't know about which you must obey and
13 follow in the jury room discussing this case among
14 yourselves, that's when you start making decisions, not
15 until them.
16 So we'll recess until 10 a.m. on Monday,
17 February 9th.
18 Have a very nice three days.
19 (Jury exits.)
20 THE COURT: My goodness, Mr. White, you're right,
21 you got these two witnesses in, with of course some
22 curtailing of the proof.
23 MR. WHITE: Even without the curtailing they 24 would just be reading their one paragraph letters. 25 THE
COURT: That's okay.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3315
1 MR. GEDULDIG: Judge, especially this last
2 witness. This case will be a long trial and to bring in a
3 witness just so she could get up there and say she got a
4 letter addressed to her as Ms. Ass. She doesn't testify
5 against a single living defendant in this case. The
6 letter came from Sterling. Sterling was brought in this
7 case by the government for their convenience so they can
8 get in certain documents. It was almost as if they wanted
9 to tell an off-colored joke. It extended the length of
10 the trial, it served no real purpose. I believe it was
11 demeaning to the proceeding and I took offense to it. I
12 don't think it was a legitimate effort by the government
13 to prove any aspect of their case. I think it was more in
14 the line of a blue joke they wa
nted to tell to the jury.
15 We've been here for three or four weeks and we'll
16 probably be here for another three or four weeks, and if
17 these are the kinds of witnesses they will bring in, we'll
18 be here until Tishah b'Av.
19 THE COURT: Is that a holiday?
20 MR. GEDULDIG: It's a holiday. Generally not
21 until August.
22 THE COURT: Everybody might not know what that
23 holiday is, Mr. Geduldig. 24 If you want to respond to that, you can, 25 Mr. White.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3316
1 MR. WHITE: Apparently Mr. Geduldig would like my
2 chair at government's table because he would like to try
3 the case.
4 THE COURT: I agree it is appropriate to bring
5 the witness in. There is relevant, probative evidence
6 brought in by both of these witnesses so I do not agree
7 with Mr. Geduld
ig, and even if I did I wouldn't preclude
8 the government which has a great burden of proof for
9 bringing in whatever witnesses they want, as long as it is
10 not repetitive, cumulative or absolutely outrageous which
11 this witness was not.
12 So what are we doing on Monday, Mr. White?
13 MR. SCHOER: Judge, can I just be heard with
14 respect to that?
15 You know they've been offering these exhibits,
16 these business records, there is no reason why in the
17 world they couldn't offer that exhibit as a business
18 record or ask me as an attorney of the corporation to
19 stipulate to that document. I'm offended. I think it is
20 an outrageous expense of the taxpayers' money to fly
21 people for five minutes from San Francisco when there are
22 600 members from New York in those books.
23 THE COURT: So you join with Mr. Geduldig. 24 MR. JENKS: Unfortunately
I don't. I don't want 25 to tell Mr. White how to try their case, but as a person
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3317
1 who pays taxes and tries cases every day, I will precisely
2 compute the hours, did not do any kind of outrageous
3 contact -- sometimes I even cheat myself. I work more
4 hours without even putting them down on the form.
5 THE COURT: I'll remember that before I reduce
6 your next bill.
7 MR. JENKS: Judge, I don't do this just for the
8 money alone, I do this because I want to do this.
9 THE COURT: You have a right to be heard. I
10 don't agree with you that this witness was inappropriate.
11 The witness -- and it certainly was more dramatic for the
12 jury to have the live person rather than the document.
13 This jury has hundreds of documents. This would be just
14 another one. This is trial techn
ique tactics. I do not
15 interfere with the government's tactics, nor could I
16 interfere with yours.
17 MR. WHITE: Of course, because I wanted to
18 address Mr. Jenks' concern about the government's money.
19 MR. JENKS: He and I are the best of friends.
20 MR. WHITE: He should know me and Ms. Scott and
21 the agent who didn't put in for overtime more than makes
22 up for the cost of any witness that has flown in here.
23 THE COURT: Mr. Jenks has a remedy like every 24 other citizen who doesn't like the spending of money. You 25 write to your congressman, to your senators, I understand
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3318
1 one is up for reelection, he'll be willing to listen to
2 everything about government extravagance and you tell your
3 congressman and tell them you want them to get on the
4 floor of the Congres
s and tell them about the U.S.
5 Attorney's Office and they probably would do it. But
6 right now I don't think anything was inappropriate.
7 MR. JENKS: I didn't seem to imply
8 inappropriateness to the testimony, Judge, but what I'm
9 suggesting there could have been alternate ways to do that
10 which would have had the same impact.
11 THE COURT: Okay. Do you now feel better now
12 that you said that?
13 MR. JENKS: All right.
14 THE COURT: I'm glad. I mean, there is a certain
15 relief. Mr. Neville does it all the time. He feels much
16 better when he says this and Mr. Geduldig also feels
17 better.
18 What's happening on Monday?
19 MR. WHITE: In addition to the people I've
20 mentioned in the last couple days we haven't gotten to, on
21 Monday we could have Mr. Ray, R-A-Y.
22 MR. GEDULDIG: The first name.
23 MR. WHITE: David Ray and Donald
Berman, and 24 Mr. Wheeler who I think were supposed to be up today and 25 the others that we didn't reach during the week.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3319
1 THE COURT: We'll see you on Monday.
2 (Proceedings adjourned.)
3
4
5 INDEX
6 W E N D I S P R I N G E R....................... 3061 7 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Cont'd).......................... 3062 CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 3090 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 3121 CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 3147 9 CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 3176 CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 3199 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 3207 CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 3217 11 CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 3224 CROSS-EXAM
INATION.................................... 3232 12 REDIRECT EXAMINATION................................. 3234 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION................................ 3240 13 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION................................ 3242 REDIRECT EXAMINATION................................. 3244 14 RECROSS-EXAMINATION.................................. 3269 RECROSS-EXAMINATION.................................. 3282 15 RECROSS-EXAMINATION.................................. 3283 RECROSS EXAMINATION.................................. 3288 16 RECROSS EXAMINATION.................................. 3289
17 C I N D Y W E L L E R............................. 3291 DIRECT EXAMINATION................................... 3291 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 3300 CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 3302 19 C H A S T I T Y C A R V E L....................... 3303 20 DIRECT EXAMINATION................................... 3303<
BR> CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 3308 21 CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 3310
22 EXHIBITS 23 Government's Exhibit 1600 received in evidence....... 3243 24 Government's Exhibits 66-B and 66-C received in evidence............................................. 3294 25 Government's Exhibit 71 received in evidence......... 3306
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
