3913 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X 3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, : CR 96 1016(S-1) 4 v. : U.S. Courthouse 5 Uniondale, New York BRUCE W. GORDON, WHO'S WHO 6 WORLD WIDE REGISTRY, INC., : STERLING WHO'S WHO, INC., 7 TARA GARBOSKI, ORAL FRANK : OSMAN, LAURA WEITZ, ANNETTE 8 HALEY, SCOTT MICHAELSON, : STEVE RUBIN, and MARTIN 9 REFFSIN, : TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL 10 Defendants. : February 12, 1998 11 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X 9:22 o'clock a.m.
12 BEFORE:
13 HONORABLE ARTHUR D. SPATT, U.S.D.J and a jury 14 APPEARANCES: 15 For the Government: ZACHARY W. CARTER 16 United States Attorney One Pierrepont Plaza 17 Brooklyn, New York 11201 By: RONALD G. WHITE, ESQ. 18 CECIL SCOTT, ESQ. Assistant U.S. Attorneys 19 For the Defendants: NORMAN TRABULUS, ESQ. 20 For Bruce W. Gordon 170 Old Country Road, Suite 600 21 Mineola, New York 11501
22 EDWARD P. JENKS, ESQ. For Who's Who Worldwide 23 Registry, Inc. and Sterling Who's, Who, Inc. 24 332 Willis Avenue Mineola, New York 11501 25 (cont'd)
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3914
1 APPEARANCES (cont'd):
2 GARY SCHOER, ESQ. For Tara Garboski 3 6800 Jericho Turnpike Syosset, New York 11791 4 ALAN M. NELSON, ESQ. 5 For Oral Frank Osman 3000 Marcus Avenue 6 Lake Success, New York 11042
7 WINSTON LEE, ESQ. For Laura Weitz 8 319 Broadway New York, New York 10007 9 MARTIN GEDULDIG, ESQ. 10 For Annette Haley 400 South Oyster Bay Road 11 Hicksville, New York 11801
12 JAMES C. NEVILLE, ESQ. For Scott Michaelson 13 225 Broadway New York, New York 10007 14 THOMAS F.X. DUNN, ESQ. 15 For Steve Rubin 150 Nassau Street 16 New York, New York 10038
17 JOHN S. WALLENSTEIN, ESQ. For Martin Reffsin 18 215 Hilton Avenue Hempstead, New York 11551 19
20 Court Reporter: HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR United States District Court 21 Two Uniondale Avenue Uniondale, New York 11553 22 (516) 485-6558
23 Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript 24 produced by Computer-Assisted Transcription 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3915
1 M O R N I N G S E S S I O N
2
3 (Whereupon, the following takes place in the
4 absence of the jury.
5 THE COURT: The issue is, attack as a recent
6 fabrication. A very interesting evidentiary rule, which I
7 had an opportunity as a lawyer to test in the Appellate
8 Division, so I remember a little bit about it.
9 You were supposed to show me that there was an
10 attack as a recent fabrication, were you not?
11 MR. WHITE: I do, and I have the transcript
12 citations, your Honor.
13 THE COURT: What are the citations?
14 MR. WHITE: First of all, your Honor, in
15 Mr. Trabulus' opening at page 92 of the transcript, he
16 indicates that -- he tells the jury they will hear
17 Ms. Gaspar testify. And he says to listen carefully to
18 what she is asked, and some of the reasons she has to say
19 something different now than what she said before.
20 THE COURT: He said that in his opening
21 statement?
22 MR. WHITE: Yes, on page 92 of the transcript.
23 THE COURT: All right. 24 MR. WHITE: Then, on the cross-examination by 25 Mr. Trabulus of Ms. Gaspar, he made -- he asked a series
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3916
1 of questions suggesting that at the time t
hat the agents
2 came to speak to Ms. Gaspar, that they had indicated to
3 her, or that she had thought that her participation was
4 already known to them, in other words, that the agents
5 already found out about her phony logs and, therefore, had
6 the reason to fabricate.
7 Page 1732 he asked her when she first talked to
8 the government.
9 Page 1736, he says, and didn't they tell you that
10 they had spoken to other people, and that the people whose
11 names are on the logs, that told them that they didn't
12 attend those meetings, in other words, that the agents
13 confronted Ms. Gaspar at that point.
14 Page 1739 he says, you knew when they spoke to
15 you that there was a criminal investigation under way.
16 Then on page 1741 he says, they indicated that
17 they knew about the logs. And he said, and then you tell
18 them, yeah, I did it, but they told
me -- they told me to
19 do it, right?
20 In other words, he is implying that when they
21 made up the story.
22 THE COURT: Who is "they"?
23 MR. WHITE: In Mr. Trabulus' question the "they" 24 is Mr. Gordon and Mr. Reffsin. On those pages 25 Mr. Trabulus is confronting Ms. Gaspar saying you realized
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3917
1 when the agents confronted you about the evidence, they
2 knew about your participation you felt. And the response
3 was yes, I did it, but they, Gordon and Reffsin, told me
4 to do it.
5 Mr. Trabulus immediately followed it up on page
6 1742, and said that the agents -- he asked Ms. Gaspar, did
7 the agents tell you that they weren't interested in you
8 but your bosses? Again implying at that point she had
9 that motive.
10 On his recross, pages 1874 through 1877 he
goes
11 through all of the same themes again that the agents
12 confronted her with her participation, and wasn't it true
13 that the agents knew of the falsification of the logs;
14 didn't it occur to you that the agents might have found
15 out about your logs through talking to other people?
16 So, the clear implication of the questions was
17 that it was only when she was confronted, and it appeared
18 to her that the agents knew about it, that she raised this
19 story.
20 THE COURT: Another problem I am having with
21 this, Mr. White, is whether it is a prior consistent
22 statement in the first place.
23 We know that the law abhors prior consistent 24 statements, and this is probably the only evidentiary rule 25 that permits the use of a prior consistent statement.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3918
1
Now, even assuming you have an attack as a recent
2 fabrication, you must have an unequivocal prior consistent
3 statement.
4 Now, what is the prior consistent statement?
5 MR. WHITE: The statement as recounted by
6 Ms. Benjamin is that several weeks before Ms. Gaspar left
7 the company, Ms. Gaspar comes to her extremely upset and
8 says that Mr. Gordon and Mr. Reffsin have asked her to do
9 certain things that she didn't like to do. When you
10 overlay that with Ms. Gaspar's testimony it is
11 consistent. Ms. Gaspar said she left the company in late
12 1994. She created the logs in late September '94, thus a
13 few weeks, about four weeks before she left.
14 She said Mr. Gordon and Mr. Reffsin told her to
15 do things that she didn't like. That's what she tells
16 Ms. Benjamin.
17 Ms. Gaspar's testimony is that Mr. Gordon and
18 Mr. Reffsin around that time
instructed her to do these
19 logs, which were phony, which were a crime.
20 THE COURT: Except she didn't tell Ms. Benjamin,
21 apparently, if I recall her testimony, and I probably have
22 it by now, that Mr. Gordon and Mr. Reffsin told her to lie
23 in the logs. 24 MR. WHITE: Correct. She is not that specific. 25 But I don't think the rule requires that it be that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3919
1 specific.
2 THE COURT: I think it does. I think that you
3 have to be very careful with this rule.
4 As a matter of fact, the texts on the subject
5 say -- well, they say in effect, be careful about it. I
6 am going to be careful and exclude it.
7 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, the jury has already
8 heard it.
9 THE COURT: I know.
10 MR. WHITE: And it --
11 THE COURT: You can keep it in if it was a
n
12 admission by the corporation. However, the corporation --
13 is that admissible as to any of the counts in the
14 indictment independent of the recent -- the attack as a
15 recent fabrication?
16 MR. WHITE: No, the corporation is not named in
17 the obstruction county or tax count.
18 May I request this, your Honor? I believe the
19 case law would support it. And over last night and during
20 the lunch break I didn't have the time to do it more
21 exhaustively. Will your Honor give me the opportunity to
22 review it tonight and tomorrow either give you something
23 in written or cite the cases to your Honor before you tell 24 them to not consider it and consider it again if I were to 25 be persuasive?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3920
1 THE COURT: Yes, I will do that.
2 Ready to go?
3 MR. TRA
BULUS: Judge, may I go to the wash room?
4 THE COURT: Quickly.
5 MR. WALLENSTEIN: I need to talk to Mr. Trabulus
6 about the opportunity to do this, so I will take that up
7 with him at this time.
8 THE COURT: Good thinking.
9
10 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.)
11
12 THE COURT: Some day I will have to tell you
13 about the attack on the recent fabrication case that I
14 had, which is really very interesting, when we have some
15 time.
16 MR. WHITE: If I find it, shall I put it in my
17 paper to you?
18 THE COURT: Yes. It is called Licht, L I C H T,
19 Rule against the City Savings Bank. The same rule
20 applies.
21 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Did the Appellate Division
22 agree with you?
23 THE COURT: Yes, they did. Would I tell you 24 otherwise? 25 MR. WHITE: Did the statement come in or not?
HARRY RAPAPOR
T, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3921
1 THE COURT: It didn't come in, but it caused a
2 reversal because it should have come in.
3 MR. WHITE: Then I like the case.
4
5 D E B R A B E N J A M I N ,
6 called as a witness, having been previously
7 duly sworn, was examined and testified as
8 follows:
9
10 THE CLERK: Jury entering.
11 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the
12 courtroom.)
13 THE COURT: Good morning, members of the jury.
14 Please be seated. I want to thank you for being
15 so punctual and prompt and proper. I am thinking of
16 another P, but I can't -- perfect. All of you this time.
17 I am sorry to have kept you waiting. I had
18 another matter -- several other matters. In fact, I have
19 not been able to conclude one matter that we had to put
20 over. These are the matters that caused th
e delay.
21 Sorry about that.
22 You may proceed.
23 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I have no further 24 questions for Ms. Benjamin. 25 THE COURT: All right. Cross-examination.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3922
1 MR. TRABULUS: Mr. Wallenstein will go first,
2 your Honor.
3
4 CROSS-EXAMINATION
5 BY MR. WALLENSTEIN:
6 Q Good morning, Ms. Benjamin.
7 A Good morning.
8 Q My name is John Wallenstein, and I represent Martin
9 Reffsin.
10 Ms. Benjamin, you worked at Who's Who during what
11 period of time?
12 A From the fall of 1992 until March of '95.
13 Q Do you know Mr. Reffsin?
14 A Yes.
15 Q On how many occasions have you seen Mr. Reffsin at
16 the Who's Who offices in Lake Success?
17 A About once a month, just to the say hello in passing.
18 Q Okay.
19 Would it be fair to say that the extent of your
20 contact with him was you knew who he was, he knew who you
21 were, and you would just have a greeting in the hallway?
22 A Yes.
23 Q All right. 24 In your section of the operation, you had nothing 25 to do with Mr. Reffsin directly; is that right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3923 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 A That is correct.
2 Q And you knew Mr. Reffsin to be an outside accountant;
3 is that correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q You were aware that he had his own accounting firm
6 and he came in to do the books once a month or so?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And when he came in, he had some interaction with
9 Mr. Gordon; is that correct?
10 A Well, he was in Mr. Gordon's office usually.
11 Q Also with Ms. Gaspar?
12 A Yes.
13 Q How about Liz Sautte
r?
14 A On occasion.
15 Q And none with you in your section?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Ms. Konopka and Colletti worked for you?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Is it fair to say neither of them would have a reason
20 to have an interaction with Mr. Reffsin?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q I will have you look in evidence at what is
23 Government's Exhibit 643. 24 You were asked to look at those yesterday. 25 (Handed to the witness.)
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3924 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 A Yes.
2 Q Would you take that out of the plastic, please.
3 What you have there are the usage logs for the
4 Hummingbird condo and the penthouse on East 54th Street,
5 correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And you indicated yesterday.
8 That you were not present at any of the meetings
9 where your name appears on the log
s; is that right?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q Would it be fair to say that to the best of your
12 knowledge, none of the people who worked for you were
13 there either?
14 A Yes, also.
15 Q And that would be Suzanne and Tracey; is that
16 correct?
17 A Uh-huh.
18 THE COURT: Yes?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, I am sorry.
20 Q Anyone else who appeared in this log who worked for
21 you?
22 A Maggie Swendseid.
23 Q Do you know whether she was present at any of the 24 meetings where she is alleged to have been? 25 A No. We worked very closely together. She was based
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3925 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 in the Manhattan office, maybe there was an occasion that
2 that you there that I was not aware of, but in general, I
3 would say no.
4 Q Is it a fair statement t
hat Mr. Reffsin had no
5 interaction with Ms. Swendseid either?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Do you in fact know whether he even knew who she was
8 or her name?
9 A I wouldn't know that.
10 Q There are some other names appearing in this log,
11 Mr. Gordon's name and Ms. Sautter's name, do you know if
12 Mr. Reffsin new Robert Lamb?
13 A I don't know, possibly from sight, passing him in the
14 company.
15 Q Do you know Mr. Lamb's position in the company?
16 A He was a group leader.
17 Q He was involved in the sales?
18 A Uh-huh.
19 Q Something outside of Mr. Reffsin's area?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And Tara Green was also a group leader?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Do you know who Harold Sims is? 24 A I think Harold was also a group leader at one time. 25 I am not 100 percent sure on that.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3926 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 Q Okay.
2 Would it be fair to say whoever Harold Sims is or
3 was, he would have had no reason to have any interaction
4 with Mr. Reffsin either?
5 MR. WHITE: Objection to the form of the
6 question, what Mr. Reffsin would know.
7 THE COURT: Can I hear the question,
8 Mr. Reporter?
9 (Whereupon, the court reporter reads the
10 requested material.)
11 THE COURT: Overruled.
12 A I am not 100 percent sure who Harold Sims is, so I
13 wouldn't know if he had reason to have interaction with
14 Mr. Reffsin.
15 Q Do you know if Mr. Sims worked in the financial area
16 or had anything to do with the company's books?
17 A Not that's I am aware of.
18 Q Okay.
19 Can you tell us who Michael Powers is?
20 A He was a group leader.
21 Q Also in the sales area?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And Tom R, do you know who that would be? 24 A Who? 25 Q Tom R.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3927 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 A No.
2 Q Last initial R.
3 A No.
4 Q Gary Kohler?
5 A The computer person, the MIS person.
6 Q You indicated that neither you nor any of the people
7 who worked for you were present at any of the meetings
8 that you are alleged to have attended?
9 A On the --
10 Q On the logs.
11 A Yes.
12 Q And would it be fair to say that Maria Gaspar was
13 present in the office on a day-to-day basis?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And would it be fair to say that she was aware of the
16 responsibility of the people named in these logs?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And would it be fair to say that she was aware of
19 working relationships, and by that I mean she would know
20 who worked together with who?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And would it also be fair to say that she would know
23 what particular areas of the company people would be 24 working together on? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3928 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 Q Would it also be fair to say that Mr. Gordon knew
2 everything that was going on in the company?
3 A Yes.
4 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.
5 THE COURT: Overruled.
6 Q He was a hands on CEO?
7 A Very much so.
8 Q A fair statement?
9 A Very much so.
10 Q Would it be fair to say that Mr. Gordon's philosophy
11 of running the company was, it is my company, and I'll do
12 whatever I want. And I don't care what anybody else has
13 to say?
14 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.
15 THE COURT: Overruled.
16 A Would you ask that qu
estion again as to philosophy?
17 Q Let me withdraw the question and rephrase it for
18 you.
19 Mr. Gordon ran the company the way Mr. Gordon
20 wanted to run the company, correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q If he asked you for your input and your advice and
23 you gave it to him, sometimes you took it and sometimes 24 you didn't; is that correct? 25 A That is correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3929 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 Q If he felt whatever you had to say what something he
2 didn't want to do or wasn't interested in or didn't agree
3 with, he wouldn't do it?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q Even if you were right?
6 A I guess that's correct.
7 Q He in fact had attorneys working for him for the
8 company, correct, from time to time?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Phil Pierce was one of them?
11 A Y
es.
12 Q And Mr. Pierce was involved in representing the
13 company for a trademark litigation; is that correct?
14 A I believe that's the nature of the case.
15 Q And you testified yesterday that there came a time
16 when Mr. Pierce gave Mr. Gordon certain advice, correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q At the time, would it be a fair statement that
19 Mr. Pierce had been hired by Mr. Gordon in Who's Who for
20 his expertise in the area?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And would it also be a fair statement that at the
23 time Mr. Pierce gave the specific advice, and that had to 24 do with the wording in the letters -- 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3930 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor.
2 THE COURT: I didn't hear the end of the
3 question.
4 MR. TRABULUS: I thought she began answer
ing it.
5 THE COURT: Did you complete your question?
6 MR. WALLENSTEIN: It is answerable in its present
7 form.
8 THE COURT: Is that your question?
9 MR. WALLENSTEIN: There is a follow up to it, but
10 I will ask that question.
11 THE COURT: Are you objecting to that question?
12 MR. TRABULUS: I am objecting to the question I
13 heard, yes.
14 THE COURT: Let me hear what you heard.
15 MR. WALLENSTEIN: I don't remember what I asked.
16 THE COURT: Mr. Reporter, please.
17 (Whereupon, the court reporter reads the
18 requested material.)
19 THE COURT: Sustained as to form. Strike the
20 answer. The jury is instructed to disregard it.
21 Q Mr. Pierce gave Mr. Gordon certain advice with
22 respect to wording to be used in the communication; is
23 that correct? 24 MR. TRABULUS: Objection. Foundation. 25 THE COURT: I don't recall,
but I know you
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3931 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 testified something about this yesterday, but were you
2 present when that occurred?
3 A When --
4 THE COURT: How did Mr. Pierce, the attorney give
5 advice to Mr. Gordon, in what way?
6 THE WITNESS: Just to fax any outgoing letters.
7 THE COURT: You were asked to fax Mr. Pierce a
8 copy of outgoing letters?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 THE COURT: For him to review the letters?
11 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
12 THE COURT: To approve the form and the words,
13 whatever?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 THE COURT: Mr. Pierce had his office outside of
16 Who's Who's offices?
17 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
18 THE COURT: So you faxed these letters. And what
19 happened after that?
20 THE WITNESS: Then he -- I don't reme
mber if it
21 was a phone call or refax, but he said that wording had to
22 be changed.
23 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, can we establish who 24 asked that it be faxed to Mr. Pierce? 25 THE COURT: Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3932 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 THE WITNESS: Mr. Pierce. He was at a meeting in
2 the office and asked in the future any copies of letters
3 be faxed for his review.
4 THE COURT: And you did fax these letters?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 THE COURT: How did they come back to you, by
7 phone call?
8 THE WITNESS: I don't remember offhand if it was
9 by phone call or fax.
10 THE COURT: And Mr. Pierce made certain
11 statements?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 THE COURT: All right.
14 Q In fact, Mr. Pierce instructed you to word the
15 letters in a specific way; is
that correct?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q Did you then inform Mr. Gordon of what Mr. Pierce
18 said?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And Mr. Gordon's response was that the attorney is
21 not going to run my business, I will do it my way; is that
22 correct?
23 A Yes. 24 Q Is it fair to say that that statement summed up 25 Mr. Gordon's philosophy of the business? I will do it my
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3933 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 way?
2 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor.
3 THE COURT: Sustained.
4 Q You testified yesterday that sometime in the Spring
5 of 1994, you had a conversation with Liz Sautter with
6 respect to the logs?
7 A Uh-huh.
8 THE COURT: Yes?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, I am sorry.
10 Q Can you be more specific, April, May, June?
11 A I am bad with dates. I can re
member by season pretty
12 much, but not by dates.
13 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, may we approach?
14 THE COURT: Come on up.
15
16 (Whereupon, at this time the following took place
17 at the sidebar.)
18 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, this was one of the
19 two hearsay objections which I made yesterday which your
20 Honor originally overruled, and then became the subject of
21 our -- my subsequent application after the jury went out.
22 And I thought this was included along with the Gaspar -- I
23 objected to this on the grounds of hearsay. 24 THE COURT: What are you talking about now? 25 MR. TRABULUS: The testimony by Liz Sautter, that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3934 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 she was asked, or the company was to maintain some kind of
2 a file for the penthouse in Manhattan.
3 The te
stimony given by the witness is she recalls
4 this being in the Spring of 1994, although she was
5 terrible with the dates.
6 I objected on hearsay grounds before
7 Ms. Sautter's -- the substance of Ms. Sautter's statements
8 was related to the jury. Your Honor overruled the
9 objection.
10 After the jury left yesterday when I asked your
11 Honor to reconsider the hearsay objections, I included
12 that one as well as the testimony about Gaspar's
13 statement.
14 Once again, your Honor, in the absence of a
15 finding that there was a conspiracy and that it was in
16 furtherance of it, it should not be admissible. It would
17 not be admissible against the corporations, because the
18 logs relate only to the tax counts and obstruction counts
19 which the corporations are charged, your Honor. And it is
20 not admissible against Mr. Gordon.
21 In light of
the present state of the record, I
22 would object to a question concerning this conversation.
23 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I think -- 24 THE COURT: What is going to happen here? What 25 is the conversation going to reveal?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3935 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 MR. WHITE: It was already revealed yesterday,
2 that Ms. Sautter --
3 THE COURT: Nothing new is coming out?
4 MR. WHITE: Today?
5 MR. WALLENSTEIN: I don't expect anything new to
6 come out. I expect to explore deeper into what happened.
7 THE COURT: What happened yesterday, refresh my
8 recollection?
9 MR. WHITE: The witness testified that
10 Ms. Sautter, the office manager told Ms. Benjamin that
11 she, Ms. Sautter, was keeping a log as to when people held
12 business meetings in the penthouse. And that if
13 Ms. Benj
amin in connection with her duties had meetings
14 there she should advise Ms. Sautter of that.
15 Now, the defendant's theory in cross-examining
16 Ms. Gaspar is that it was Ms. Gaspar's obligation to keep
17 those logs. And Mr. Trabulus' theory is when Ms. Gaspar
18 failed to do that, she on her own without informing Gordon
19 and Reffsin, created the log to cover up the dereliction
20 in her duties.
21 I think it may be admitted eventually as a
22 co-conspirator statement by Ms. Sautter.
23 You will recall that Ms. Sautter is involved in 24 other parts of the tax conspiracy. She is the one who 25 gave Mr. Gordon a supplemental card of her American
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3936 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 Express card assisting him in reporting that to the IRS.
2 Ms. Sautter is the one who told the other employees tha
t
3 they have to have a change in ownership, and we know
4 Mr. Gordon lied about the ownership of the company to the
5 IRS and to the bankruptcy court. Ms. Sautter is the one
6 who Dr. Grossman testified is the one who most likely
7 wrote the notes on those phony documents and instructed
8 him to sign them.
9 So, I think at a minimum since the jury already
10 heard it --
11 THE COURT: Tell me again what this witness said
12 that Ms. Sautter said about the matter.
13 MR. WHITE: This witness says that in the Spring
14 of 1994, approximately, Ms. Sautter, who was the office
15 manager, told her, Debra Benjamin, this witness, that she,
16 Liz Sautter was keeping a log of business meetings at the
17 penthouse, and if Ms. Benjamin held such meetings, to tell
18 her, Liz.
19 THE COURT: That's what you are objecting to,
20 that testimony?
21 MR. TRA
BULUS: Yes.
22 THE COURT: I am overruling the objection, and I
23 will do it again. 24 I am not quite sure that because the counts 25 involving a specific charge, not to include the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3937 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 corporation, would mean that the testimony of an employee
2 of the corporation would not come in. And I am not sure
3 about that. I am overruling the objection.
4 MR. TRABULUS: All right.
5
6 (Whereupon, at this time the following takes
7 place in open court.)
8 THE COURT: You may proceed.
9 Q Ms. Benjamin, you testified yesterday that you had
10 this conversation with Ms. Sautter in the Spring of '94
11 with respect to the logs, correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And what did she say?
14 A She just asked me to inform her if there was ever a
15 time t
hat I would be using the penthouse in Manhattan, to
16 let her know.
17 Q And she told you the reason was --
18 A She was keeping a log and she was keeping the
19 information.
20 Q Bear with me, I know you know the answer to the
21 question, but let me finish the question first.
22 A Sorry.
23 Q Did she tell you the same thing with respect to the 24 Hummingbird Road condo? 25 A She didn't indicate either or. I just presumed it
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3938 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 was Manhattan.
2 Q So, she didn't say the penthouse in Manhattan?
3 A She just said if you need to use the apartment.
4 And I believe it was directed at Manhattan in
5 particular, in recollection.
6 Q The word she used was "Apartment"?
7 A Yes.
8 Q It is possible she could have been referring to
9 Hummingbird Road?
10 A It is possible.
11 Q It is possible she could have been referring to both;
12 is that correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And she told you she was keeping a log with respect
15 to the usage of the apartment; is that correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And did she tell you what information was to be
18 contained in the log?
19 A No.
20 Q Did she tell you to tell you if you used the
21 apartment for a meeting, that she needed to know who was
22 there and what the purpose of the meeting was?
23 A No, it wasn't a big conversation. Just if you need 24 to use the apartment, I need to know, because I have a 25 log.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3939 Benjamin-cross/Wallenstein
1 Q She indicated she was the person keeping that log; is
2 that correct?
3 A Yes.
4 Q She didn't tell y
ou to go to Maria Gaspar?
5 A No.
6 Q Do you know whether or not Ms. Gaspar had any
7 meetings with Mr. Reffsin and Mr. Gordon in 1994?
8 A Yes.
9 Q How many times did she have such meetings?
10 A That I wouldn't know.
11 Q Were you present at any of them?
12 A No.
13 Q You testified yesterday with respect to a
14 conversation you had with Maria Gaspar; is that correct?
15 A Correct.
16 Q And she had indicated she had come from a meeting
17 with Mr. Gordon and Mr. Reffsin?
18 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.
19 THE COURT: Overruled.
20 Q Is that correct?
21 A That's right.
22 Q Do you know if in fact there was such a meeting on
23 that day? 24 A Do I know there was a meeting? I know she was in the 25 office with Bruce and Mr. Reffsin.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3940 Benjami
n-cross/Wallenstein
1 Q You are certain the three of them were together in
2 the office on that day?
3 A Yeah.
4 Q Do you know what was discussed?
5 A No.
6 Q She didn't tell you what was discussed?
7 A No.
8 Q Mr. Reffsin didn't tell you what was discussed?
9 A No.
10 Q And Mr. Gordon didn't tell you either?
11 A No.
12 Q Wouldn't it be fair to say that Ms. Gaspar's meeting
13 with Mr. Gordon and Mr. Reffsin in the office was not an
14 unusual occurrence?
15 A No, it was not unusual.
16 MR. WALLENSTEIN: No further questions.
17 Thank you, Ms. Benjamin.
18
19 CROSS-EXAMINATION
20 BY MR. TRABULUS:
21 Q Good morning, Ms. Benjamin.
22 A Good morning.
23 Q The last day you worked for Who's Who Worldwide was 24 the day of the raid; is that correct? 25 A Yes, that's right.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3941 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Suzanne Konopka who worked for you continued to work
2 after that as far as you know?
3 A Yes.
4 Q You understand she worked for no salary for a period
5 of time?
6 A Yes.
7 Q But you did not?
8 A I did not.
9 Q Now, after you worked for Who's Who Worldwide did you
10 have another job?
11 A Yes, I did.
12 Q And where was that first job you had?
13 A Communications Network Company in Manhattan.
14 Q Subsequently did you hire some people who were
15 working for Who's Who who -- to work there?
16 A Yes.
17 Q What did you start out within that firm?
18 A Office manager.
19 Q And did you rise up within the firm?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Did you rise up relatively quickly?
22 A Relatively quickly.
23 Q What position
did you reach? 24 A It was called a vice presidency, but it really 25 wasn't.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3942 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Now, let me ask you, you testified here that you
2 worked for Who's Who Worldwide a period of, it was about
3 three and a half years?
4 A I guess it would be two and a half.
5 Q Two and a half years?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And isn't it correct that during the time you worked
8 at Who's Who Worldwide, you did not believe that you were
9 committing any crime?
10 A Absolutely.
11 Q That's correct?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q Indeed, when agents -- when postal inspectors came
14 you initially spoke to them without any attorney present;
15 is that correct?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q And that's because you felt no crime was done by you
18 there; is tha
t correct?
19 A Of course.
20 Q As you sit here today, you believe that you committed
21 no crime?
22 A Absolutely.
23 Q And you were involved in arranging for mailings with 24 mailing lists; is that correct? 25 A That's correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3943 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And mailings to people who were going to get
2 solicitation letters that said they were nominated; is
3 that correct?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q And you knew the people's names came from mailing
6 lists; is that correct?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And you knew the solicitation letter would say
9 "nominated", correct?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Is it also correct that none of the solicitation
12 letters ever told any member -- withdrawn.
13 Is that correct that none of the solicitation
14 letters actually
said that the recipient had been
15 nominated by another member of Who's Who Worldwide? That
16 though always left open another possibility?
17 A To the best of my recollection, yes.
18 Q Were you familiar with the contents of the sales
19 presentations or scripts or pitches as they have been
20 referred to?
21 A No, just from what I would overhear.
22 Q Do you know as a matter of fact not a single one of
23 those sales presentations or scripts written by 24 Mr. Gordon, say that the person being spoken to says that 25 they were nominate by another member?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3944 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A I wouldn't have knowledge of that.
2 Q You wouldn't know that one way or another?
3 A No.
4 Q Going to the company you worked for afterward, the
5 communications company, did that company subseq
uently come
6 into some kind of trouble with the law?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Can you tell me, that trouble with the law had
9 absolutely nothing to do with Who's Who Worldwide, did it?
10 A Nothing at all.
11 Q It had absolutely nothing to do with Mr. Gordon; is
12 that correct?
13 A Nothing at all.
14 Q Nothing at all to do with Sterling, is that correct?
15 A Nothing at all.
16 Q The person who hired you, was he the head of that
17 company?
18 A No, he was not.
19 Q Did you have any contact with the head of the company
20 while you were working there?
21 A Of course, yes.
22 Q Did the head of the company subsequently go to jail?
23 A No. 24 Q Did the head of the company subsequently get 25 criminally charged?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3945 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 MR
. WHITE: Objection, your Honor.
2 THE COURT: Sustained.
3 A I wouldn't know.
4 THE COURT: Don't answer the question.
5 Q Did you begin working in cooperation with the
6 government in the investigation of the other company you
7 were working for?
8 A I don't understand the question.
9 Q Were you ever interviewed by any agent of the
10 government concerning the operations of the company you
11 went to work for after you left Who's Who Worldwide?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And --
14 THE COURT: Can we get the name of that company?
15 THE WITNESS: Communications Network.
16 THE COURT: The name of the company is
17 Communications Network?
18 THE WITNESS: Communications Network, Inc.
19 THE COURT: Company?
20 THE WITNESS: Communications Network, Inc.
21 THE COURT: All right.
22 Q Were you yourself ever charged with a crime there?
23
A No. 24 Q Were you yourself ever told that you might be a 25 target and charged with a crime in connection with that?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3946 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A No.
2 Q Were you yourself told that you might be under
3 investigation?
4 A Yes, at that point, yes.
5 Q Now, when you testified in the grand jury in this
6 case -- withdrawn.
7 Did you ever testify at any grand jury concerning
8 Communications Network, whatever the name of that company
9 was, the other company?
10 A No.
11 Q And when you testified in the grand jury concerning
12 this case, Who's Who Worldwide you were told you had some
13 immunity; is that correct? That you were going to be
14 given some kind of immunity; is that correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Were also told that your immunity was limited to your
17 employment at Who's Who Worldwide, or words to that
18 effect? Do you recall that?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And were you told to confine your answers to
21 questions relating to Who's Who Worldwide, between the
22 period you first began to work there in August or
23 September 1992, up until the point of time that you let in 24 March of 1995? 25 A I am not sure that I understand the question.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3947 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Sure.
2 MR. JENKS: Norman, slow down.
3 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you.
4 Q Do you remember testifying before the grand jury in
5 Brooklyn on March 5th, 1997?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And the person who questioned you there was
8 Mr. White; is that correct?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q Do you recall Mr. White advising you that you would
11 be receiving immu
nity for your testimony that day?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Indeed, after that you went outside to speak to your
14 attorney to have a further discussion with him, just to
15 the make sure you understood the nature of immunity; is
16 that correct?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q And then you came back into the grand jury room; is
19 that correct?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q And after that do you recall Mr. White asking you
22 this question, or this series of questions and you giving
23 this series of answers, and referring to 24 Government's Exhibit 7-A, among the 3500 material, at page 25 4, beginning at line 4.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3948 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Question: All right. Let me also say at the
2 outset here that my questions today are just solely
3 related to your employment at Who's Who Worldwi
de, and
4 they only relate to the time period that you were employed
5 there, which, I think, was from approximately 1992 to
6 March of '95.
7 Answer -- you speaking, yes, about that. No,
8 March of 1992?
9 Question: From a time in '92, to March of '95.
10 Answer: Yes, I guess it was about that question,
11 again, Mr. White speaking, so you can construe my
12 questions just to the refer to at that time period and
13 confine your answers to just what is relevant in that time
14 period, okay?
15 Answer: Yes.
16 Do you recall being given those questions and
17 giving those answers?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And before going into the grand jury room was it
20 explained to you that the immunity you would get would
21 only relate to answers that you gave to questions that
22 were put to you in the grand jury room?
23 A I don't understand.
2
4 Q Was it explained that you would get immunity, and 25 that the testimony you gave in the grand jury couldn't be
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3949 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 used against you? Was that explained to you?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Was it explained to you further that you just
4 couldn't blurt out something else that was not in response
5 to a question by Mr. White and get immunity from that just
6 by virtue of having said it?
7 A I do understand what you are asking.
8 Q Well, you didn't understand, did you, that when you
9 went into the grand jury room, you could write yourself a
10 blank check of immunity on anything you might have done
11 which might have been the subject of criminal charges, did
12 you?
13 A I still am not comprehending what you are asking.
14 Q Did Mr. White before you went into the grand jury
15 room tell you that there were certain things he wasn't
16 going to be asking you about?
17 A No.
18 Q Did Mr. White tell you that there were certain things
19 he wasn't going to be asking you about with regard to this
20 other company that you worked for that was in trouble?
21 A No. There was no discussion about that.
22 Q Did Mr. White tell you that you weren't supposed to
23 say anything about that other company that was under 24 investigation? 25 A No.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3950 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q At that point in time you had already spoken to the
2 agents concerning that other company, had you not?
3 A I believe I had.
4 Q Did your lawyer tell you that you shouldn't say
5 anything about that other company?
6 A No.
7 Q Yesterday you were asked certain questions con
cerning
8 a company called Transnational; is that correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And through Transnational Who's Who Worldwide
11 obtained discounts for its members on Airborne Express; is
12 that right?
13 A That's correct.
14 Q And Who's Who Worldwide also obtained discounts for
15 its members on automobile insurance; is that right?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q And you were asked to look at contracts entered into
18 between Who's Who Worldwide and Transnational; is that
19 correct?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q And you were asked by Mr. White about the fact that
22 Who's Who Worldwide received under certain circumstances
23 one percent or two percent of the monies that were paid by 24 its members to these companies; is that correct? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3951 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Now, under these contracts -- withdrawn.
2 Transnational, as you understand it is a separate
3 company from Airborne Express; is that correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And Transnational is a separate company from the
6 automobile insurance companies; is it not?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And you were also asked questions about telephone
9 usage. Was it also through Transnational?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And Transnational was completely separate from all
12 these companies who gave discounted services to the
13 members of Who's Who Worldwide?
14 A To my understanding.
15 Q Transnational is a business?
16 A Yes.
17 Q In business to make money?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Just like Who's Who Worldwide was?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And do the contracts say that Who's Who Worldwide is
22 to pay Transnational anything for its services?
23 A No. 24 Q Do you b
elieve that Transnational was providing these 25 services and acting as a broker perhaps for Airborne
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3952 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Express and other companies, do you have reason to believe
2 that Transnational was doing this for free?
3 A No.
4 Q And is it fair that Transnational was being paid by
5 Airborne Freight or the insurance company, whoever it was
6 brokering for, for Transnational to have obtained the
7 Who's Who account for them?
8 A I would feel so.
9 Q Did Who's Who Worldwide inquire of Transnational as
10 to how much it was being paid by Airborne Freight, how
11 much Transnational was being made by Airborne Freight?
12 A No.
13 Q Or the insurance company?
14 A No.
15 Q Or by Sprint?
16 A No.
17 Q Who's Who Worldwide didn't care?
18 A N
o.
19 Q Is that fair to say?
20 A Very fair.
21 Q Who's Who Worldwide was not disturbed that
22 Transnational was concealing from it the fact that it was
23 obtaining money from Airborne Freight, was it? 24 MR. WHITE: Objection, concealing. 25 THE COURT: Overruled.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3953 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A Concealing? I don't think it was an issue.
2 Q Now, did any members -- withdrawn.
3 In the course of your work at Who's Who Worldwide
4 did you have occasion to speak to members on the
5 telephone?
6 A On occasion, yes.
7 Q Did you ever have occasion to hear from other
8 employees who worked with you or for you about
9 conversations that they had with members on the telephone?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Did any of the members -- withdrawn.
12 Did any member ever ask you
as to whether Who's
13 Who Worldwide was getting something about providing the
14 Airborne Freight discounted service.
15 MR. WHITE: Objection.
16 THE COURT: Overruled.
17 A I don't recall anyone asking.
18 Q Did you ever hear that any member of Who's Who
19 Worldwide was upset at the prospect that Who's Who
20 Worldwide might be getting one or two percent, and that
21 their discount should have been 42 percent or 41 percent
22 instead of 40 percent?
23 A No. I never heard anything like that. 24 Q Is it fair to say as far as you can tell no member of 25 Who's Who Worldwide cared?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3954 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yeah.
2 Q Is it also fair to say that the arrangement that
3 Who's Who Worldwide had with Transnational was mutually
4 beneficial to the members as well as to W
ho's Who
5 Worldwide; is that correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q The members got a substantial discount over what they
8 would have had to pay. And Who's Who Worldwide got a
9 small percentage of that money; is that right?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q And the language deleted -- withdrawn.
12 You were shown some scripts yesterday; is that
13 correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And those were scripts prepared by Transnational; is
16 that correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And Transnational was a company whose business
19 involved speaking to people by telephone; is that correct?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q And they had people there who were especially --
22 whose job it was to talk to people by telephone; is that
23 correct? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q And Transnational, as far as you understood it,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORT
ER 3955 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 prepared scripts for those people -- for the people who
2 spoke to the people on the telephone, correct?
3 A Correct.
4 Q The scripts had various things to say, correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Sometimes they would have different alternatives
7 depending on what the person being spoken to responded?
8 THE COURT: You have to slow down, Mr. Trabulus.
9 MR. TRABULUS: Sorry.
10 THE COURT: Do you want to repeat that question,
11 please?
12 MR. TRABULUS: Yes. I will get a drink of
13 water.
14 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
15 proceedings.)
16 Q Let me just go back a second.
17 Is it fair to say that insofar as you were
18 concerned, there was absolutely nothing wrong with Who's
19 Who Worldwide receiving money from Airborne Freight --
20 withdrawn -- from Transnational, in con
nection with the
21 services that it brokered for members?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Now, Transnational provided scripts for Who's Who 24 Worldwide to review; is that correct? 25 A Correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3956 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And those scripts were scripts which Transnational
2 prepared for its employees to use, correct?
3 A Correct.
4 Q And basically, those employees were telemarketers; is
5 that correct?
6 A I imagine, yes.
7 Q And they would talk to people on the telephone and
8 try to sell them on the idea of getting into one of these
9 discount programs?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Is that what was understood?
12 A Uh-huh.
13 Q Now, there was some language deleted from the
14 scripts; is that correct?
15 A Correct.
16 Q And that language suggested that the
re would be a
17 donation to Who's Who Worldwide based upon the usage of
18 these discounted programs; is that correct?
19 A That's correct.
20 Q Or the monies would be a contribution to Who's Who
21 Worldwide, correct?
22 A That's correct.
23 Q To help it meets its goals and objectives; is that 24 correct? 25 A Correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3957 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And is it your understanding that that type of
2 language is normally included where the company, the
3 company involved, or the entity involved, providing the
4 benefit to members, is a charity?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q And the idea is you want to let the people know they
7 are helping their clarity every time they send something
8 by Airborne Freight?
9 A That's right.
10 Q That would not apply to Who'
s Who Worldwide, would
11 it?
12 A No.
13 Q And Who's Who Worldwide was a money making business?
14 A Absolutely.
15 Q Now, the scripts that were provided by Transnational,
16 they provided that the people who spoke over the telephone
17 to Who's Who Worldwide members and called them up,
18 inquiring about the discount programs, they provided that
19 those people, the telemarketers at Transnational, would
20 say certain things; is that correct?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q They contained sometimes different alternatives
23 depending on what the person on the other end of the 24 telephone said; is that correct? 25 A Correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3958 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q They contained things called closes; is that correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q That's a kind of common term in the sales
business,
4 correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q That's a line you use either to close a deal or to
7 close a conversation; is that correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And they provided with a list of possible answers
10 that could be given in the event that a question was asked
11 by somebody who was being spoken to on the phone; is that
12 correct?
13 A Correct.
14 Q Now, there is nothing, as you understand it, there is
15 nothing wrong with doing that, is there, with having such
16 a script?
17 A I can't understand anything wrong with it.
18 Q Indeed, it helps insure accuracy on the part of the
19 people who are on the telephone, does it not?
20 A It does.
21 Q It insures consistency?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And it is something that should be done in every 24 business in which sales methods involve telephone sales; 25 is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3959 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A I don't know if I can make a blanket statement like
2 that. But I would say for consistency purposes, yes, if
3 there is a lot of points to be making.
4 Q If there are a lot of points and a lot of people
5 speaking over the telephone?
6 A Correct.
7 Q As opposed to one person selling things over the
8 telephone and has complete control of what he or her is
9 saying?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Now, is it correct that about a week or so before the
12 raid, the raid which resulted in your leaving Who's Who
13 Worldwide, there was a visit paid to the offices of
14 Sterling -- was it Sterling -- by Inspector Biegelman, or
15 was it the Lake Success office?
16 A No, it was the Sterling offices.
17 Q Were you there at the time?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And was M
r. Gordon there at the time?
20 A Yes, he was.
21 Q Mr. Biegelman did not tell you or Mr. Gordon that he
22 had any complaint with the business of Who's Who Worldwide
23 or Sterling, did he? 24 A Not at all. 25 Q Who did he speak to first, to you or to Mr. Gordon?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3960 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A Mr. Gordon asked me to initiate the phone call to
2 Mr. Biegelman.
3 Q Mr. Gordon asked you himself to call Inspector
4 Biegelman?
5 A That's right.
6 Q What was the purpose of the phone call to Inspector
7 Biegelman?
8 A It was twofold at that point. We had an employee who
9 had left and was diverting members' money to his home
10 saying he was a clearing house for Who's Who.
11 Q Is that Joe Parks?
12 A Yes, it was.
13 Q Continue.
14 A There was als
o another Who's Who that had come about,
15 and Mr. Gordon had some concerns about that.
16 Q There was another Who's Who that had come about, and
17 Mr. Gordon had concerns that that Who's Who was giving
18 other Who's Whos, including his own, a bad name?
19 A That's correct.
20 Q And people might confuse what this other Who's Who
21 was doing with what his own business was doing; is that
22 correct?
23 A That is correct. 24 Q And blame on his business things that this other 25 Who's Who was doing, correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3961 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A That's correct.
2 Q Is it the purpose of inviting a postal inspector
3 there was to explain that to the postal inspector; is that
4 correct?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q And Inspector Biegelman showed up; is that correct?
7 A Ins
pector Biegelman and Inspector Pagano.
8 Q And did Mr. Gordon speak to them?
9 A Absolutely.
10 Q Did you speak to them?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Did Mr. Gordon talk about his own business?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Did he talk about their business -- excuse me, the
15 other businesses that he was complaining about?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And did Mr. Gordon show them around the facilities?
18 A Yes, he did.
19 Q Did he compare and contrast his business with what he
20 was complaining about in the other businesses?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Before these people came there to look around -- to
23 the telephone call, Mr. Gordon did not take anything off 24 the walls, did he? 25 A Not that I am aware of.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3962 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q He didn't warn the salespeople that they had been on
2 their best behavior, did he?
3 A I wouldn't know that.
4 Q As far as you know nothing like that was done. It
5 was simply a request that people from the government, law
6 enforcement people come, because Mr. Gordon had a
7 complaint to them -- made to the law enforcement people
8 about what other people were doing, doing something wrong;
9 is that correct?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q Now, you testified yesterday concerning nomination
12 ballots; is that correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And nomination ballots were ballots which were cards
15 that were sent in by members; is that correct?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q And on those cards they could list other people, who
18 they were proposing for membership in Who's Who Worldwide
19 or Sterling; is that right?
20 A That is correct.
21 Q And they would list the name of the person and
22 perhaps t
heir business or phone number; is that correct?
23 A Correct. 24 Q And is it fair to say that before a nomination card 25 came in, Who's Who Worldwide would have no other
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3963 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 information, or even be aware of the existence of the
2 person on the nomination card, unless, perhaps, that
3 person happened to be on one of the mailing lists?
4 A That would be fair to say.
5 Q The mailing lists, which you were involved in
6 renting, they did not contain phone numbers, did they?
7 A No.
8 Q They contained names, addresses and titles and
9 information of that sort; is that correct?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And the mailing lists themselves, we call it mailing
12 lists, but they really weren't pieces of paper, were they?
13 A No, they were tapes.
14 Q When you say
tapes, they were computer tapes?
15 A Yes, uh-huh.
16 Q They weren't physically on the premises of Who's Who
17 Worldwide?
18 A Prior to the mailing?
19 Q That's right.
20 A No. In some cases they were, if they were sent to
21 our office just to hold. We had no way of reading them.
22 Q Okay.
23 But if they were physically on the premises, you 24 have no way of reading them, they were just being 25 physically held there; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3964 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes, uh-huh.
2 Q It would be the mailing company, or the mailing
3 houses that would read them; is that correct?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q And they would generate a set of labels, or whatever,
6 and so forth, and send the mail; is that correct?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Now, are you familiar with the
procedures that were
9 utilized by the sales personnel in contacting a
10 prospective member whose name had been obtained from a
11 nomination ballot?
12 A The procedure used?
13 Q Yes.
14 A They were giving them out as lead cards.
15 Q So, in that event, the salesperson would call the
16 person whose name was on the nomination ballot; is that
17 correct?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q Is it the person who would be called would not
20 previously have received anything in writing from Who's
21 Who Worldwide; is that correct?
22 A Unless they were on a mailing list.
23 Q Unless they also happened to be on a mailing list? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3965 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A That's correct.
2 Q And is it fair to say that if somebody received a
3 telephone call first before receiving anything in writing
4 from Who's Who Worldwide, it is fair to say that that
5 person would be somebody whose name had come from a
6 nomination ballot?
7 A That would be fair.
8 Q Now, you have seen lead cards, have you not?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And you were shown some yesterday; is that correct?
11 A Uh-huh.
12 Q Mr. White showed them to you; is that correct?
13 A Uh-huh.
14 Q And they had little codes on them; is that correct?
15 A Uh-huh, yes.
16 Q And the ones you saw were filled out with somebody's
17 name on them; is that correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And had you ever seen some that were blank?
20 A Yes.
21 Q In fact, were there not blank leads cards maintained
22 on the premises of Who's Who Worldwide?
23 A Yes. 24 Q And was one of the things that Mr. Gordon asked you 25 to do,
was to have the people working for you to go
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3966 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 through various publications, the Wall Street Journal, and
2 things of that sort and see the names of people who had
3 been promoted?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And those people would sometimes be sent a
6 solicitation letter and a lead card; is that correct?
7 A Yes. In a few cases, yes.
8 Q And those lead cards -- withdrawn.
9 When the lead cards were printed up, they were
10 all printed up with some sort of code on them; is that
11 correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q You never saw a lead cards that was blank in terms of
14 not having any code?
15 A There may have been one that we had that didn't have
16 a code on it.
17 Q There may have been, but you are not certain?
18 A Not certain.
19 Q And the le
ad cards sent out to these people who were
20 nominated -- withdrawn.
21 Who were selected from publications or trade
22 journals or whatever, they may have had codes on them?
23 A They may have. 24 Q You are not sure? 25 A I am not 100 percent sure.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3967 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Basically there would be a certain percent of blank
2 lead cards that would be obtained from the company that
3 printed them, that would be kept in-house; is that
4 correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Now, do you know whether or not after the salespeople
7 contacted somebody whose name had come from a nomination
8 ballot or whose phone number came from a nomination
9 ballot, after making that initial phone call, do you know
10 after that if a letter and a lead card would sometimes be
11 sent to one of tho
se people?
12 A I don't understand what you are asking. In other
13 words --
14 Q I will withdraw the question and rephrase it.
15 We are talking now about a situation, in which we
16 have a prospective member who has been nominated, okay?
17 A Uh-huh.
18 Q Are you with me?
19 A Yes, I am with you.
20 Q And that person's phone number has been derived from
21 a nomination ballot, correct?
22 A Yes.
23 Q A salesperson calls that person up and speaks to them 24 concerning Who's Who Worldwide. 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3968 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And that person has not previously received anything
2 in writing from Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And are you aware whether in such a situation, after
5 an indication of interest from that person, a l
etter and
6 leader card would have been sent to the person nominated
7 on the nomination ballot?
8 A I don't believe so.
9 Q Do you know for a fact one way or the other?
10 A Do I know for a fact one way or another? No, I
11 wouldn't --
12 Q Would that be something within your department?
13 A I would presume it would be.
14 Q It would be? Not something within administration?
15 A It may have been at that point. I don't know how
16 that was handled.
17 Q Okay.
18 So, if we had a situation in which a prospective
19 member was first contacted by telephone and only
20 afterwards received the lead card, would that suggest to
21 you that that person had actually been nominated, and then
22 after a conversation with a telephone -- withdrawn.
23 Would that suggest to you that that person's name 24 had actually come from a nomination ballot, and aft
er an 25 initial telephone call, a blank lead card was mailed to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3969 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 that person?
2 MR. WHITE: Objection.
3 THE COURT: Sustained.
4 Q Now, I think yesterday you testified about a trip
5 that had been proposed and planned for to Vietnam and Hong
6 Kong?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q And the name of the company through which this was to
9 be done was a company owned by a man named Paul Elmstrom?
10 A That's correct.
11 MR. TRABULUS: Do you have Exhibit 41-E, I
12 believe?
13 MR. WHITE: What was it?
14 (Counsel confer.)
15 Q While they are looking for that, let me ask you, you
16 say there were 50,000 brochures made available from --
17 A It was a large quantity of brochures.
18 Q Was this, these brochures with the name Who's Who on
19 them?
20 A Yes.
21 Q These were provided you say free of charge by the
22 company putting together the tour?
23 A Yes. 24 Q 50,000 brochures? 25 A I am not sure of the quantity. It was a large
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3970 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 quantity they provided.
2 Q And there was no charge at all for the 50,000
3 brochures; is that correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q You say Mr. Gordon didn't want to have a separate
6 mailing for these brochures because of the cost; is that
7 correct?
8 A There was a big cost.
9 Q Postage cost?
10 A Yes.
11 Q There were mailings made in new member packets; is
12 that correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And is it also not the case that the salespeople were
15 directed to call up existing members and advise them of
16 them?
17 A I would have no knowledge.
18 Q You would have no way to know, one way or the other?
19 A No.
20 Q The cost of mailing approximately 50,000 brochures,
21 would that be approximately $20,000 at bulk mailing rates?
22 A Somewhere around there.
23 Q Now, I am going to show you what I believe is not in 24 evidence, but for identification as 41-E. 25 (Handed to the witness.)
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3971 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Do you recognize it?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Take a look at the other side, too? The back of it.
4 You can take it out of the sheet. It is one sheet, I
5 believe. And look at it carefully.
6 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
7 proceedings.)
8 Q Do you recognize 41-E?
9 A Yes, I do.
10 Q What is 41-E.
11 A It was a membership update, p
rograms and services
12 that were coming up or events that were going to be
13 happening.
14 Q When you say it went out to the members, to which
15 members did it go out?
16 A Who's Who Worldwide members.
17 Q All of them?
18 A I believe it did.
19 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I don't believe it is
20 in evidence at this point. I offer it in evidence.
21 THE COURT: I object?
22 MR. GEDULDIG: Can I see it, Judge?
23 MR. SCHOER: Norman, it is in evidence as 24 Defendant's Exhibit J. J is in evidence. It is the same 25 thing.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3972 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I am informed it is in
2 evidence as Defendant's Exhibit J. I was not aware of
3 that.
4 THE COURT: There is a J, for Jack, in evidence.
5 I don't know what it is. I have a list o
f benefits, in my
6 unofficial list.
7 MR. TRABULUS: It appears to be a photocopy of
8 this.
9 THE COURT: If it is in as J for Jack, you don't
10 need it, right?
11 MR. TRABULUS: I don't need it.
12 THE COURT: As 41-E, for Easy, you don't need
13 it.
14 MR. GEDULDIG: Judge, I am going to make a
15 request. It is in as Defendant's Exhibit J. It is also
16 marked as a Government's Exhibit, 41-E. As a packet
17 relating to the witness Spencer who testified earlier,
18 your Honor, that's how it is indicated. If it is going to
19 go in evidence, I would move to have the document marked
23 MR. GEDULDIG: Correct. 24 THE COURT: Any objection? 25 MR. WHITE: No, except Mr. Spencer testified he
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3973 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 didn't recall seeing this. But I have no objection to its
2 admission.
3 THE COURT: All right. Government's Exhibit 41-E
4 in evidence.
5 (Government's Exhibit 41-E received in evidence.)
6 Q Now, Ms. Benjamin, I am going to be showing you
7 this. And this document lists various upcoming events and
8 offers to members; is that correct?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q And this was sent out before the events that were
11 listed in it were to occur?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q I would like you to read to the jury the portion that
14 says Who's Who Worldwide business conferences, that
15 paragraph.
16 A The first Who's Who Worldwide business conference is
17 departing Los Angeles --
18 THE COURT: You have to go slower, much slower.
19 THE WITNESS
: I am sorry.
20 You got it to Los Angeles?
21 THE COURT: It never fails, everybody who
22 reads --
23 JUROR NO. 4: Except me. 24 THE COURT: Except me. 25 Reads faster than they speak.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3974 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Ms. Benjamin speaks in a very modulated and easy
2 to hear tone. But when she reads she accelerates. Now, I
3 am going to do a study on that, as I said, after I retire.
4 However, since I do not intend to ever retire,
5 and I am appointed for life, I don't know when I am going
6 to do this study.
7 You may proceed.
8 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
9 On December 28th, for Hong Kong and Vietnam.
10 Enjoy deluxe accommodations, fine dining and informative
11 business meetings, all for $3,285 per person.
12 Q Thank you.
13 A Do you want me to finish t
he paragraph?
14 Q Yes.
15 A All right.
16 Due to the special reduced price this conference
17 is for Who's Who Worldwide members and their guests only.
18 Q Now, that went out to all Who's Who Worldwide members
19 at the time, as far as you know; is that correct?
20 A As far as I know, yes.
21 Q And so, when Mr. Gordon rejected the idea of a
22 separate 20,000 mailing of brochures that were furnished
23 by the company, there already was a mailing announcing 24 this program to people, correct? 25 A I imagine, yeah, at that time.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3975 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And it wasn't that he didn't want people not to know
2 about it?
3 A Oh, no.
4 Q Far from it. Is that correct that he expressed to
5 you his desire that people go on this?
6 A Absolutely.
7 Q No
w, at the time that that was sent out to the
8 members, is it fair to say that everything in there
9 concerning that Vietnam and Hong Kong trip was true?
10 A Yes.
11 Q It was being planned exactly as it is being shown
12 here; is that correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Now, this particular trip -- withdrawn.
15 There is an 800 number there, is there not,
16 listed in connection with that?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And that 800 number is not an 800 number at Who's Who
19 Worldwide, was it?
20 A No.
21 Q It was at Mr. Elmstrom's company?
22 A Mr. Elmstrom's tour operating office.
23 Q Is it fair to say that all the arrangements to be 24 made by any member who wanted to go on this would have to 25 be made through Mr. Elmstrom's company?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3976 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A That's
correct.
2 Q Is it the payment would go to Mr. Elmstrom's company;
3 is that correct?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q And this was different from the Hilton Head
6 conference in that it was a piggyback; is that correct?
7 A Yes. That's correct.
8 Q And the trip -- the seminar was going to occur
9 regardless of whether anybody from Who's Who Worldwide
10 went along on this; is that correct?
11 A That's correct.
12 THE COURT: Which one are you referring to?
13 MR. TRABULUS: The Vietnam and Hong Kong trip.
14 THE COURT: Ms. Benjamin, in this notice it
15 says: Is departing Los Angeles on December 28th. Do you
16 know what year that was?
17 THE WITNESS: I believe that was '93. I am not
18 100 percent -- I am terrible with dates.
19 THE COURT: Your best recollection is that it was
20 1993?
21 THE WITNESS: I would think so, yes.
22 THE
COURT: All right.
23 Q This trip was going to occur regardless of whether 24 anybody from Who's Who Worldwide went along, so long as 25 the American Bar Association didn't cancel it; is that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3977 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 correct?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q And is it your understanding that the American Bar
4 Association trip did occur?
5 A Yes.
6 Q So, the plane did leave to go to the conference; is
7 that correct?
8 A As far as I know.
9 Q Now, this was a benefit that was offered to the
10 members, was it not?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And it is true that the benefit was provided,
13 correct?
14 A It was offered.
15 Q It was actually provided, but just that the members
16 did not avail themselves of that?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Was the purpose to orient
members of Who's Who
19 Worldwide on the local laws of the countries being
20 visited, to meet with officials of the country? Were
21 those among the purposes?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And to facilitate import and export type dealings 24 between members -- between these countries? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3978 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q It was a business type trip more than a vacation type
2 trip that was being planned?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And it was arranged by and on behalf of Who's Who
5 Worldwide; is that correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And as far as you know -- withdrawn.
8 I believe you testified that if more than a
9 certain number of people from Who's Who Worldwide signed
10 up, Who's Who Worldwide could have received a free trip
11 from one of its staff people; is that correct?
12 A
Yes.
13 Q Who could have been able to accompany the members; is
14 that correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And if -- I suppose if double the amount would have
17 signed up perhaps two free trips would have been obtained,
18 something like that?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And is it also correct that because of the piggyback
21 nature of this, there was no minimum number of Who's Who
22 Worldwide people who had to seen up to go?
23 A Minimum number? 24 Q There was no minimum number. If only one Who's Who 25 Worldwide person signed up they would have been able to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3979 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 go; is that correct?
2 A I imagine they could have, yes.
3 Q And in that event Who's Who Worldwide would not have
4 obtained a free trip; is that correct?
5 A I don't remember what the breakdown w
as for the free
6 trips.
7 Q Certainly, Who's Who Worldwide was not going to be
8 given a three $3,200 trip to Vietnam and Hong Kong simply
9 because one of its members signed up for a $3,200 trip?
10 A Yes.
11 Q So, in terms of -- as you sit here today, do you in
12 fact know that none of the people -- withdrawn.
13 As you sit here today you know that Who's Who
14 Worldwide was not given a free trip; is that correct?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q And as you sit here today, do you in fact know
17 whether some member of Who's Who Worldwide members, be it
18 one, two or three, less than the number required to
19 establish the free trip went on this trip? Do you know
20 for a fact?
21 A Well, Mr. Elmstrom told me nobody from Who's Who
22 Worldwide signed up.
23 Q When was that? 24 A Right before -- 25 Q There was no deadline, somebody coul
d have signed up
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3980 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 right before; is that correct?
2 A I don't know. There were visas and things like that
3 involved.
4 Q Is it not true that as far as Who's Who Worldwide had
5 done, it had done everything that it could to facilitate
6 members going on this trip?
7 A Yes.
8 Q It had provided the benefit; is that correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And the members did not avail themselves of it,
11 correct?
12 A Correct.
13 Q Now, when you were first hired at Who's Who
14 Worldwide, is it fair to say that dealing with the mailing
15 lists was not your principal responsibility?
16 A Correct.
17 Q In fact, you were hired specifically to run the
18 member benefit programs; is that correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And I think you testified
yesterday that when you
21 first began working there, the benefits were limited; is
22 that correct?
23 A Correct. 24 Q You were hired because Mr. Gordon had decided that 25 there were going to be more benefits, and they were going
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3981 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 to be expanding, and he needed somebody to be in charge of
2 that; is that correct?
3 A Correct.
4 Q So, it was his idea to expand the benefits over what
5 they were at the point when you were hired rather than
6 your idea; is that correct?
7 A It was mutual in terms of taking on more of an
8 association type persona.
9 Q Is it your testimony that before you were at Who's
10 Who Worldwide, there was simply a publishing company which
11 published a book rather than a membership organization?
12 A To my perception
?
13 Q Well, no, not your perception.
14 Before you began working at Who's Who Worldwide,
15 was Who's Who Worldwide a membership organization, as far
16 as you know?
17 A I don't really know if it was a membership
18 organization at that point.
19 Q Certainly, it was not your suggestion that it be a
20 membership organization, was it?
21 A I felt that it should take on more of an interactive
22 role.
23 Q And, indeed, Mr. Gordon felt that way, too, and 24 that's why he hired you; is that correct? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3982 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 MR. TRABULUS: May I have the binder that has
2 Exhibit 243 in it?
3 MR. SCHOER: Your Honor, may we take a break
4 now? I have to go to the bathroom.
5 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we will take a
6 ten-minute recess
now, please do not discuss the case, and
7 please recess yourselves.
8 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the
9 courtroom.)
10
11 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.)
12
13 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the
14 courtroom.)
15 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the
16 jury.
17 You may proceed, Mr. Trabulus.
18 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you.
19 Q Before we get back to what I was asking you about,
20 let me ask you, was there ever a time that Maria Gaspar
21 told you that you were being listed as having attended a
22 meeting that didn't exist?
23 A Not that I remember. 24 Q Was there ever a time you were together with Suzanne 25 Konopka and Tracey Colletti and Maria Gaspar came up to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3983 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 you and said, just so
you know, you were at a certain
2 place on a certain date? Do you recall anything like
3 that?
4 A I don't recall any such conversation.
5 Q When was it that you found -- withdrawn.
6 Mr. White showed you Exhibit 643, a set of logs
7 about the Hummingbird Road and the penthouse apartment.
8 And he asked you about certain items showing your name at
9 non-existing meetings; do you recall that?
10 A Yes.
11 Q When was the first time you saw those logs?
12 A These logs?
13 Q The ones that Mr. White showed you?
14 A I believe it was at the grand jury.
15 Q Okay.
16 When was the first time that you heard that your
17 name appeared in logs for meetings that didn't happen?
18 A I guess it was at the same time.
19 (Counsel confer.)
20 Q Now, I am showing you Exhibit 243 in evidence. And
21 that's one of the solicitation letters you identifi
ed; is
22 that correct.
23 (Handed to the witness.) 24 A Yes. 25 Q And this is one of the solicitation letters sent out
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3984 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 before you came to be with Who's Who Worldwide; is that
2 right?
3 The date is December 10th, 1990?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Is that right?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And that's more than a year before you first came to
8 work at Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And this letter refers to the recipient as a possible
11 member listee; is that correct?
12 A A member, dash, listee.
13 Q Is that correct that even as early as December 10th,
14 1990, as far as you can tell, Who's Who Worldwide was a
15 membership organization?
16 A The terminology is in the letter.
17 Q The -- withdrawn.
18
Are you familiar with the registries ever
19 published?
20 A Yes.
21 Q At the back of the registries there is a section,
22 listees; is that correct?
23 A Yes. 24 Q And the listees are people who were not joined as 25 members; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3985 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes.
2 Q They paid nothing; is that correct?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And they were still listed; is that correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q There was less information given about them than the
7 people who were members; is that correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q It still had their name, title and their business
10 address; is that correct?
11 A Yes, I believe so, yes.
12 Q In each book there were perhaps a thousand or so?
13 A Yes.
14 Q These people agreed to be listed, but declined to
15 p
urchase a membership or a directory; is that correct?
16 A I imagine, yeah.
17 Q Is it your understanding -- withdrawn.
18 Did there come a point in time when you traveled
19 to California with Mr. Gordon and with Tara Garboski?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And that was for business purposes, was it not?
22 A Yes, it was.
23 Q And that was for the purposes of obtaining space in 24 California for a business location there? 25 A That's correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3986 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And while he was there, Mr. Gordon actually
2 interviewed people as prospective employees there; is that
3 correct?
4 A I believe so, yes.
5 Q Now, in fact, there was a lease that was actually
6 prepared, although not signed for a particular premises;
7 is that correct?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q A
ll right.
10 And several things presented that from happening;
11 is that correct? There was an earthquake; is that
12 correct, Ms. Benjamin?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And Mr. Gordon's son died?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And eventually there was -- down the road there was
17 the government raid; is that correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Are you familiar with the company known as Registry
20 Publishing?
21 A Registry Publishing?
22 Q Registry Publishing. One of the companies -- do you
23 recall the name, Registry Publishing? 24 A No. 25 Q Do you recall that there was to be a separate,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3987 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 although affiliated company that was to run, the
2 California operation?
3 A No.
4 Q Did Mr. Gordon discuss that with you?
5 A No.
6 Q One way or
the other?
7 A No.
8 Q He didn't necessarily discuss with you the corporate
9 structure of the businesses; is that correct?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q All right.
12 Now, you were shown some orders yesterday for
13 mailing lists, orders placed by Who's Who Worldwide; is
14 that correct?
15 A Yes, correct.
16 Q All right.
17 Is it correct that sometimes Who's Who Worldwide
18 would order mailing lists that were to be used for test
19 marketing; is that correct?
20 A Yes, that's correct.
21 Q And when we say test marketing, it is for use for
22 something other than Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?
23 A I don't know. 24 Q Are you familiar with the company, Williams Who's 25 Who?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3988 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes.
2 Q Is that anoth
er type of Who's Who company that
3 Mr. Gordon was contemplating starting?
4 A Yes.
5 Q It was to be different than Who's Who Worldwide; is
6 that correct?
7 A Yes.
8 Q The people in it were not to be the same level of
9 achievement; is that correct?
10 A Yes.
11 Q A lower level of achievement?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And it was test marketed?
14 A Yes, it was.
15 Q A mailing was sent out to see whether or not people
16 would be interested in that?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Was that utilizing mailing list that were paid for
19 and obtained by Who's Who Worldwide?
20 A They were obtained by us, yes.
21 Q All right.
22 When you were shown a set of mailing list --
23 withdrawn. 24 Yesterday Mr. White directed your attention to 25 various mailing lists, or orders that were placed; is that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, C
P, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3989 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 correct?
2 A Yes, correct.
3 Q And some of them were segmented to be just CEOs or
4 top executives; is that correct?
5 A Yes, correct.
6 Q All right.
7 There was another to I think U.S. News and World
8 Reports; is that correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And another was to Working Women; correct?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Do you know whether or not the U.S. News and World
13 Reports one was used for test marketing and other
14 publications?
15 A I don't know offhand.
16 Q The same with Working Women, do you know offhand?
17 A Not offhand.
18 Q Is it fair to say that Who's Who Worldwide mailing
19 lists in general were targeted to high level executives?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Business owners?
22 A Yes, I would say that's correct.
23 Q As far as you know did
Mr. Gordon ever seek to have 24 the word "owner" deleted from any directory? 25 A Owner?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3990 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Owner.
2 A No.
3 Q Not at all? He had no problem with the word "owner"
4 appearing in the directory; is that correct?
5 A I don't think so.
6 Q Yesterday you testified that -- withdrawn.
7 Is it correct that Wendi Springer would from time
8 to time come to you and ask you whether or not certain
9 people were qualified to be members?
10 A Yes, on occasion.
11 Q Is it fair to say as you understand it, she would do
12 that more frequently with Mr. Gordon?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And is it fair to say that Mr. Gordon would
15 frequently say to her, no, they are not qualified?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And those people would not be included?
18 A I
don't know how it was handled at that stage, but I
19 know that he did reject quite a few.
20 Q Now, do you know whether -- withdrawn.
21 I think you testified in a question to
22 Mr. Wallenstein that Mr. Gordon knew everything going on
23 in the country -- in the company; is that correct? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And certainly he made it a point to keep himself
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3991 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 apprised of everything going on in the company as he
2 could?
3 A Yes.
4 Q He couldn't be everywhere at the same time; is that
5 correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And he couldn't speak to everyone at the same time,
8 could he?
9 A Of course.
10 Q If Wendi Springer chose not to bring a particular
11 card to Mr. Gordon as to whether that person was
12 qualified, do you know if that card
would get to
13 Mr. Gordon?
14 MR. WHITE: Objection.
15 THE COURT: Overruled.
16 Q You can answer.
17 A In other words, if she didn't go to Mr. Gordon with
18 it and just used her own --
19 Q Judgment.
20 A Would it ever get to him?
21 Q Would he have occasion to review it himself, do you
22 know?
23 A Not usually. 24 Q Were there other people besides Wendi Springer who 25 also reviewed cards for qualifications?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3992 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A In reality the, from what I understand the group
2 leaders and salespeople looked at the cards first.
3 Q Were there other people who exercised the function
4 comparable to Wendi Springer's at her level in terms of
5 reviewing cards --
6 A Yes.
7 Q -- at her stage?
8 A Reviewing membership app
lications?
9 Q Yes.
10 A Yes.
11 Q And that is after they had already gone through the
12 sales people; is that correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And so, she wasn't the only one who did that; is that
15 correct?
16 A I don't think she was.
17 Q Who were some of the others who did it?
18 A It was other girls in administration.
19 Q Can you tell me some of their names?
20 A Christina, I believe, I don't know if she edited, but
21 I believe Christina, maybe Doreen, most of the girls who
22 did the order entry.
23 Q They would also from time to time ask Mr. Gordon if 24 someone was qualified or not; is that correct? 25 A Once in a while, yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3993 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q If he felt they were not qualified, he would say no;
2 is that correct?
3 A That is
correct.
4 Q And if they made a mistake -- withdrawn.
5 Again, if one of those, maybe Wendy or one of the
6 other people decided on their own to let a card go through
7 and not bring it to Mr. Gordon's attention, would he know
8 at that point as to whether that person would be given a
9 membership?
10 A No.
11 Q It would only come to him through one of those
12 people; is that correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Mr. Gordon, of course, gave people instructions that
15 he didn't want certain types of people in the Who's Who
16 Worldwide Registry; is that correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And people who would -- who had no need for a
19 Registry that would be or might be used for business
20 networking; is that correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q In other words, he might tell -- were you at sales
23 meetings where he would say he didn't want teachers or 24 th
at type of position, correct? Do you recall that? 25 A Not teachers specifically. But, yes, there were --
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3994 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And would it basically be not that the people he was
2 talking about, that there was something wrong with them,
3 but that there were people that there might not -- people
4 who might not have a need for a business networking
5 directory?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Mr. Gordon would also tell salespeople not to lie; is
8 that correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q He would tell them if they would lie, they were
11 fired; is that correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And people were fired for lying; is that correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Walda, W A L D A, Sue, S U E, Mantell, M A N T E L L,
16 was one of them?
17 A I wouldn't know the reason for her termination, but I
18 know he was adamant about people, you know, sticking with
19 their pitch.
20 Q He would tell them that they had to stick with the
21 pitch, or to the sales presentation which he had approved;
22 is that correct?
23 A Yes. 24 Q And he would sometimes say that that was just like 25 IBM which did the same kind of thing with its salespeople,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3995 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 right? Do you recall that?
2 A Yeah.
3 Q Do you recall hearing him say that the people at IBM
4 wanted to make sure that their salespeople at the same
5 time they were selling a computer, weren't promising to
6 deliver a Cadillac along with it? Would he say that?
7 A Yes.
8 Q He wanted to make sure that the sales people didn't
9 say something that would be untrue; is that correct?
10 A Yes.
11
Q Now, you testified that there was a time that you
12 heard Mr. Gordon telling Wendi Springer that the words
13 "assistant" and "associate" would be dropped from titles?
14 A In some cases, yes.
15 Q Now, if I were to tell you that Wendi Springer said,
16 not that "associate" was to be dropped, but "assistant" to
17 be changed to "associate", would that --
18 MR. WHITE: Objection.
19 THE COURT: I didn't hear the end of the
20 questions. Would you want to repeat that, please.
21 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.
22 Q Would your testimony change on that if I were to tell
23 you that Wendi Springer testified that the change was from 24 "assistant" to "associate" as opposed to dropping 25 "associate"?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3996 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 MR. WHITE: Objection.
2 THE COURT: What ground?
3 MR. W
HITE: It is not proper for one witness to
4 ask about the accuracy of another witness' testimony.
5 THE COURT: It is an interesting question. I
6 heard that from time to time. Generally I will agree with
7 you. I will sustain the objection. Not always, but
8 generally. I can think of some occasions where that could
9 be used, but not now.
10 Q As you sit here today, are you certain that what you
11 heard was that assistant and associate were both to be
12 dropped, as opposed to assistant being changed to
13 associate?
14 A I am certain of the one instance where it was done in
15 my presence.
16 Q In one instance?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And was that for consistency, so that --
19 A I don't know the reason at that point.
20 Q Were there instances where attorneys were listed as
21 assistant and changed to associates? Were you aware of
22 that?
23 A Attorneys? 24 Q Yes. 25 A No, I am not aware of that.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3997 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q All right.
2 Certainly, there was no wholesale change through
3 the directory in which all references to assistant or
4 associates were deleted, were there?
5 A No.
6 Q And there are many listings for people as either
7 assistants or associates; is that correct?
8 A If it is pertinent to their title, I would think so.
9 Q The annual budget for Tribute Magazine was
10 approximately $60,000?
11 A There wasn't an established budget per se, but it was
12 an expensive magazine to produce.
13 Q Leaving aside the issue as to whether there was a
14 budget for it, is it fair to say that it cost about
15 60,000 -- excuse me, $600,000 a year to produce it?
16 A I am not sure of ex
actly the figures that it cost to
17 produce right now.
18 Q All right.
19 Yesterday you testified that Tribute was your
20 idea.
21 A Yes.
22 Q Is it your testimony that you simply suggested to
23 Mr. Gordon that there be a glossy magazine that would cost 24 something along the nature of an expensive project, and he 25 simply agreed to it like that?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3998 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A No, no.
2 Q Is it not a fact that he had been thinking for a long
3 time about a publication for members?
4 A I can't -- I can't testify as to what he was
5 thinking.
6 Q Is it also -- are you aware that at the time you were
7 hired Who's Who Worldwide had -- was just going into a
8 much greater point of profitability?
9 A The company seemed to be growing tremendously at that
10 point.
11 Q Are you aware that it is income in the years '90 and
12 '91, was considerably less than the year '92?
13 A I have no knowledge of that.
14 Q Are you aware that one of the reasons that you were
15 hired was to provide benefits for members was because at
16 the point that you were hired Who's Who Worldwide was now
17 doing well enough to expand the benefits that were being
18 offered?
19 A I don't know.
20 Q But you certainly were hired to provide benefits to
21 members; is that correct?
22 A Yes. To help with the marketing of the company.
23 Q At the time that you stopped working for Who's Who 24 Worldwide, at the time of the raid, were there other 25 benefits for members that were in the works?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3999 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A At that point, yes.
2 Q C
an you tell the jury what some of those other
3 benefits were?
4 A I don't remember offhand, but I know I was working on
5 a few other projects.
6 Q Was one of the projects health insurance?
7 A Well, we had inquired about health insurance, yes.
8 Q The problem is that there were different state
9 regulations?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q And something that you wanted to make available to
12 members?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And you were going to do it if you could get over the
15 regulatory problems?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q Were there different issues of Tribute being planned
18 at the time of the raid?
19 A Yes. We were right at the closing of an issue.
20 Q And that one never came out; is that correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q There were other benefits besides health insurance
23 that was in the works being contemplated for the members;
24 is that correct? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4000 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Now, you testified yesterday about a conversation
2 that you had with Mr. Gordon concerning the use of the
3 word nomination; do you recall that?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And specifically you testified they took out a
6 dictionary and he told you that nomination means selected
7 or chosen; is that correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q All right.
10 He was trying to convince you that he was right;
11 is that correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And he didn't tell you that he thought that he was
14 wrong in this, did he?
15 A No.
16 Q He believed, as far as you could tell, that the use
17 of "nomination" in the solicitation letters was
18 appropriate?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Is that correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q All right.
23 Did there come a point in time that he showed you 24 a letter which used the word "nomination" as to him, that 25 had been received from Who's Who in America?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4001 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes.
2 Q I will show you Defendant's Exhibit Z for
3 Identification.
4 (Handed to the witness.)
5 Q Is that the letter?
6 A Yes.
7 Q He showed that to you?
8 A Uh-huh.
9 THE COURT: Is that yes?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes. I am sorry.
11 Q In the conversations you had with him concerning the
12 use of the word nomination, did he tell you that he had
13 heard testimony in the lawsuit involving Who's Who
14 Worldwide and Reed Elsevir Company concerning Marqui's'
15 use of "nomination"?
16 A I don't recall that conversation.
17 Q Do you recall hi
m telling you that he learned --
18 withdrawn.
19 The letter in front of you is the one that
20 nominated Mr. Gordon for --
21 MR. WHITE: Objection.
22 Is Mr. Trabulus going to summarize it for us
23 before it is in evidence? 24 MR. TRABULUS: I will offer it in evidence. 25 THE COURT: Any objection?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4002 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 MR. WHITE: Yes, I object.
2 THE COURT: Can I see it, please?
3 (Handed to the Court.)
4 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, may I ask a few more
5 questions?
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7 Q Did Mr. Gordon tell you that he had learned in the
8 course of that lawsuit that Marquis Who's Who used mailing
9 lists?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And did he tell you that Marquis Who's Who utilized
12 letters which said that people had been nominated?
13 A I believe he did mention that.
14 Q And did he mention -- did he show you this letter --
15 well, the judge has it in front of him -- and give that as
16 an example of a letter that Marquis Who's Who used?
17 A He showed me letters that there were a number of
18 people doing mailings.
19 Q And did he tell you that Marquis Who's Who itself
20 used the word "nomination" in describing the process by
21 which somebody was selected, even though that person might
22 have been selected from a mailing list?
23 A Yes. 24 Q And did he tell you that that was one of his reasons 25 for saying it was okay to do that?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4003 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes.
2 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I would offer that.
3 THE COURT: I assume you are not offering it for
4 the truth?
5 MR. TRABULUS:
No. It goes to Mr. Gordon's state
6 of mind.
7 THE COURT: Any objection?
8 MR. WHITE: Yes, your Honor, I do have an
9 objection.
10 THE COURT: All right. Come up.
11
12 (Whereupon, at this time the following took place
13 at the sidebar.)
14 MR. WHITE: My objection is this, your Honor: If
15 it is not offered for the truth of it and Mr. Gordon's
16 state of mind, I understand that. He is free to elicit
17 evidence bearing on his state of mind.
18 I don't mean to reargue what your Honor has
19 already decided, but the government is ending up here
20 fighting with one hand tied behind its back, because
21 Mr. Trabulus is trying to elicit that Mr. Gordon found out
22 things from the other litigation, found out this stuff.
23 It is a one-way door swinging to his side. He is trying 24 to bring out all these things to show it is okay to show
25 people were nominated although it came from mailing lists,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4004 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 when we have the most definitive pronouncement of all,
2 Judge Jordan's decision saying it is not. It seems to be
3 completely distorting the process. They are only hearing
4 one side of the story about what Mr. Gordon heard.
5 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I most respectfully
6 disagree. Mr. Gordon received that, or indicated he
7 received that in 1989. The issues involved in Magistrate
8 Jordan's decision is far more complicated as to the simple
9 issue as to whether one can say "nomination" with respect
10 to the mailing lists. I don't believe it is a distortion.
11 THE COURT: I don't think it is a distortion at
12 all. I don't believe the government has one hand tied
13 behind their back.
14 The gove
rnment chose to bring this elaborate and
15 expensive prosecution. The government says that these
16 people committed a criminal fraud by saying that people
17 were nominated. That's the guts of the case. That's it.
18 Now, you might have a little Vietnam trip throne
19 in here and there. I am not talking about the other
20 charges, the obstruction, the tax counts. I am talking
21 about the mail fraud. This is it.
22 I could not preclude this from going in. This is
23 evidence of state of mind, that he saw something that 24 another company told him, told him he was nominated when 25 in fact he was not nominated, as you, the government,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4005 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 thinks he should have been nominated.
2 In other words, this is very important evidence.
3 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, again, my position
all
4 along has not been that the defense should be precluded
5 from bringing that in. Again, I don't mean to reargue
6 things. But there is certainly a way that we can simplify
7 Magistrate Jordan's decision to explain to the jury that
8 at some point Mr. Gordon was told, without getting into
9 the legalese, that the company was ordered to do this.
10 THE COURT: Only one problem. That's a civil
11 copyright case. The standards are different. The points
12 of law are different. Everything is different.
13 Not only that, but it is unduly prejudicial in my
14 opinion, because the jury might think because one judge
15 already found this, how could they not do it? So that's
16 why I kept it out.
17 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, can I at least propose
18 this, and maybe -- I don't know if your Honor has an open
19 mind on this or not --
20 THE COURT: I have an open mind
on everything.
21 MR. WHITE: Okay.
22 THE COURT: Including this expensive criminal
23 prosecution. 24 MR. WHITE: What I was going to suggest, and if 25 the defendants again -- I am not disputing their right --
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4006 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 continues to put in evidence like this, is there at least
2 a possibility that we can fashion some sort of instruction
3 to the jury to simplify it --
4 THE COURT: Simplify what?
5 MR. WHITE: The gist of Magistrate Jordan's
6 decision.
7 THE COURT: I am always open to suggestions.
8 MR. WHITE: Even though if they don't tell them
9 it is coming from a federal judge.
10 THE COURT: I am open to suggestions, until the
11 jury comes in with a verdict, and until they are
12 discharged after the verdict. Until then I am open to
13
suggestions, and at any time.
14 MR. WHITE: I will try to come up with a creative
15 one then.
16 THE COURT: I will overrule the objection on this
17 one. And I will instruct the jury as to what this means,
18 if you want me to. It is not for the truth of what is in
19 here, obviously.
20 MR. WHITE: Yes, I would like you to do that,
21 your Honor.
22 THE COURT: All right.
23 MR. TRABULUS: May I take that? 24 THE COURT: I will use it for a minute. 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4007 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 (Whereupon, at this time the following takes
2 place in open court.)
3 THE COURT: Members of the jury, again, I am
4 going to give you a limiting instruction as to this
5 exhibit, Defendant's Exhibit Z for Zebra.
6 By this time you heard me say that some documents
7 are not o
ffered for the truth.
8 Now, what does that mean? It is a very
9 sophisticated doctrine. As a matter of fact, after this
10 case you all ought to start going to law school.
11 It means that whatever is said in here, I don't
12 know, not offered for the truth of what it says. It
13 doesn't matter.
14 It is only offered for the effects, if anything,
15 on the defendant Bruce Gordon who received it, about his
16 state of mind. What would he think? What impressions
17 would he have when he receives this, and that's all. It
18 is not that it is true. It doesn't matter.
19 Defendant's Exhibit Z, for Zebra, in evidence.
20 (Defendant's Exhibit Z received in evidence.)
21 (Handed to the witness.)
22 Q Ms. Benjamin, take a look at Exhibit Z, for Zebra.
23 In the second paragraph it lists the sources, 24 some sources of names for potential biographies; is that
25 correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4008 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes.
2 Q I am going to read it.
3 Names of potential biographies for our reference
4 volume are gathered by an in-house research department
5 from many sources, magazines, newspapers, professional and
6 scholarly journals, and many other publications,
7 professional organization memberships, as well as through
8 nominations by our advisory and nominated boards, and our
9 established biographies.
10 Now, that is everything that the letter says
11 concerning the sources of names; is that correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q It does not reveal that Marquis utilizes mailing
14 lists, does it?
15 A No.
16 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I would like to
17 publish that to the jury.
18 THE COURT: Yes.
19 (Whereupon, the exhibit/exhi
bits were published
20 to the jury.)
21 MR. TRABULUS: While it is being circulated, if I
22 may, I will read the beginning of the letter.
23 December 20th, 1989. Bruce Gordon, UVX 24 Computers, 99 Seaview Boulevard, Port Washington, New York 25 11050.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4009 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Dear Mr. Gordon.
2 You have been nominated as a biographical
3 candidate for the forthcoming 23rd edition of Who's Who in
4 the East.
5 Q Did Mr. Gordon also in discussing this letter tell
6 you that a couple of weeks before he received it he had
7 himself ordered a publication from Marquis?
8 A I don't remember that.
9 Q Now, you had testified to a conversation with Liz
10 Sautter where she mentioned the possibility to you that
11 you might need to use the penthouse; is that correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And had you previously discussed with Ms. Sautter or
14 anyone else there the circumstances under which you or
15 other people at Who's Who Worldwide might be able to use
16 the penthouse?
17 A No. It was not a discussion.
18 Q When she said this to you, did she indicate to you
19 that it might be for a member function that you might have
20 been working on?
21 A She didn't indicate it at that time. But there
22 had -- we did have cocktail parties there.
23 Q And you yourself had organized those cocktail 24 parties? 25 A That's correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4010 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q You had the responsibility for doing that?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Is that correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And these were cocktail parties for members; is that
6 correct?
7 A Yes.
8 Q For networking?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And do you recall approximately when the first one
11 was?
12 A It was in '94. I am very poor with dates, I
13 apologize.
14 Q And the second time was in the wintertime because of
15 bad weather?
16 A Right.
17 Q And the second one was not very well as attended as
18 the first?
19 A Very bad weather.
20 Q Do you recall how many members came to the first one?
21 A I would say about 50.
22 Q To the second one with the bad weather?
23 A About half that amount. 24 Q Now, are you familiar with something known as the 25 Hyde Agency?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4011 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes.
2 Q They are located in San Francisco?
3 A Uh-huh.
4 THE COURT: Yes?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes. I am sorry.
6 Q Were the
y involved in a networking project with
7 members that you were trying to set up?
8 A Yes. They were trying to become involved to solicit
9 membership from China, or Chinese members, I should say.
10 Q And was the Hyde Agency involved in arranging for
11 Chinese business people to visit the United States on
12 business visas to have business deals?
13 A That was my understanding.
14 Q And were you trying -- withdrawn.
15 Did Mr. Gordon ask you the try to arrange for
16 those people either to become members or meet members?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And that was part of what was being done by way of a
19 service to existing members of Who's Who to facilitate
20 possible trade with this emerging new market?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Is that correct?
23 I take it the Hyde Agency wasn't very effective 24 in doing what it was doing? 25 A No, not at all.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4012 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q But certainly, Who's Who Worldwide was trying
2 sincerely to do that?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Were you aware that thousands of CD-ROMs were sold to
5 members?
6 A I don't know the quantity, but I know a lot.
7 Q Are you aware of any members complaining after they
8 received the CD-ROM that it was not good?
9 A I wasn't aware of it.
10 Q Were you aware that Who's Who Worldwide and Sterling
11 sometimes gave refunds to customers?
12 A Yes.
13 Q To members?
14 What was your understanding as to what the
15 refunds policy was?
16 A If a member didn't want membership or was unhappy for
17 any reason, a refund was issued pretty immediately.
18 Q That was the general policy; is that correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Is that correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And are you aware in some instances there might have
23 been a slip up and it wasn't done? 24 A No. 25 Q And as far as you were aware that was what was
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4013 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 supposed to be done; is that correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Mr. Gordon himself didn't sit on top of every staff
4 members who was involved in effecting the rep funds, did
5 he?
6 A No.
7 Q If a mistake was made, you wouldn't regard that as
8 Mr. Gordon's, would you?
9 A No.
10 Q Are you familiar with the term "buyer's remorse"?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And that would be when someone decided to buy
13 something or join something, and then changed their mind?
14 A Yes.
15 Q In the case of Who's Who Worldwide was there -- do
16 you know what the percentage of buyer's remorse, peopl
e
17 who would join and right away change their mind was?
18 MR. WHITE: Objection.
19 THE COURT: Overruled.
20 A I wouldn't really have knowledge of the amount, but I
21 wouldn't think it was too many.
22 Q Was there a certain percentage of -- withdrawn.
23 Do you know what the term charge backs is, in 24 connection with credit cards? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4014 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Q If somebody purchased a membership and were charged
2 for the membership through a credit card, and then changed
3 their mind, and they would be given a refund, there would
4 be a charge back?
5 A Right.
6 Q And would it -- would the number of somewhere in the
7 range of six or eight percent be the amount of charge
8 backs that you were aware of?
9 A I wouldn't know that, I am sorry.
10 Q You said you didn't know it was -- you didn't think
11 it was too much, right?
12 A I didn't think it was a high percentage.
13 Q Was it your understanding that when the penthouse was
14 first leased, it was to be used for various business
15 purposes?
16 A Yes.
17 MR. WHITE: Objection. If we can have a
18 foundation for what her understanding is before she can
19 answer?
20 THE COURT: Overruled.
21 Q Who told you that?
22 A Mr. Gordon.
23 Q And what were some of the things that he explained 24 that he was planning to do with it? 25 A He wanted the cocktail parties, and the social
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4015 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 mixers, that was important. And making it available to
2 members, especially with our Russian people.
3 Q Did you yourself ever speak to anybo
dy, either the
4 Russian people themselves, or representatives of the
5 Russian people to inform them that Russian members would
6 stay at the penthouse if they wished to?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Who did you speak to specifically?
9 A Dimitri, and I can't remember --
10 Q Michael?
11 A Michael.
12 Q Who were Dimitri and Michael?
13 A They were the representative -- they were from
14 Itar-Tass, the Russian News Agency, and they represented
15 us in the Russian community.
16 Q Through them did Who's Who Worldwide actually have an
17 office in Moscow?
18 A That they manned, yes.
19 Q And you told Dimitri and Michael that Russian members
20 could, if they wanted to, stay in the penthouse when they
21 came to the United States?
22 A It was made available for them, yes.
23 Q Do you know if that actually happened? 24 A I don't know if it did
, but I doubt it. 25 Q If it didn't it wasn't because Who's Who Worldwide
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4016 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 didn't offer, correct?
2 A Correct.
3 MR. TRABULUS: Bear with me a moment, your
4 Honor.
5 THE COURT: Yes.
6 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
7 proceedings.)
8 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, if I may review my
9 notes for a moment?
10 THE COURT: Yes.
11 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you.
12 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
13 proceedings.)
14 Q Mr. Gordon also told you he had plans to open up
15 offices in Paris and London? Do you recall that?
16 A Yes, that he did want to open up in Europe, yes.
17 Q Now, in terms of Mr. Gordon's staying at the
18 penthouse, I think you testified that there were times
19 when you were to
ld he could be reached there?
20 A Uh-huh.
21 Q When he was working in the city?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Is that right? 24 A Yes. 25 Q All right.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4017 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Did he spend -- withdrawn.
2 You spent most of your time at the Long Island
3 location; is that correct? Lake Success?
4 A It depends on the time of the month mostly. We -- if
5 we were working on a deadline of an issue, I would be back
6 and forth.
7 Q On the Tribute Magazine?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And that's -- would Mr. Gordon be working with you on
10 the deadline issue as well?
11 A Sometimes, yes, and sometimes no.
12 Q Is that correct that the penthouse was leased in the
13 Spring of 1994?
14 A I don't know when the actual lease was signed.
15 Q Is it correct that there w
ere periods after that when
16 Mr. Gordon would be only at the Sterling location in the
17 City maybe once every two weeks or once a week?
18 A I don't recall how often, but, you know, he would
19 have to go back and forth.
20 Q Were there days he would go back and forth, leaving
21 to Long Island, going to the City and coming back to Long
22 Island?
23 A Yes. 24 Q And it is not -- one can't assume that everyday he 25 was in the City at Sterling, he was staying over in
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4018 Benjamin-cross/Trabulus
1 Manhattan, can we?
2 A I wouldn't know that.
3 Q In fact, as you sit there, you yourself don't know
4 how many nights, if any, Mr. Gordon actually spent at the
5 penthouse, do you?
6 A No.
7 MR. TRABULUS: I have no further questions.
8
9 CROSS-EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. SCHOER:
11 Q Good afternoon.
12 A Hi.
13 Q Ms. Benjamin, you didn't have any financial interest
14 in this business, did you?
15 A Other than my paycheck, no.
16 Q Other than your paycheck, right?
17 A Right.
18 Q And you didn't do anything in the course of your
19 employment to deceive people, did you?
20 A No.
21 Q You didn't believe that this business didn't provide
22 a product to the members, did you?
23 A No. 24 Q You had no ownership interest in the business, right? 25 A None.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4019 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 Q Is that right?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And so, you had no reason to deceive anyone; isn't
4 that correct?
5 A Correct.
6 Q Now, you were the person who first started these
7 Tribute Magazines; isn't that corr
ect?
8 A Yes.
9 MR. SCHOER: Do we have that first Tribute?
10 MR. TRABULUS: Yes, we do.
11 (Mr. Schoer confers with Mr. Trabulus.)
12 Q I will show you what is marked as Defendant's
13 Gordon-H for Identification.
14 Do you recognize that?
15 (Handed to the witness.)
16 A Yes, I do.
17 Q And what is that?
18 A That's the first issue of Tribute.
19 Q The first issue of Tribute?
20 A Yes.
21 Q All right.
22 You were involved in preparing that first issue
23 of Tribute? 24 A Yes, I was. 25 Q And in fact, you are listed as the editor of the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4020 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 document; is that correct?
2 A Uh-huh.
3 THE COURT: Yes?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes.
5 MR. SCHOER: At this time I will offer H.
6 THE COURT: Any objectio
n?
7 MR. WHITE: No, your Honor.
8 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit H for How in
9 evidence.
10 (Defendant's Exhibit H received in evidence.)
11 Q I am going to show you what is already in evidence as
12 Defendant's Exhibit C, D, G and F.
13 (Handed to the witness.)
14 Q Do you recognize those documents?
15 A Yes, I do.
16 Q Are those the other Tribute Magazines that were
17 published?
18 A Yes, they are.
19 Q Is it fair to say that you were intimately involved
20 in preparing those magazines?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Is that correct?
23 A Yes. 24 Q You are pretty proud of them? 25 A Yes, I am.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4021 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 Q And the things contained in the magazine, as far as
2 you knew, they were all truthful; isn't that correct,
3 Ms. B
enjamin?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And you didn't publish this magazine with any intent
6 to deceive anyone, did you?
7 A No.
8 Q All right.
9 With any of your -- or any of the members?
10 A No.
11 Q Okay.
12 Let's talk a little bit about how the business
13 was done.
14 A All right.
15 Q Would you say Mr. Gordon was a very hands-on CEO?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And most of the decisions at Who's Who Worldwide were
18 decisions that were either made by Mr. Gordon, or had to
19 be approved by Mr. Gordon; is that right?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And that would be down to the minutest detail as to
22 how to sort the cards?
23 A Yes. 24 Q How many piles to put them in, and which code to put 25 in which pile; is that right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4022 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 A
Yes.
2 Q Is it fair to say also that Mr. Gordon tried to keep
3 the various departments in Who's Who separate?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And one department didn't really -- wasn't really
6 suppose to know -- supposed to know what the other
7 department was doing?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And in fact, wasn't supposed to know much of anything
10 that the other department was doing, unless Mr. Gordon
11 wanted them to know?
12 A That's right.
13 Q And you were in the public affairs department, is
14 that fair to call it that?
15 A I don't know what the real title was.
16 Q Sometimes it is called public affairs?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Sometimes it is called communications?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Right?
21 A Right.
22 Q Sometimes it is called the publishing department?
23 A Uh-huh. 24 Q Right? 25 Any other names?
HARRY RAPA
PORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4023 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 A I don't know.
2 Q Okay.
3 And there was a department called administration?
4 A That's right.
5 Q Right?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q And then there was the sales department, right?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And is it fair -- were there any other departments
10 that you can think of?
11 A Well, M I S, I would say would be separate.
12 Q And that was the computer person?
13 A Uh-huh.
14 Q All right.
15 A And bookkeeping, the controller's office would be
16 separate.
17 Q In the beginning when you first arrived there, there
18 was no controller; isn't that right?
19 A Right.
20 Q And that was all part of administration, because Liz
21 Sautter, that was her responsibilities; is that correct?
22 A That's right.
23 Q In fact, before you
arrived there, Liz Sautter had 24 the responsibility of the mailing lists that you talked 25 about?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4024 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 A Yes. Even for some of the time when I first came,
2 when I first arrived there.
3 Q All right.
4 Is it fair to say that this company when you
5 first arrived, and over the period of time that you worked
6 there was expanding?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And not only expanding in the number of members, but
9 expanding with respect to what was being offered to the
10 members?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And it was growing; is that fair to say?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And it was your intent, and the intent of the people
15 who worked there to make the product better on a daily
16 basis; is that correct?
17 A Yes, very true.
18 Q You weren't satisfied wit
h leaving things stagnant,
19 you were trying to change things and making things better?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And that's because you believed in the business; is
22 that correct?
23 A Yes. 24 Q And you believed in the product; is that right? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4025 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 Q And you didn't believe, again, that the product was
2 deceiving anyone?
3 A No.
4 Q In any way, right?
5 A No.
6 Q Now, in your department there were several people?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Ms. Konopka?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Ms. Colletti?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Ms. Swendseid?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Anyone else?
15 A There were people who were there that had left.
16 Q In and out?
17 A Yes.
18 Q That was the core of your department; is that right?
19 A Y
es.
20 Q And we talked about administration, and that was
21 Ms. Sautter; is that correct?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And how many people worked for Ms. Sautter? Do you 24 remember? 25 A Off the top of my head, I think it was eight.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4026 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 Q All right.
2 It wasn't always the same people?
3 A No.
4 Q Over the period of time when you were there, Wendi
5 Springer was there at least, right?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Do you remember the names of any of the other people
8 working in administration?
9 A Kelly. I don't remember her last name. Christina,
10 Doreen. Off the top of my head that's about it.
11 Q Okay.
12 And then there were people in the sales
13 department; is that right?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And there were group leaders in the sales dep
artment
16 and the actual people who made the telephone calls?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Isn't that right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q All right.
21 Did your office open mail?
22 A My office?
23 Q Yes. 24 A No. 25 Q All the mail was opened by the administration office,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4027 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 is that correct, people in administration?
2 A Correct.
3 Q And your office wasn't even allowed to open mail;
4 isn't that so?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q And the salespeople weren't allowed to open mail;
7 isn't that so?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q And all the mail that was sent, at least during the
10 time you were there, was sent from your supervision, under
11 your office, is that fair to say? Except for the
12 invoices?
13 A You mean the solicitation
letters or anything like
14 that?
15 Q Any other mails as well; is that right?
16 A Yes.
17 Q The invoices were sent from administration; is that
18 correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And other than the invoice mailings, the mailings
21 came from your office; isn't that correct?
22 A The initial invoice, yes. What was referred to as
23 the B balance, that was partially produced out of my 24 office. 25 Q Okay.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4028 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 No mailings were done by the people in the sales
2 department, were there?
3 A Not unless they wrote a personal letter of some sort.
4 Q And as far as you know that solicitation letter --
5 well, all those solicitation letters, they were in the
6 administration's office in a binder; is that correct?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Did you
know anything about a rule that the
9 salespeople weren't allowed in the administration office?
10 A Yes.
11 Q So, the salespeople weren't even allowed to go in
12 there to even look at the binder, even if they had the
13 desire to look at the binder; is that correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And are you aware that the salespeople never even saw
16 any of the solicitation letters?
17 A I would think that's correct.
18 Q And that was done for whatever reason, right? The
19 salespeople didn't know what was being mailed?
20 A No, they didn't, no.
21 Q Did you ever hear the term black door with respect to
22 the administration office, that people weren't allowed in
23 there to cross the black door? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4029 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 Now, your office was over
by some of the sales
2 area; isn't that correct?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And at times you could hear what was going on in the
5 sales room?
6 A Yes.
7 Q At times in the sales room that was near your office,
8 there was basically two different sales rooms, right?
9 A Yes. In the Lake Success office.
10 Q I am talking about the Lake Success office.
11 In the sales room that was near your office, did
12 you ever hear sales meetings going on?
13 A Sales meetings going on.
14 Q Sure.
15 A Most sales meetings were held in Mr. Gordon's
16 office.
17 Q Did you ever hear of meetings in that room -- it was
18 a big open room?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Where people sat and made telephone calls?
21 A It was not really a big open room. There were
22 dividers -- there were private cubbies.
23 Q Did you ever hear any sales meetings in that room at
24 all? 25 A I heard Mr. Gordon address the group on occasion.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4030 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 Q On the occasions you heard Mr. Gordon address the
2 group, he told them to follow the pitch, right?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Follow the presentation?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And he told them not to lie; isn't that right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And he told them not to make any misrepresentations;
9 isn't that right?
10 A Yes.
11 Q At times did you hear Tara give similar talks to
12 people?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And Tara would tell people to follow the pitch,
15 right?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And follow the presentation, correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Verbatim, right?
20 A That's what they were told.
21 Q And she told them not to say anything that they
22 didn't know, right?
23 A Well, I mean following the pitch was just staying 24 with what the facts are. 25 Q Okay.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4031 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 Insofar as what you knew, everything that was
2 being said to members was the facts, right?
3 A Yeah.
4 Q You indicated that you were the director of
5 marketing; is that right?
6 A Uh-huh.
7 Q Did you have other titles at Who's Who Worldwide?
8 A Yes, I believe so.
9 Q Did there come a time that you had the title vice
10 president?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Okay.
13 And that came, that came after or around the time
14 of a dinner meeting at the penthouse; is that right?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And at that dinner meeting Mr. Gordon sort of made an
17 announcement that now you were going to be the vice
18 president of the corporation;
isn't that so?
19 A Of the company, not the corporation.
20 Q Of the company?
21 A Yes.
22 Q You are right.
23 And you understood that to mean that you were 24 basically going to be second in command after Mr. Gordon 25 from that point on?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4032 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 A Yes.
2 Q Is that right?
3 A I guess. I don't know what it really meant.
4 Q Okay.
5 And is it fair to say that although you called
6 Liz Sautter the office manager, she was a lot more than
7 that? She made decisions on her own; is that right?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And she ran the administration office; isn't that so,
10 ma'am?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And the administration office was a very important
13 part of what was going on --
14 A Yes.
15 Q At Who's Who Worldwide?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Now, in addition to being vice president and director
18 of marketing, at times you were called the director of
19 membership; isn't that right?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And that sort of implies that you were in charge of
22 all the membership; isn't that so?
23 A Well, it was more the benefits, the membership 24 benefits. 25 Q All right.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4033 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 Now, as far as that separation that Mr. Gordon
2 imposed between the different departments -- among the
3 different departments, certain things were locked up; is
4 that right?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And only a few people even had keys to the office.
7 Isn't that so?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And do you remember who that was who had keys to the
10 office?
11 A Maria -- Maria Gaspar and Liz.
12 Q And Liz?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And you didn't have keys to the office?
15 A No.
16 Q You were second in command and you couldn't even get
17 into that office unless somebody let you in?
18 A That is correct.
19 Q Now, in addition to keys to the office, I believe you
20 testified that at times you would see people in the
21 conference room sorting the cards?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And at times you were even in the conference room 24 while people were sorting the cards; is that right? 25 A Uh-huh.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4034 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 Q And after the people sorted the cards -- let me ask
2 you this: When people sorted the cards, did they look at
3 them, the cards themselves?
4 A I don't think so.
5 They had to look and sort them by code.
6 Q Did they look at -- doing
whether anyone looked
7 through those cards to see whether people were qualified
8 at all?
9 A I think they perused them but not thoroughly.
10 Q Okay.
11 And that's because there were going to be other
12 levels of selection coming in the process?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Isn't that so?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Fine.
17 At least initially that was the first
18 selection -- I shouldn't say that.
19 Initially the first level of selection was the
20 mailing lists that you were involved in; isn't that so?
21 A Yes.
22 Q You tried to key the mailing lists to executives; is
23 that right? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Management?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4035 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 A Yes.
2 Q Upper management?
3 A Right.
4 Q So that would be a first level of selection; isn't
5 that fair to say?
6 A Right, uh-huh.
7 Q And then when the cards came in, there would be this
8 sorting process, and they would be perused, as you say,
9 and that would be a sort of a second level of selection;
10 isn't that right?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And if someone was obviously unqualified that card
13 would be pulled out; isn't that right?
14 A Well, that I don't know.
15 Q Well, there were times you were in the room -- were
16 you there in a supervisory capacity?
17 A No. Sometimes just to see if mail had come in or
18 something.
19 Q Oh.
20 After those cards were sorted out, they were
21 taken out of the conference room and brought to
22 administration; isn't that right?
23 A Yes. 24 Q And they were locked up in administration; do you 25 remember that?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4036 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 A Yes.
2 Q And then they were distributed pursuant to
3 Mr. Gordon's direction at some point?
4 A Correct.
5 Q All right.
6 The cards you are talking about, you called them
7 business reply cards?
8 A Yes.
9 Q When you were there at Who's Who Worldwide, is that
10 what they were called?
11 A In the printing end of it they were called BRCs.
12 Q Okay.
13 A What do you mean --
14 Q Did you ever call them anything other than BRCs?
15 A I am thinking of the technical term. I know they
16 were just referred to as cards.
17 Q You didn't call them lead cards, did you?
18 A Well, I did.
19 Q You did?
20 A Yes.
21 Q At the time you were working there, they were called
22 lead cards?
23 A Yes. 24 Q And that was a card that was sent back by a potential
2
5 member; isn't that so?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4037 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 A Yes.
2 Q And when those cards went out to the member, did they
3 have stamps on them?
4 A No.
5 Q So, a member had to fill out a card, put a stamp on
6 it and mail it back to Who's Who Worldwide?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q And I think that you indicated that the codes at the
9 bottom of the card were used to track various information,
10 the response to a particular mailing listed, the response
11 to a particular letter. Did you track those responses?
12 A No.
13 Q As far as you understood Mr. Gordon tracked those
14 responses?
15 A Liz did the counts and gave it to Mr. Gordon.
16 Q Okay.
17 So, Liz and Mr. Gordon together did that; is that
18 correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And you don't know how m
any people applied for
21 membership on a monthly basis, do you?
22 A No.
23 Q All right. 24 And the only way you would know that is by what 25 you were told by Mr. Gordon and by Liz; isn't that right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4038 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 A Yes.
2 Q And if you had that conversation as to how many
3 people applied, and the only way someone in the company
4 would know if they -- someone told that to Mr. Gordon or
5 Liz, because they were the ones who tracked that; isn't
6 that right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And also with respect to how many people actually
9 joined the membership, that, too, was tracked only by
10 Mr. Gordon and Liz, the numbers, right?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And the only way -- if you were an employee, the only
13 way you would know how many people were joining the
14 membership on a monthly basis, is if you were told that by
15 Mr. Gordon or Liz; is that right?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And as an employee you wouldn't have any reason to
18 question what they were telling you, would you?
19 A As far as --
20 Q As far as the numbers, as to how many people sent in
21 cards, and how many people were accepted, how many people
22 were joined? You wouldn't have any reason to question
23 those numbers, would you? 24 A No. 25 Q Okay.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4039 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 You indicated that when people joined they
2 obtained a packet?
3 A Uh-huh.
4 Q I believe you called it a membership packet?
5 A Uh-huh.
6 Q Is that right?
7 A Uh-huh.
8 Q Now, do you remember what was contained in that
9 membership packet?
10 A That wa
s handled in administration. But from what I
11 recollect, it was a copy of their invoice, and any
12 pertinent information. The camera-ready art slip was put
13 in there. And we had some member benefit briefings that
14 went in there as well.
15 Q When you say briefings, what do you mean?
16 A There could have been different cards or different
17 brochures at different times.
18 Q Okay.
19 Let me show you what is previously marked as
20 Defendant's Exhibit U and Defendant's Exhibit K for
21 Identification.
22 (Handed to the witness.)
23 Q I will ask you, first of all with respect to 24 Defendant's Exhibit U, is that the kind of letter that was 25 sent at that time in a membership packet?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4040 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 A Yes.
2 MR. SCHOER: Your Honor, at this time I would
3 offer Defendant's Exhibit U in evidence.
4 THE COURT: Any objection?
5 MR. WHITE: I will just have to look at it.
6 (Document handed to Mr. White.)
7 THE COURT: Do you have a sheet which shows how
8 to mark the exhibits?
9 MR. SCHOER: Yes, AA is next.
10 THE COURT: Yes, and then AB.
11 MR. SCHOER: Yes, AB, and AC.
12 THE COURT: All right.
13 MR. WHITE: No objection, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit U for Uncle, in
15 evidence.
16 (Defendant's Exhibit U received in evidence.)
17 Q Let me show you Defendant's Exhibit K, again for
18 identification.
19 (Handed to the witness.)
20 Q Is this one of those -- what did you call them?
21 A Like a brochure.
22 Q A brochure, but you used a different term. I am
23 trying to remember what you said. 24 Is that the brochure that was sent at times? 25 A Ye
s.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4041 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 Q Okay.
2 MR. SCHOER: Your Honor, I would offer
3 Defendant's Exhibit K.
4 THE COURT: Any objection?
5 MR. WHITE: I will have to take a look at that,
6 too. I haven't seen it, your Honor.
7 (Document handed to Mr. White.)
8 THE COURT: Meanwhile, would you like to pick up
9 that exhibit on the jury rail?
10 MR. SCHOER: Yes, Judge.
11 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Your Honor, while Mr. White is
12 looking at that, may we approach for a moment?
13 THE COURT: Not now.
14 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I have no objection.
15 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit K for King in
16 evidence.
17 (Defendant's Exhibit K received in evidence.)
18 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we will recess
19 for lunch. Please do not discuss the case, and keep an
20 open mind. We will recess until 1:30.
21 Have a nice lunch.
22 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the
23 courtroom.) 24 THE COURT: Yes, Mr. Wallenstein. 25 MR. WALLENSTEIN: My client received an emergency
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4042 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 phone call about 15 minutes ago. His mother passed away
2 this morning.
3 THE COURT: I am sorry to hear that.
4 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Therefore he can't be here
5 tomorrow and would like the rest of the day.
6 I would ask if Mr. White intends to redirect this
7 witness with respect to anything I crossed on, and if he
8 does, I would ask he do that immediately after the lunch
9 break and Mr. Reffsin be then excused until Tuesday.
10 THE COURT: I have no objection to doing that.
11 Is there going to be any evidence involving
12 Mr. Reffsi
n from now until Tuesday?
13 MR. WALLENSTEIN: That's why I asked about
14 Ms. Benjamin, because the next witness as far as I
15 understand has nothing to do with Mr. Reffsin.
16 MR. WHITE: I don't suspect Mr. Wattstein will
17 have anything to do with Mr. Reffsin. The only hitch in
18 that plan, is depending on how long Ms. Benjamin takes,
19 there was the possibility that we would interrupt
20 Mr. Wattstein's testimony tomorrow afternoon for other
21 customers, who I also don't have anything to do with
22 Mr. Reffsin. But I wanted to make that clear.
23 THE COURT: Do you want to come up, Mr. Reffsin. 24 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Particularly since I will not 25 be here tomorrow either.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4043 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 THE COURT: First of all, Mr. Reffsin, let me
2 offer my condolences.
3 TH
E DEFENDANT REFFSIN: Thank you, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: We will certainly excuse you. You
5 will be able to come back on Tuesday?
6 THE DEFENDANT REFFSIN: I think so, your Honor.
7 THE COURT: Do you consent that we go ahead with
8 the trial in your absence?
9 THE DEFENDANT REFFSIN: As long as the Debra
10 Benjamin situation is resolved, which is not a great
11 issue, but it is an issue.
12 THE COURT: That will definitely be resolved
13 until after 1:30. Would you be able to stay if that is
14 resolved?
15 THE DEFENDANT REFFSIN: Yes. My brother is
16 taking care of the arrangements at that time. And I want
17 to get there as well.
18 THE COURT: If it is resolved, you will stay
19 until that time?
20 THE DEFENDANT REFFSIN: Yes.
21 THE COURT: Do you agree the trial to continue in
22 your absence, as long as nothing comes in with respect to
23 any of the counts against you? 24 THE DEFENDANT REFFSIN: Yes. 25 THE COURT: If you want, you can say I want this
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4044 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 trial to wait until I come back on Tuesday, if you do, I
2 will have to do that.
3 THE DEFENDANT REFFSIN: I don't want the other
4 people to go through that. They are as anxious to get
5 this over as I am.
6 THE COURT: You know you have the right to say
7 put this over and I will have to do it.
8 THE DEFENDANT REFFSIN: Yes.
9 THE COURT: We already discussed the fact that
10 Mr. Wallenstein will not be here tomorrow.
11 THE DEFENDANT REFFSIN: Yes.
12 THE COURT: Mr. Geduldig will continue to
13 represent you in your absence; is that correct,
14 Mr. Geduldig?
15 MR. GEDULDIG: Yes.
16 I would say that it might be adv
isable since both
17 Mr. Wallenstein and Mr. Reffsin not are going to be here,
18 the jury may see both gone for a couple of days, you might
19 advise the jury that they are both not here, and it has to
20 do with personal matters?
21 THE COURT: I will certainly do that, if you
22 would like me to do that.
23 MR. WALLENSTEIN: I think it is appropriate. It 24 is only for a Friday afternoon session. You can handle it 25 any way you wish.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4045 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 THE COURT: That you will be gone this afternoon
2 as well?
3 THE DEFENDANT REFFSIN: Yes. As soon as the
4 situation with Ms. Benjamin is completed.
5 THE COURT: I will give a curative charge to the
6 jury.
7 THE DEFENDANT REFFSIN: Thank you.
8 THE COURT: Again, accept my condolences.
9 THE DEFENDANT R
EFFSIN: Thank you.
10 THE COURT: We will recess until 1:30.
11 (Luncheon Recess.)
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4046 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N
2
3 THE CLERK: Jury entering.
4 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the
5 courtroom.)
6
7 D E B R A B E N J A M I N ,
8 called as a witness, having been previously
9 duly sworn, was examined and testified as
10 follows:
11
12 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the
13 jury.
14 I have a few announcements to make.
15 Firstly, sometime this afternoon Martin Reffsin 16 is going to leave. He is leaving because of a personal
17 matter of an em
ergency nature. I have consented that he
18 leave. He has consented that we continue the trial in his
19 absence. No inference is to be made of any kind by the
20 fact that he will not be here until Tuesday. It is a
21 matter of extreme personal emergency.
22 During his absence there will be no evidence
23 adduced as to any count involving Martin Reffsin. 24 Also, for those who are interested in next week's 25 assignment, we will be working on Friday, from 1:30 to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4047 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 5:30 next Friday. We will be working tomorrow and next
2 Friday, which is the 20th. How time does pass.
3 All right.
4 And during that time Mr. Wallenstein will be not
5 here this afternoon also --
6 MR. WALLENSTEIN: I will be here today, not
7 tomorrow.
8 THE COURT: I am sorry, he will be
here today.
9 But tomorrow afternoon I have excused Mr. Wallenstein who
10 also has a matter of some urgency. And no inference is to
11 be made whatsoever by the fact that they are not here.
12 You may proceed.
13 MR. SCHOER: It was my understanding to
14 accommodate Mr. Reffsin, Mr. White will redirect.
15 MR. WHITE: I have nothing on the subject.
16 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Then, your Honor, I will ask
17 that Mr. Reffsin be permitted to leave.
18 THE COURT: Mr. Reffsin, you may leave. And we
19 will see you on Tuesday.
20 (Whereupon the defendant Reffsin leaves the
21 courtroom.)
22
23 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4048 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)
2 BY MR. SCHOER:
3 Q Good afternoon.
4 I think when we broke I had shown you
5 Defend
ant's Exhibit U and K, both in evidence, and I just
6 wanted to ask you, those documents were documents that
7 were used when you first got there and probably for some
8 time before you were at Who's Who Worldwide; is that fair
9 to say?
10 A I believe I created this letter originally.
11 Q Okay.
12 A I am not 100 percent sure, but I believe so.
13 Q In any event, there came a time that a similar letter
14 went out over your signature?
15 A Uh-huh.
16 Q Is that fair?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And let me show you what I have marked as Defendant's
19 Exhibit AB, and I will ask you -- for identification. And
20 I will ask you whether are not that is the letter that
21 went out over your signature as part of the membership
22 packet.
23 (Handed to the witness.) 24 A Yes. 25 MR. SCHOER: At this time, your Honor, I will
HARRY RAPA
PORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4049 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 offer Defendant's Exhibit AB.
2 Did you want to see it?
3 MR. WHITE: Yes, I needed to take a look at what
4 it is.
5 (Document handed to Mr. White.)
6 THE COURT: What is that, Mr. Schoer?
7 MR. SCHOER: It is a letter to the members when
8 they first became members, which is part of the membership
9 packet.
10 THE COURT: Is there a date on that letter?
11 MR. SCHOER: I don't believe so, your Honor.
12 MR. WHITE: No objection.
13 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit AB, Abel Baker,
14 in evidence.
15 (Defendant's Exhibit AB received in evidence.)
16 MR. SCHOER: I gave Mr. White two other exhibits
17 that he is looking at now, before I show it to the
18 witness.
19 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
20 proceedings.)
21 Q I will
show you Ms. Benjamin, what I have marked as
22 Defendant's Exhibit AE and AA, double A, for
23 Identification. 24 (Handed to the witness.) 25 Q Are those the kind of documents that would have been
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4050 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 sent with Defendant's Exhibit AB, the letter we were just
2 talking about?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And one of those is a brochure setting forth the
5 benefits, sort of a color brochure; is that right?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And the other one is a written sheet with, again, the
8 benefits?
9 A Yes.
10 MR. SCHOER: Your Honor, I would offer those two
11 exhibits Defendant's Exhibit AE and AA.
12 MR. WHITE: No objection.
13 THE COURT: All right.
14 Defendant's Exhibit AA, Abel Abel, and AE, Abel
15 Easy, in evidence.
16 (Defendant's Exhibit AA r
eceived in evidence.)
17 (Defendant's Exhibit AE received in evidence.)
18 MR. SCHOER: May I publish to the jury
19 Defendant's Exhibit U, Defendant's Exhibit K, Defendant's
20 Exhibit AE and Defendant's Exhibit AB at this time?
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 MR. SCHOER: Thank you.
23 (Whereupon, the exhibit/exhibits were published 24 to the jury.) 25 Q Defendant's Exhibit AA, did that change from time to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4051 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 time?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Because in that exhibit there is a reference to a
4 conference; isn't that so?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And that's the Hilton Head conference that is
7 referred to in that exhibit; is that right?
8 A Yes, that's correct.
9 Q And obviously before the Hilton Head conference was
10 planned, that document would have been similar
ly, but not
11 exactly the same?
12 A Yes.
13 Q As the one that went out to people?
14 A Right.
15 Q And after the Hilton Head had been cancelled, again,
16 the document would have been similar?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And not exactly the same, right?
19 A Right.
20 Q Okay.
21 Now, I think just to clarify this, you indicated
22 that those documents were sent with the invoice; is that
23 right? 24 A That is correct. 25 Q And they were sent by the administration office?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4052 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 A That's correct.
2 Q As far as you know they were not mailed by the
3 salespeople in any way?
4 A No, not that I know.
5 Q All right.
6 You talked about mailing lists, right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And had you used mailing lists before in you
r other
9 jobs?
10 A No.
11 Q Okay.
12 By the way, I don't think you told us, what did
13 you do before you worked for Who's Who Worldwide?
14 A I had been a marketing director with Con Air
15 Corporation for a number of years. And also event planner
16 with Steven Scott.
17 Q And when you say you worked for Con Air, how many
18 years did you work for Con Air?
19 A Actually it was four, and I did a lot of consulting
20 fork for them through the years.
21 Q What was your responsibilities at Con Air?
22 A Written materials, advertising, commercials.
23 Q Do you have an educational background in marketing? 24 A Yes. 25 Q What type of degree do you have?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4053 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 A Bachelors.
2 Q Is that in marketing and advertising?
3 A Yes, m
arketing communications.
4 THE COURT: Ms. Benjamin, you have to wait until
5 the question is over before you answer.
6 THE WITNESS: I am sorry.
7 Q I am sorry, I don't talk fast.
8 It is in marketing communications your degree?
9 A That's right.
10 Q You took courses in advertising when you were in
11 college?
12 A Yes, and throughout the years.
13 Q Now, in those other jobs, Steven Scott and Con Air,
14 did you use mailing lists at all?
15 A No.
16 Q When you came to Who's Who Worldwide, that's really
17 the first time you were using mailing lists; is that
18 right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Did someone train you with respect to how to use the
21 mailing lists?
22 A Mr. Gordon.
23 Q I think you indicated that you tried to be very 24 specific with respect to the type of person on the mailing 25 list that you would try to get
an address for; is that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4054 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 right?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And you were familiar with the mailing lists, to the
4 extent that at times mailing lists were not accurate;
5 right?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Did you know that people received letters addressed
8 to Mr. Library from the Who's Who Worldwide mailing list?
9 A We found that out. They would come back.
10 Q Come back in the mail?
11 A Sometimes they would come back in the mail as
12 addressee unknown, or they would get faxed back with nasty
13 comments.
14 Q Sometimes people got letters addressed to Mr. or
15 Ms. Ass, A S S?
16 A Yes.
17 Q You remember that?
18 A Yes.
19 Q When that happened you weren't very happy, right?
20 A No.
21 Q And you contacted the mailing list?
22 A When there was a high rate of that you get in touch
23 with the list broker. 24 Q In fact, in the order for purpose, I don't know if it 25 was the purchase order, or the invoice you received from
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4055 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 the list brokers, it said you were not going to pay for
2 those kinds of addresses; isn't that so?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And as far as you knew it was sort of standard for
5 anyone who rented mailing lists?
6 A Yes.
7 Q That there would be some addresses which just were
8 not accurate?
9 A Yes.
10 Q You didn't do that to insult anyone, did you?
11 A Certainly not.
12 Q You talked about the codes that were written on top
13 of some of the letters introduced in evidence. There is
14 information about the number of pieces mailed and the code
15
that was assigned to that particular letter or mailing; is
16 that correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Did you determine that or was it determined by Liz
19 Sautter?
20 A Did I determine what?
21 Q What code to put on.
22 A The codes in most cases I had determined.
23 Q But the information written on those letters, that's 24 in your handwriting? 25 A No.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4056 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 Q That's in Ms. Sautter's handwriting?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And you were the one who actually made the
4 determination as to what code to give to a particular
5 mailing or mailing list; is that right?
6 A Yes, when it fell under my responsibility.
7 Q Okay.
8 Did Mr. Gordon have some input into that, as to
9 which code to use?
10 A Yes, sometimes.
11 Q And you indicated that
there came a time that
12 Mr. Gordon became very angry with you; is that correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q All right.
15 Did that happen more than that one occasion that
16 you talked to us about, that he became angry at you?
17 A He could get angry frequently.
18 Q And he got angry with a lot of people, right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Not just you?
21 A No.
22 Q He didn't pick you out as a person to be angry at?
23 A No. 24 Q Some days he was angry at people in administration, 25 some days he might be angry at someone in sales; is that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4057 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 right?
2 A Yes, that's right.
3 Q Would you say that Mr. Gordon was a very stubborn
4 man?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And when you suggested something to him, he didn't
7 always agree with you, and in a stu
bborn way he didn't
8 agree with you at times; is that right?
9 A I don't know how to answer that.
10 Q Okay, I will withdraw the question.
11 In any event, it was Mr. Gordon's position that
12 he knew how to run his business, and he would run it the
13 way he wanted to run it, right?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Without input from you being the second in command,
16 or the third in command, or without input from Liz Sautter
17 being the second in command or third in command, or
18 without input from any of the employees; is that fair to
19 say?
20 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.
21 THE COURT: Overruled.
22 A I can answer?
23 Q You can answer. 24 A I would say, yes. 25 Q When you first came on board at -- let me ask you
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4058 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 this: Before you were in
terviewed for the job at Who's
2 Who Worldwide, did you have -- did you do any sort of
3 research into this kind of business and what it was about?
4 A No.
5 Q Did there come a time at any time that you did any
6 sort of research into Who's Whos and what the business was
7 about?
8 A Yes.
9 Q All right.
10 Did you do some research with respect to Reed
11 Elsevir or Marquis, and what they were doing?
12 A Yes.
13 Q What kind of research did you do? What did you do?
14 A Well, there is a book that is printed about Who's
15 Who -- the Who's Who phenomenon. It is a paperback book
16 that I believe is out of print now. I was reading about
17 it and the different takeovers that happened during the
18 course of Who's Who.
19 Q Did you learn in doing that research that there is no
20 exclusivity to the use of the term Who's Who?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And that Marquis wasn't the exclusive owner of the
23 term "Who's Who?" 24 A Yes. 25 Q And did you do any research as to how many Who's
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4059 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 Whos, different kinds of Who's Whos there might be
2 published in the United States?
3 A There are quite a few.
4 Q Did you ever go look at Books in Print and see how
5 many there really were?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Do you remember the name of the book you looked at?
8 Was it Books in Print or Directories in Print?
9 A I believe it was Books in Print. The correct title.
10 Q And it happens to be a Reed Elsevir book; is that
11 right?
12 A Yes.
13 Q All right.
14 I will show you what I have marked as
15 Defendant's Exhibit AH.
16 (Handed to the witness.)
17 Q Is that a copy of pa
ges of Books in Print that relate
18 to Who's Who publications? Would you just take some time
19 to look at it.
20 A Yes, it is.
21 Q Is that what you looked at in doing the research you
22 told us about?
23 A Yes. 24 MR. SCHOER: At this time I would like to offer 25 Defendant's Exhibit AH.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4060 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 MR. WHITE: I need to look at it first.
2 THE COURT: Yes.
3 (Document handed to Mr. White.)
4 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, may I have a brief voir
5 dire?
6 THE COURT: Surely.
7
8 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
9 BY MR. WHITE:
10 Q Ms. Benjamin, when did you do this research about
11 Who's Who?
12 A It was in -- it was in about -- dates again -- '93, I
13 believe.
14 Q While you were working at Who's Who?
15 A Yes.
16 Q You did it prior to '97 or '98?
17 A Oh, yes.
18 MR. WHITE: I have an objection, your Honor.
19 THE COURT: Can I hear the last several
20 questions, the voir dire of Mr. White, please.
21 Mr. Reporter.
22 (Whereupon, the court reporter reads the
23 requested material.) 24 THE COURT: Can I see it, please? 25 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I have two bases for the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4061 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 objection.
2 THE COURT: Before you do that, let me look at
3 it.
4 MR. WHITE: Sure.
5 THE COURT: Can we staple it together?
6 MR. SCHOER: Yes, Judge.
7 THE COURT: I have a stapler here.
8 This is hearsay, isn't it?
9 MR. SCHOER: Yes.
10 THE COURT: What is the exception of the hearsay
11 rule?
12 MR. SCHOER: Research that this lady did with
13 respect to the business before she came into the business.
14 THE COURT: That is no foundation for an
15 exception to the hearsay rule. Sustained.
16
17 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)
18 BY MR. SCHOER:
19 Q In any event, when you did this research you learned
20 that there were hundreds of Who's Whos; is that correct?
21 A I don't know the exact count, but there was more than
22 one.
23 Q And more than ten? 24 A More than ten, yes. 25 Q And more than 50?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4062 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 A Yes. There were quite a few.
2 Q All right.
3 Did you also learn -- withdrawn.
4 When you did this research into Reed Elsevir, did
5 you learn whether or not Marquis Who's Who at that time
6 had a CD-ROM?
7 A Did I learn if they did?
8 Q Yes.
9 A I t
hink somebody on my staff made mention that they
10 had been offering CD-ROM. But I don't know if that was a
11 fact or not.
12 Q Had you learned whether or not they had a membership
13 organization?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Was Reed Elsevir a membership organization or just a
16 publisher?
17 A A publisher.
18 Q Do you know since Who's Who Worldwide has gone out of
19 business, whether or not -- withdrawn.
20 Do you know that since Who's Who Worldwide went
21 out of business, that Reed Elsevir has now started a Who's
22 Who membership organization?
23 A No, I have no knowledge of that. 24 Q Do you know that since Who's Who Worldwide has gone 25 out of business, that Reed Elsevir now has a CD-ROM?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4063 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 A No.
2 Q And Mr. Gordon had always said that
Reed Elsevir was
3 trying to put him out of business; is that right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And in fact, did you learn that in the course of the
6 civil case, that you talked about before, that Reed
7 Elsevir, or one of the exhibits was that Reed Elsevir --
8 someone at Reed Elsevir had written a letter saying that
9 Who's Who Worldwide is a thorn in our side?
10 A I was not aware. I wasn't privy to that, to that
11 case.
12 Q And is it fair to say -- and I think we may have
13 talked about this this morning, but is it fair to say that
14 Who's Who Worldwide was growing and growing?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And membership was growing?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And it was becoming more and more competitive with
19 Reed; is that fair to say?
20 A Yes.
21 Q On a daily, monthly, and weekly basis, it was
22 becoming more and more a competitor of Reed; isn't that
23 so? 24 A I guess that was the perception, yes. 25 Q Now, you indicated that there came a time when there
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4064 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 was this discussion about sending someone to -- on the
2 Hong Kong, Vietnam trip, if members purchased the tour?
3 A Uh-huh.
4 Q And I think you mentioned that Tara might have been
5 one of the people that could have gone; is that correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And do you know whether anyone ever told Tara that?
8 A I don't know.
9 Q Okay.
10 A I don't know.
11 Q This is a discussion you had with Mr. Gordon, right?
12 A I think people were joking, can I go, can I go, that
13 type of a thing, so --
14 Q Okay.
15 Now, you testified that there were times when
16 Wendi Springer would come to you to inquire as to whether
17 or
not a particular person was qualified to be a member of
18 Who's Who Worldwide; is that right?
19 A On occasion, yes.
20 Q And this was after that particular person had been
21 spoken to and interviewed by one of the salespeople; is
22 that right?
23 A Yes. 24 Q It was after an order had been written; isn't that 25 so?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4065 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 A Yes.
2 Q And even at that stage, after an order had been
3 written, there was a screening process by Wendi Springer,
4 and I think you said even perhaps eight other people who
5 were doing data entry, to determine whether or not a
6 particular person was qualified? Is that fair?
7 A Yes, yes.
8 Q Now, when Wendi Springer came to you and asked
9 whether a person was qualified, if you didn't believe that
10 that pers
on was qualified, you would tell her no, right?
11 A Correct.
12 Q You would tell her to make a refund; is that right?
13 A I would say to check with Mr. Gordon to make a
14 refund.
15 Q All right.
16 You had an idea of what the qualifications were
17 for being admitted into membership; isn't that correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q In fact, on that document I think you have right in
20 front of you, what exhibit number is that?
21 A AA.
22 Q AA?
23 A Yes. 24 Q And at the top of that it sort of lists the criteria, 25 doesn't it?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4066 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 A Yes.
2 Q What does it say? Can you read it to the jury?
3 A Slowly?
4 Q Yes, very slowly.
5 A Each member of WWW must be interviewed before
6 acceptance. Members are CEOs, COOs, presidents,
chairmen,
8 governmental leaders, educators, producers and other
9 leaders in all industries.
10 Q When you sent that out, you believed that to be true;
11 is that correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q You didn't intend to deceive anyone by making that
14 statement when you sent that out with a letter that you
15 had written above your name; is that correct?
16 A No.
17 Q That's basically the criteria you used when Wendi
18 Springer would come to you to determine whether or not
19 someone qualified to be a member in Who's Who Worldwide,
20 right?
21 A Yes.
22 Q You testified about the Transnational script that was
23 introduced into evidence. Do you remember that? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q All right.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4067 Benjamin-cross/Scho
er
1 There was -- and I think you testified that there
2 was nothing wrong with that script as far as you could
3 see, except for the issue that concerned the fund raising;
4 is that right?
5 A That is correct.
6 Q And Mr. Gordon didn't want anyone to ever believe
7 that this was a not for profit corporation, did he?
8 A No.
9 Q In fact, he was pretty emphatic about that, that no
10 one was ever to be told this was a not for profit
11 corporation; is that correct?
12 A That's so.
13 Q And people make mistakes, right?
14 A Uh-huh.
15 Q And you showed that ad -- let me find it -- for the
16 auto insurance where you had told them to delete certain
17 information?
18 A Uh-huh.
19 Q Isn't that correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q That was information concerning the fact that Who's
22 Who Worldwide was getting some money back if
someone had
23 joined or purchased the auto insurance through 24 Transnational; is that right? 25 A That is correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4068 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 Q If you just bear with me, I will try to find the
2 right Tribute.
3 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
4 proceedings.)
5 Q I will show you what is marked as
6 Defendant's Exhibit D in evidence. I will show you the
7 advertisement. And that's the one we were talking about,
8 the one about auto insurance; isn't that correct?
9 (Handed to the witness.)
10 A Uh-huh.
11 Q And, in fact, that paragraph, at least that sentence
12 concerning the compensation to Who's Who Worldwide is
13 still in that, right?
14 A Yes, it is.
15 Q So, that was a mistake, right?
16 A On this one, yes.
17 Q Peo
ple make mistakes, right?
18 A Uh-huh.
19 Q Okay.
20 The salary that you made while you were at Who's
21 Who Worldwide, do you remember what you were being paid?
22 A $1,500 a week.
23 Q Is it fair to say as far as you knew that other than 24 Mr. Gordon, you were making the highest salary there? 25 A I had no idea what anybody was making there. It was
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4069 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 a very quiet subject.
2 Q Okay.
3 In addition to the salary you received, you had a
4 car, a company car?
5 A A company car, yes.
6 Q And Liz Sautter also had a company car?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And Mr. Gordon also had a company car?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Anybody else have a company car that you know of?
11 A Not that I am aware of.
12 Q Is it fair to say that while you were at Who's
Who,
13 the company delivered what they promised to deliver to
14 people?
15 A Yes.
16 Q In fact, you testified to that under oath?
17 A Yes.
18 Q At a hearing?
19 A Yes.
20 Q In the bankruptcy court?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Isn't that right?
23 A Yes. 24 Q All right. 25 The day that the agents came at the end of March,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4070 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 1995, you were working?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And were you at Lake Success that day or in New York?
6 A No, I was in Manhattan.
7 Q And they arrested certain people?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Isn't that right?
10 A Yes.
11 Q They didn't arrest you though, did they?
12 A No.
13 Q Did they know your name at that time?
14 A Yes.
15 Q You ide
ntified yourself, right?
16 A Excuse me?
17 Q You identified yourself at that time; isn't that
18 right?
19 A No. Mr. Gordon and I had had a meeting with the
20 inspectors a few days prior to the incident happening.
21 Q And when you had that meeting a few days prior to the
22 incident happening, the raid, you identified yourself as
23 Debra Benjamin; is that right? 24 A Yes. 25 Q To Mr. Biegelman?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4071 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 A Mr. Biegelman and Mr. Pagano.
2 Q Did you tell them what your position was in the
3 company?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Did you indicate that you were a vice president?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And you were the director of marketing?
8 A Yes.
9 Q But when the time came for the raid they didn't
10 arrest you?
11 A No.
12 Q Okay
.
13 Now, you indicated there came a time when you
14 traveled to California with Mr. Gordon; isn't that right?
15 A With Mr. Gordon and Tara.
16 Q And Tara?
17 A Uh-huh.
18 Q And was that trip a sort of spur of the moment?
19 A Yeah, it kind of was.
20 Q You weren't given a great advance notice that you
21 were going to be going to California, were you?
22 A No.
23 Q In fact, if you remember, Tara has just come back 24 from a vacation in California and she was told she had to 25 go back out there?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4072 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 A That's correct.
2 Q When you went out to California Mr. Gordon rode first
3 class on the plane; is that right?
4 A Right.
5 Q And you and Tara were sitting in the back with the
6 regular people; is that right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And when you got out to California Mr. Gordon had
9 this suite that he stayed in; is that right?
10 A I don't know what kind of accommodations he had.
11 Q You and Tara were in a room together?
12 A Together, yes.
13 Q And Mr. Gordon really didn't tell you much about what
14 was -- what your purpose out there was, other than to look
15 for an office; is that right?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And to maybe try and get an initial interview,
18 initial interviews of some people, right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And to look for furniture for the office; is that
21 right?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And he didn't tell you he was going to set up 24 separate corporations for doing business in California, 25 did he?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4073 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 A No.
2 Q You thought that was all goi
ng to be part of Who's
3 Who Worldwide, right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And you thought it was going to be just an expansion
6 again of the business, right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Providing more service for more people, right?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Because you and Tara, your goal was to provide
11 service for your members; is that fair to say?
12 A Very fair.
13 Q And you wanted to serve those members in any way you
14 could; is that fair to say?
15 A That's fair.
16 Q Okay.
17 And your idea was if you had offices in
18 California, you had offices in Europe, you have offices
19 here, you have offices there, it is easier to service the
20 members; is that right?
21 A That's right.
22 Q This was going in your mind, and you envisioned this
23 to become a major membership organization, right? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Where people got benefits for do
ing this, for being
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4074 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 part of the membership, right?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And where people got -- had the ability to meet other
4 business people and network, right?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And where eventually there would be conferences,
7 educational things, Tribute Magazines which would provide
8 educational information to members as well; isn't that so?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And that was sort of like other membership
11 organizations; isn't that so?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Sort of like the American Bar Association?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Right?
16 A Yes.
17 Q The American Bar Association is a group of lawyers
18 who are members?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Is that right?
21 A That is correct.
22 Q Who get together for conferences at times?
23
A Yes. 24 Q And educational services? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4075 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 Q Right?
2 A Right.
3 Q And get benefits, discounted benefited, the same sort
4 of benefits that Who's Who was offering, right?
5 A I imagine similar.
6 Q They get a magazine very similar to this, talking
7 about other people in the law, talking about legal issues,
8 right?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And that was your goal with the Tribute, to do a
11 magazine sort of like the American Bar Association
12 journal?
13 A Yes.
14 Q As this company was growing and as you were there,
15 you were getting feedback from members; isn't that so?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And the feedback you were getting from members was
18 very positive. Is that fair to say?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Members w
ere happy with the services they were being
21 provided?
22 A Yes.
23 Q If they weren't happy with the services they were 24 being provided you and all the people there would try to 25 make them happy; is that right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4076 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 A That's correct.
2 Q You believed you were selling them a valuable
3 product, and you wanted to give them that product, right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Now, did there come a time when -- let me take a step
6 back for a second.
7 When you had that meeting with Inspector
8 Biegelman several days before the raid, you explained to
9 Inspector Biegelman, you and Mr. Gordon together explained
10 to Mr. Biegelman the situation of this other Who's Who; is
11 that correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And you also explained the situation concerning, I
14 believe you said Mr. Parks?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And you explained to -- you showed him around the
17 offices, right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q This was at Sterling in Manhattan?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Is that right?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And you explained to him what you were doing, and the 24 process? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4077 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 Q Isn't that so?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Is it the membership, and the whole concept of Who's
4 Who Worldwide?
5 A Yes.
6 Q He told you everything was okay, right?
7 A He didn't indicate one way or the other.
8 Q He didn't indicate that you were doing anything
9 wrong, did he?
10 A No.
11 Q All right.
12 He didn't indicate you were doing anything
13 illegal?
14 A No.
15 Q Did he?
16 A No.
17 Q He didn't indicate that you might get indicted and go
18 to trial because of things that were being done at Who's
19 Who Worldwide, did he? Not you in particularly --
20 A No.
21 Q -- personally, but employees?
22 A No.
23 Q Now, did there come a time when, when you did an 24 analysis of the members and their titles? Did you ever do 25 anything like that?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4078 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 A We did a leadership study from Tribute, or worked on
2 a leadership study.
3 Q I was going to ask you about that.
4 A Yes.
5 Q Also, did you ever do any sort of analysis of the
6 members and their titles from the CD-ROM?
7 A I believe we did, yes.
8 (Mr. Schoer confers with Mr. Jenks.)
9 Q I will show you what I have marked as
10 Defendant's Exhibit AI
for Identification.
11 I will ask you whether that is the analysis that
12 you did of the titles of members that were on the CD-ROM.
13 (Handed to the witness.)
14 A I am not a hundred percent sure if I prepared this or
15 someone who worked with me, it might have been Maggie
16 Swendseid.
17 Q Under your supervision?
18 A Yes.
19 THE COURT: It might have been who?
20 THE WITNESS: Maggie Swendseid.
21 THE COURT: Maggie.
22 Q It was done under your supervision, and it was a
23 document prepared on behalf of Who's Who Worldwide? 24 A Yes. 25 MR. SCHOER: Your Honor, I will offer that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4079 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 document in evidence. I will show it to Mr. White.
2 MR. WHITE: I would like to see it.
3 (Document handed to Mr. White.)
4 MR. WHITE: Your Hono
r, may I have a voir dire?
5 THE COURT: Sure. ^^
6
7 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
8 BY MR. TRABULUS:
9 Q Ms. Benjamin, approximately when, if you recall, was
10 this document prepared?
11 A As I said, I don't believe I prepared it myself. I
12 believe it was someone on my staff, probably Maggie. But
13 it had to be after the CD-ROM was released.
14 Q Was an analysis like this done only once or done once
15 and then done again and updated?
16 A No. I believe it was just the one time.
17 MR. WHITE: I have no objection.
18 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit AI, Abel Item, in
19 evidence.
20 MR. SCHOER: May I publish this to the jury?
21 THE COURT: Yes, you may. But pick up the other
22 exhibit.
23 MR. SCHOER: Yes, I will. I am doing that right 24 now. 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 40
80 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 (Whereupon, the exhibit/exhibits were published
2 to the jury.)
3
4 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)
5 BY MR. SCHOER:
6 Q Ms. Benjamin, I am going to show you again the
7 Tribute Magazines.
8 I will ask you some questions about them.
9 Perhaps you can pick up the first one and tell us what
10 exhibits number that is, the first volume.
11 A Gordon-H.
12 Q Okay.
13 Looking at -- opening that book and looking at
14 the first page, it says: From the publisher. There is a
15 statement signed by Mr. Gordon; is that correct?
16 A Uh-huh, yes.
17 Q Did you write that or did Mr. Gordon write that? Do
18 you remember?
19 A I think it was a cooperative effort.
20 Q Okay.
21 And the things that are contained in there, as
22 far as you knew, they were true, right?
23 A Yes. 24 Q O
kay. 25 Looking at page 3. That's a list of benefits,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4081 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 programs and privileges; is that fair to say?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And in fact, it talks about things that you were
4 planning on doing, sort of conferences -- it doesn't list
5 any particular conference, because these are things you
6 had in the works, or that you wanted to do; isn't that so?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And it talks about a New York City business center?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Can you tell us what that was?
11 A At the Sterling offices, which were located right off
12 Lexington Avenue, there was a very, very large conference
13 room. And there were smaller conference rooms that
14 members could avail themselves of.
15 Q And, in fact, in that letter, that first letter from
16 the publisher, you also inv
ite people to provide you with
17 articles; isn't that correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q For future publication?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And invite people to send them -- send you a list of
22 recent professional awards and promotions and upcoming
23 speeches, and things like that, books and articles so you 24 can spotlight them in the Who's Who magazine? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4082 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 Q And that was all done so that members would be able
2 to get a value from this magazine, right?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Both the members who submitted those documents would
5 have the value of self promotion, business promotion,
6 right?
7 A Uh-huh.
8 Q And the members who were reading the magazine would
9 have the value of learning about what other people were
10 doing, and various areas o
f business; is that fair to say
11 as well?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And you talk about in that letter the conference
14 rooms in Manhattan, right?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And you even say that there are business center
17 conference rooms and other services in a breath taking
18 international plaza building in Manhattan, yes?
19 A Yes.
20 Q That was all true, right?
21 A Yes.
22 Q You didn't intend to deceive any of those members
23 when you put those things in your magazine, did you? 24 A Not at all. 25 Q Now, in that magazine as well, there were member
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4083 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 profiles; isn't that so?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q And these were profiles of people who had purchased
4 memberships in Who's Who; is that fair to say?
5 A That's correct.
6
Q And one of those was the chairman of the board of
7 Viacom International?
8 A Yes, Sumner Redstone.
9 Q The other was the co-chairman of Hanna Barbara; is
10 that correct?
11 A That's correct.
12 Q And one was the corporate vice voice of Boeing?
13 A That is correct.
14 Q The other was the president of Norsk, N O R S K; is
15 that correct?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q Was one the executive producer of the Reading Rainbow
18 TV series?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Was one the president and CEO of GE Appliances?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q One was the manager of the McDonnell-Douglas?
23 A That's correct. 24 Q One was the president of Izod? 25 A That's correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4084 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 Q The retired chairman and CEO of Emerson Electric?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Senior vice president and CEO of Burger King?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And these people were all members of your
6 organization; is that right?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q In addition in that first issue there were some
9 articles written by members; is that correct?
10 A That's correct -- the first time? I believe --
11 Q There was an article called, great opportunities
12 overseas but be aware of risks?
13 A Yes.
14 Q That was written by a member?
15 A Yes.
16 Q This was the first one?
17 A The very first one.
18 Q A trial, right?
19 A Uh-huh.
20 Q It was your idea to make it even better, right?
21 A Right.
22 Q Would you pull out the second one.
23 Which exhibit is that for the record? 24 A Gordon-G. 25 Q Looking again at Gordon-G on page 2, the message from
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COUR
T REPORTER 4085 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 the CEO and publisher, Mr. Gordon, did you again
2 collaborate with him to prepare that?
3 A Yes, myself and the other editorial staff members.
4 Q And you indicated there that you invite all to drop
5 us a line about your new enterprise or products?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And about your favorite hotels and locations, and
8 that's because you had a little squib in there about
9 restaurants, people's favorite restaurants and hotels; is
10 that right?
11 A Yes.
12 Q You encourage people to write letters; is that right?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Also, there is a PS at the end of that column; is
15 that right?
16 A Yes.
17 Q That says that the organization is growing rapidly,
18 domestically and internationally, and you are going to
19 provide expanded services and privileges because the
20 members
hip was becoming stronger, right?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And when all those things were written you intended
23 all those things to happen? 24 A Absolutely. 25 Q You didn't intend to deceive the members by putting
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4086 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 those things in the magazine, did you?
2 A No.
3 Q In fact, you had received some letters after the
4 first edition; isn't that so?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And those are on page 4; is that right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Those letters were very favorable to what you were
9 doing; is that correct?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And they encouraged you to continue to do what you
12 were doing; is that right?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And they encouraged you because they believed and you
15 believed that you were providing a service to your
16 members; is
that right?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And, again, you listed on page 7 the privileges --
19 the benefits of the -- of the organization? Things that
20 people could do, right?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And in that edition you talked about Tass, T A S S?
23 A Yes. 24 Q And also about the Hyde International Group? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4087 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 Q And, again, you were believing that you were growing
2 and expanding on behalf of your membership?
3 A Yes.
4 Q You were providing them growing and expanded
5 services; is that right?
6 A Yes.
7 Q By trying to hook up with Tass and Hyde; is that
8 right?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Again, in that edition there were member profiles; is
11 that right?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And there were also the spotlights we talked about
?
14 A Uh-huh.
15 Q Right?
16 A Uh-huh.
17 Q In this edition there were some advertising; is that
18 correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Advertising from Chevis Regal, Izod, and Cadillac?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Hilton?
23 A Yes. 24 Q And you believed what you were doing here was, again, 25 providing a little service to your membership?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4088 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 A Yes.
2 Q And looking --
3 THE COURT: You are not going through another one
4 of those?
5 MR. SCHOER: I was going to go through one more.
6 THE COURT: You are not going to.
7 The other one is similar, profiles?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes.
9 THE COURT: Advertisements?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 THE COURT: Famous people?
12 THE WITNESS: That's right.
13 THE COURT: All ri
ght.
14 Q Let me ask you in general, the other magazines
15 started to add additional benefits; is that right?
16 A Yes.
17 Q There were advertisements for the CD-ROM, right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And there were advertisements that said there were
20 57,000 plus members, right?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And that this was the executive networking at its
23 best, right? 24 A All right. 25 Q And you believed those kind of statements to be true,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4089 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 didn't you?
2 A Yes, I did.
3 Q You didn't intend to deceive anyone when you put
4 those in the magazine, right?
5 A No, not at all.
6 Q All right.
7 You also, I think, mentioned that there was a
8 survey in one of the magazines?
9 A Yes.
10 Q A member survey?
11 A The
readership survey.
12 Q Readership survey?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And it requested certain information from the
15 membership concerning their habits really?
16 A Exactly.
17 Q And also whether they were reading a magazine, and
18 what suggestions they might have for improving a magazine?
19 A That's correct.
20 Q And did you get any -- did you get results from that
21 survey?
22 A Yes, I did, an overwhelming amount, as a matter of
23 fact. I was very shocked. 24 Q And you used that to plan for future additions of 25 your magazine; isn't that so?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4090 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 A Yes.
2 Q One of the people you profiled in the magazine was a
3 lady from Hard Copy; is that right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And Hard Copy is a kind of television show that does
6 investig
ative journalism; is that right?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q And if you thought that you were doing something to
9 deceive people by having people join your organization,
10 you certainly wouldn't have profiled someone from Hard
11 Copy, would you?
12 A No.
13 Q That would be the last person in the world you would
14 want to profile; isn't that so?
15 A That's right.
16 Q Also in the magazine there were nomination ballots?
17 A Yes.
18 Q There came a time you prepared a declaration under
19 penalties of perjury; do you recall doing that?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Is it fair to say that when the agents came and
22 closed down the business after the raid, that you were
23 planning additional services at that time? 24 A Prior to the raid? 25 Q Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4091 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 A Yes.
2 Q And you were going to add some more services, right?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And I think you said you had a Tribute Magazine ready
5 to go to press?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q And one of the services, the new services that you
8 were going to provide to members was an ADP payroll
9 service at a discounted rate?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And you had that all in place?
12 A Pretty much.
13 Q Okay.
14 And you were also going to provide to members
15 discounted Sky-Tel Paging Services?
16 A One of the new ones also.
17 Q And you were going to continue to try and expand the
18 services that were going to be provided to members?
19 A Yes.
20 Q In that -- did you tell -- withdrawn.
21 That declaration under penalty of perjury, that
22 was something you submitted to the Court, or Who's Who
23 Worldwide submitted to a co
urt, and you knew that when you 24 prepared it; isn't that correct? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4092 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 Q And you knew that you were swearing to the things
2 that were contained in that document, isn't that right?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q And is it fair to say that when you put in that
5 document that there are qualifications for the members,
6 and we try to be highly selective about the people we ask
7 to join?
8 A Yes.
9 Q You believe that to be true; isn't that right?
10 A I always believed that to be true.
11 Q And you still believe that to be true as you sit here
12 right now?
13 A Yes.
14 Q You don't believe you deceived any of your members
15 into joining who were -- because you stated that you were
16 highly selective, did you -- do you?
17 A
I am sorry, you confused me with that one.
18 Q I will withdraw it. I think I confused myself.
19 You don't believe that you deceived any of your
20 members into joining because you held yourself out to be
21 highly selective? And when I say you, I mean the company;
22 isn't that true?
23 A That's true. 24 Q And you indicated that you seek managerial and 25 professional people --
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4093 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 MR. WHITE: Objection. Mr. Schoer is reading
2 from a document not in evidence.
3 THE COURT: He may be reading it. It is not
4 evident to me. I didn't watch him closely. If he was I
5 would let him do it anyway. He could read every word of
6 his cross-examination. Some lawyers do that. Did you
7 know that, Mr. White?
8 MR. WHITE: I am not objecting to him reading,
9
your Honor. He can read what he wants. I am objecting to
10 him to talking about a document and reading sentence by
11 sentence to the witness.
12 THE COURT: I wasn't aware he was referring to a
13 document.
14 MR. WHITE: He was. He keeps referring to this
15 declaration.
16 THE COURT: A declaration. Is that an
17 objection?
18 MR. WHITE: Yes, your Honor.
19 THE COURT: Overruled.
20 He could be reading from the Encyclopedia
21 Britanica if he wants to, and ask every question from a
22 printed document, if he wants to.
23 Q Did you indicate at that time that Who's Who 24 Worldwide was seeking individuals who are high ranking in 25 their fields?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4094 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 THE COURT: Are you now referring to a
2 particular -- as to whether this witness stated t
hat in a
3 document?
4 MR. SCHOER: Yes, Judge.
5 THE COURT: I am sorry, you are quite right.
6 MR. WHITE: I was a little puzzled.
7 THE COURT: No, you are quite right.
8 Sustained. Strike out the last answer, too.
9 What I meant, members of the jury, is that some
10 lawyers write out their entire cross-examination, and read
11 it question by question. There is nothing wrong with
12 that. I used to do some of that myself when I wasn't
13 sure.
14 Of course, that's different from reading from a
15 document that is not in evidence and trying to get it in
16 that way. That you can't do.
17 You are right, Mr. White. I apologize.
18 MR. WHITE: For once I am right.
19 THE COURT: You have been right more than once,
20 Mr. White. But no more than the other lawyers, of
21 course.
22 MR. WHITE: Of course.
23 Q Is it fair to say that y
our experience at Who's Who 24 Worldwide you believed that the company was being 25 selective and highly selective with respect to the members
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4095 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 that it chose to include?
2 A Yes.
3 THE COURT: Mr. Schoer is not only being
4 repetitive, but he is fading away, which is a double
5 dose.
6 You said that about four times. Maybe it is more
7 like ten times.
8 MR. SCHOER: I thought you just struck that, and
9 I thought I would rephrase it and try another way.
10 THE COURT: No. You covered that an hour ago,
11 Mr. Schoer, which is all right, that's fine. But enough
12 is enough.
13 MR. SCHOER: Enough is almost enough. I have a
14 few more questions, I am sorry.
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 Q Based on your experience did you believe from the
17 members that they were happy with the product that you
18 were providing?
19 MR. WHITE: Objection.
20 THE COURT: No. That's a new twist. I didn't
21 hear that one before, whether the members were happy.
22 That's a new one. Overruled. That showed initiative,
23 Mr. White? 24 MR. WHITE: Me, or Mr. Schoer? 25 THE COURT: Mr. Schoer right now.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4096 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1 MR. WHITE: All right.
2 THE COURT: You will have your turn.
3 MR. SCHOER: Thank you.
4 THE WITNESS: Can I answer?
5 THE COURT: Were the members happy?
6 THE WITNESS: The ones I spoke to were.
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 Q They believed they got value for what they purchased?
9 A I don't know if it was value. But it was the
10 recognition. Their egos enjoyed it tremendously.
11 Q Also,
you were providing services, you gave them what
12 you promised to give them?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And if they chose to take advantage of those services
15 they were there, right?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q Some members close to take advantage of the services
18 and others didn't?
19 A That's correct.
20 Q As far as you were concerned, as a member of the
21 company, you weren't trying to deceive them to defraud
22 them in any way, were you?
23 A Not at all. 24 MR. SCHOER: That's all I have, Judge. 25 Thank you.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4097 Benjamin-cross/Schoer
1
2 CROSS-EXAMINATION
3 BY MR. NELSON:
4 Q Good afternoon, Ms. Benjamin.
5 A Good afternoon.
6 Q Ms. Benjamin, I believe you testified that you were
7 working at Who's Who Worldwide commencing in the early
8 fall of 1992; is that correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And your last day of employment was the day that the
11 search warrant was executed at the end of March, 1995; is
12 that correct?
13 A That's right.
14 Q And now, when you first started working at Who's Who
15 Worldwide, would I be correct in stating that the
16 benefits, the tangible benefits, that circumstances that
17 were offered to the members consisted primarily of the
18 plaque, the Registry and entry in the Registry, and a
19 listing in the Registry, and the seal provided to the
20 members who joined?
21 A Yes, I would say that was pretty much it.
22 Q And would I be correct that over the course of time
23 that you were employed at Who's Who Worldwide, you became 24 primarily involved in the inclusion of additional benefits 25 which Mr. Schoer has gone through in a great deal of
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4098 Benjamin-cross/Nelson
1 detail over the course of that two and a half year period
2 of time?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Is that right?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q Now, I represent Frank Martin. You know Mr. Martin;
7 is that correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And Mr. Martin was working at the company when you
10 first came to work at Who's Who Worldwide; is that right?
11 A He -- yes.
12 Q Am I correct that he left the employment of Who's Who
13 Worldwide a few months after you came on board?
14 A Yes.
15 Q So that at the time he came to the employment at
16 Who's Who Worldwide, the benefits being provided as we
17 stated before were the plaque, the Registry and the seal
18 primarily; is that correct?
19 A That's correct.
20 Q Now, am I correct that Mr. Martin came back to work
21 at Who's Who prior to the search warrant being executed?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And he came back, as I recall, it was towards the end 24 of November in 1994; do you remember that? 25 A Yes. Around that time frame.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4099 Benjamin-cross/Nelson
1 Q Now, Mr. Martin had been employed in the sales
2 department; is that right?
3 A Yes.
4 Q He was a group leader?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And part of his duties and responsibilities were to
7 supervise the various different people in the sales
8 department; is that right?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q Now, Mr. Schoer asked you a few questions with
11 respect to Tara.
12 During the course of Mr. Martin's employment
13 while you were at the company, am I correct that you heard
14 Mr. Martin tell the sales staff during the course of
15
meetings, you have to stick to the pitch?
16 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
17 proceedings.)
18 Q Let me withdraw the question, did you ever hear him
19 speak with sales people at sales meetings during the time
20 you were there --
21 A Sales meetings per se, no.
22 Q Did you ever hear him in the course of training
23 meetings with new employees? 24 A Not really. It is not something I would hear. 25 Q Did you ever hear him addressing the different
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4100 Benjamin-cross/Nelson
1 employees in the company who worked in the sales
2 department?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Did you ever hear him go over the sales script with
5 any of the members of the company?
6 A No.
7 Q Did you ever hear him discuss with any member of the
8 company that they should follow the sc
ript?
9 A No, not one way or another.
10 Q Did you ever hear him say that they should deviate
11 from the script whatsoever?
12 A No.
13 Q Did you ever hear him at any point in time make a
14 misstatement of fact as you knew the facts of the company
15 to be while you were employed there?
16 A No.
17 Q Did you ever hear Mr. Martin make any form of a
18 misrepresentation to any employee of the company?
19 A No.
20 Q Did you ever hear Mr. Martin tell, train, supervise,
21 or request any member of the company to make a
22 misrepresentation to a prospective customer?
23 A No. 24 Q Now, when Mr. Martin returned to the company in March 25 of 1994, would I be correct in stating that the membership
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4101 Benjamin-cross/Nelson
1 package, the benefits of membership had va
stly improved?
2 There was a great deal of benefits provided qualitatively
3 for people coming into the company?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And would I be correct that as it related to those
6 members, the benefits that were going to be provided are
7 set forth in great detail in the various different Tribute
8 Magazines that Mr. Schoer has gone over with you in some
9 detail?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And by November of 1994, am I correct that by that
12 point in time there were at least three or four Tribute
13 Magazines that already had been released to the public?
14 A Yes.
15 Q So that, if Mr. Martin had had the opportunity to
16 review a Tribute Magazine, or a number of those Tribute
17 Magazines prior to his agreement to return to the employee
18 of Who's Who Worldwide, he would have become aware of the
19 vastly expended package now being provided to the
20
membership?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Is that correct?
23 A Yes. 24 Q And that would have included the CD-ROM? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4102 Benjamin-cross/Nelson
1 Q Is that right?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And it would have included the Master Card, which was
4 now being provided as a benefit to members?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Is that correct?
7 A Yes.
8 Q All right.
9 Let me go into a different area and not belabor
10 the parts asked by other attorneys.
11 In addition to the solicitation required as a
12 result of the mailing lists, am I correct that in Tribute
13 Magazine there was included nomination ballots?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And it had been -- it had been your decision, or you
16 were the impetus behind attempting to require present
17 members nominating new members whe
n you came on board in
18 late 1992?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Is that correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And when you first came to the employment of Who's
23 Who Worldwide, am I correct that in fact members did 24 nominate members, but there wasn't a procedure which 25 existed within the company for that to take place?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4103 Benjamin-cross/Nelson
1 A That's correct.
2 Q People would send in letters or faxes for purposes of
3 nominating friends or co-employees; is that right?
4 A That's right.
5 Q And because it was coming in in a manner which was
6 relatively disorganized, it was difficult, if not
7 impossible to make use of the resources of such an option;
8 is that correct?
9 A I would say so, yes.
10 Q And having seen, once you were working there, that
11 these nominati
ons were coming in from existing members for
12 new members, you saw this as an opportunity to expand a
13 qualified membership base; is that right?
14 A That's right.
15 Q Am I correct that there were a number of different
16 means by which the nomination ballots went out?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And one would be in the Tribute Magazine; is that
19 right?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And when the new membership package was sent out to a
22 new member, did that likewise include a nomination ballot?
23 A Yes. 24 Q Okay. 25 And during the course of time there were
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4104 Benjamin-cross/Nelson
1 periodically membership updates, I guess informational
2 brochures that were sent to the membership in general; is
3 that right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Okay.
6 Did those mailings likewise
include nomination
7 ballots on occasion?
8 A On occasion, yes.
9 Q And so, would it be fair to say that by November of
10 1994 there had been literally hundreds of thousands of
11 nomination ballots which were sent out to existing members
12 for the purpose of the nomination of new members?
13 A There were -- yes, there had been, you know, a lot of
14 mailings done at that point.
15 Q Now, during the course of questioning yesterday by
16 Mr. White, he had asked you about the number of nomination
17 ballots you saw when the mail came in as opposed to
18 ballots as lead cards that came in during the few
19 occasions that you saw the mail being sorted.
20 A Yes.
21 Q Do you recall that testimony?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And would I be correct in stating that as it related 24 to nomination ballots, since there were numerous different 25 forms of mailing
s sent out with respect to the nomination
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4105 Benjamin-cross/Nelson
1 ballots, that the nomination ballots came back to the
2 company not in one large lump sum, but they came back
3 literally on a daily basis in a smaller quantity?
4 A Yes.
5 Q As time went on and more and more nomination ballots
6 were sent out more nominations were coming in from
7 existing members?
8 A I wouldn't know the number if there were more or
9 less.
10 Q Would you say the intention was that as time went on
11 and the company expanded with new nomination ballots being
12 sent out to existing members to nominate new members, the
13 expectation on the part of the company was, or at least
14 your expectation was that more and more members would be
15 nominating new members?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Okay.
18 That expectation, were you able to determine over
19 the course of time were the number of nominations, as
20 opposed in 1992, increasing by 1994?
21 A I am sorry --
22 Q I will withdraw the question and rephrase it. It is
23 a confusing question. 24 A I am sorry. 25 Q If we were to compare the number of nominations in
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4106 Benjamin-cross/Nelson
1 1992, with the number of nominations in late 1994, would I
2 be correct in stating that the number or quantity of
3 people nominated by existing numbers would be greater?
4 A I would assume it was. But I wouldn't know factually
5 what it was.
6 Q And that's because you weren't in a position on a
7 daily basis to sort through the mail as it was coming in?
8 A That's right.
9 Q All right.
10 Would I be correct in st
ating that had Mr. Martin
11 in perusing the Tribute Magazine and the various different
12 periodicals and mailings sent out between 1992 and 1994,
13 review those materials before he returned to the company
14 in 1994, he would have become aware of the fact that there
15 is now or there was now a procedure in place for the
16 nomination of new members by existing members?
17 A If he had reviewed --
18 Q Yes.
19 A Yes.
20 Q Do you recall ever discussing with Mr. Martin
21 following his return to the company the existence of a
22 nomination procedure?
23 A I don't recall discussing it with him, but, you know, 24 I can recall a conversation where he was thrilled with the 25 magazine.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4107 Benjamin-cross/Nelson
1 Q Did he discuss with you the fact that he had read
2 what w
as enclosed in the magazine and happy with the fact
3 that there had been a vastly expanded amount of benefits
4 to the members of Who's Who Worldwide?
5 A Yes.
6 Q I believe you testified with respect to the mailings
7 that went out, you would review with Mr. Gordon the type
8 of mailing list that would be utilized for the purpose of
9 the mailings; is that correct?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q And in addition to doing that you would select
12 certain groups or areas on particular mailing lists for
13 purposes of the solicitations?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Is that right?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q And that would then result in the mailings that were
18 sent out and eventually led to lead parts?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Is that correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And would I be correct in stating that the reason why
23 you and Mr. Gordon would review the crit
eria in the 24 mailing list, was to assure the quality and exclusivity of 25 the people who would be included in that particular
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4108 Benjamin-cross/Nelson
1 mailing?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Now, once the lead cards were returned, I believe you
4 indicated you observed on a few occasions that there was a
5 sorting procedure that took place when the male first came
6 down?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q When that occurred, and when particular individuals
9 seemed not to qualify, not within the criteria, those
10 people would be plucked out immediately; is that correct?
11 A They should have been.
12 Q Now -- correct me if I am wrong. But do you
13 understand the next part of the procedure in terms of the
14 lead cards were that the lead cards would be distributed
15 to the different group
leaders who would then distribute
16 the cards to the sales personnel for the purposes of
17 making the telephone calls?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And were you aware of the fact that a policy existed
20 whereby Bruce Gordon had instructed the group leaders to
21 review the lead cards before they were distributed to the
22 various different salespeople to see that the people who
23 were in the lead cards would qualify for being members of 24 Who's Who Worldwide? 25 A I wouldn't know if he had made that statement to the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4109 Benjamin-cross/Nelson
1 group leaders.
2 Q Were you aware of a policy accident existed, whereby
3 the sales personnel were instructed to return lead cards
4 to the group leaders if they felt that the person was not
5 qualified for being a member of Who's Who Worldwide?
6 A Yes. I heard that said numerous times.
7 Q You heard that from Mr. Gordon, Tara and Frank; is
8 that correct?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q And am I correct that they would tell the various
11 different sales personnel, if you return a lead card to
12 somebody who is not qualified, you would give -- we would
13 give another lead card to somebody who is qualified; is
14 that correct? In other words, redeem one for another?
15 A I imagine that that is how the policy would have
16 worked.
17 Q And I believe you also indicated that -- withdrawn.
18 Am I correct in stating that after the lead cards
19 were distributed to the sales personnel, the sales
20 personnel would then call and interview each of the people
21 contained in the lead card?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Okay. 24 And based upon that interview, if the sales 25 personnel would make a determinatio
n that the person was
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4110 Benjamin-cross/Nelson
1 qualified, they would prepare an order form which was
2 subsequently submitted to Wendi Springer or other members
3 of the administration department; is that right?
4 A If the person purchased a membership.
5 Q Right.
6 Am I correct that once that occurred, there was
7 another level of screening which would take place by Wendi
8 Springer and people who worked with her to determine
9 whether or not the people who had already been screened by
10 the sales staff were qualified to be members?
11 A Yes.
12 Q So, in summary would I be correct in stating that as
13 it related to the people who became members as a result of
14 the mailings, there were really four separate levels of
15 screening, those including the exclusivity of the mailing
16 list, and initial sorting and screening when the card came
17 in, a review by the group leader, the salesperson, and the
18 qualifying interview, and finally, a review by the
19 administration department to make sure that the person who
20 sent in the lead card for the mailing was qualified in the
21 membership of Who's Who; is that correct?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And would I be correct in stating that that 24 four-level procedure for screening the qualifications of 25 individuals was in existence at the time that Frank Martin
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4111 Benjamin-cross/Nelson
1 returned to Who's Who Worldwide in November of 1994?
2 A Yes.
3 Q You had mentioned -- I am going to change the subject
4 for a moment -- the Hilton Head conference, which in fact
5 did not take place. And -- do you recall that testimony?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And you had indicated there had been a meeting in
8 which the sales staff was apprised that Hilton had had --
9 Hilton Head had been cancelled; is that correct, that you
10 attended?
11 A That --
12 Q The meeting that the sales staff had been apprised
13 that the Hilton Head conference had in fact been
14 cancelled; is that correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And I believe it was your testimony that to the best
17 of your recollection that meeting occurred either in
18 August or September 1994; is that right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And am I correct that at that point in time, August
21 or September 1994, Mr. Martin had not yet returned to
22 Who's Who Worldwide?
23 A That's correct. 24 Q So, obviously he wasn't in attendance at that 25 meeting?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4112 Benjamin-c
ross/Nelson
1 A That's right.
2 Q Is that right?
3 A Yes, that's correct.
4 Q Now, on the date that the search warrant was executed
5 at Who's Who Worldwide, you were not arrested on that day;
6 is that right?
7 A No, I was not.
8 Q And there were quite a number of employees, however
9 who were arrested after that; is that right?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Now, you had been employed at Who's Who Worldwide
12 from I guess September 1992, through the day the search
13 warrant was executed; is that right?
14 A That's right.
15 Q You and Mr. Martin had overlapped in employment for
16 maybe a five or six month period of time over that three
17 year period; is that right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q As you see Mr. Martin is presently here on trial; is
20 that correct?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q And you were aware of the fact -- am I correct,
that
23 the mailing -- withdrawn -- the solicitation letters 24 contained in it the statement that the person was 25 nominated; is that right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4113 Benjamin-cross/Nelson
1 A Yes.
2 Q And the sales staff had absolutely no contact with
3 the solicitation letters, and based upon your prior
4 testimony would not have been in a position to have seen
5 those solicitation letters; is that right?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q You were aware of the fact that mailing lists were
8 utilized, since you were primarily responsible for the
9 acquisition of those mailing lists?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Is that right?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q As it relates to the mailing list, the sales staff
14 had no control of the selection process or the acquisition
15 of the lists; is that right?
16 A That's right.
17 Q So, Mr. Martin would not have been aware of either
18 the use of the mailing list or the contents of the
19 solicitation letter; is that correct?
20 A Not unless Mr. Gordon informed him of it.
21 Q Would I be correct in stating, and I believe you
22 testified earlier, that as you sit here today, you feel
23 that you have in no way, shape or form committed any sort 24 of a crime during your employment at Who's Who Worldwide? 25 A That's correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4114 Benjamin-cross/Nelson
1 Q Would I be correct in stating that in no way, shape
2 or form, do you feel that you deceived any person, or
3 intended to deceive any person by your actions, conduct or
4 omissions during the course of your employment in Who's
5 Who Worldwide?
6 A That's correct.
7 MR. NELSON: Thank
you.
8 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we are going to
9 take a ten-minute recess. Please do not discuss the case,
10 and keep an open mind. Please recess yourselves.
11 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the
12 courtroom.)
13
14 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.)
15
16 THE CLERK: Jury entering.
17 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the
18 courtroom.)
19 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the
20 jury.
21 Anyone else?
22 MR. JENKS: Yes, your Honor.
23 THE COURT: Go ahead. 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4115 Benjamin-cross/Jenks
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. JENKS:
3 Q Ms. Benjamin, my name is Mr. Jenks. I have a few
4 questions for you.
5 A Okay.
6 Q The company you worked in, Who's Who, you worked in
7 the La
ke Success office; is that correct?
8 A Yes, that's correct.
9 Q And you would be familiar with the physical layout of
10 the Lake Success office, am I correct?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Including where Mr. Gordon's office was, your office
13 was, the salespeople and so forth; is that right?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And how about the Sterling Who's Who offices, would
16 you be familiar with those offices?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Now, would it be fair to say that these offices
19 weren't in the basement somewhere, were they?
20 A No.
21 Q And it wasn't people huddled around one little
22 telephone cold calling people during the day, was it?
23 A Not at all, not at all. 24 Q Let me show you what has been marked as Defendant's 25 Exhibit AC in evidence, and see if you can identify for
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4116 Benjamin
-cross/Jenks
1 the members of the jury certain -- if you can narrate the
2 rooms and who sat where and where the salespeople were.
3 A Yes.
4 MR. JENKS: Your Honor, I am going to play what
5 has been marked as Defendant's Exhibit AC in evidence,
6 which the government has stipulated as being in evidence;
7 is that correct, Mr. White?
8 THE COURT: Is it previously offered?
9 MR. WHITE: We have not previously offered it.
10 MR. JENKS: Mr. Dunn marked the tapes. I will
11 mark AC and AD in evidence at this time, your Honor.
12 THE COURT: Any objection?
13 MR. WHITE: No, your Honor.
14 Defendant's Exhibits AC, Abel Charley, and AD, Abel Dog in
15 evidence.
16 (Defendant's Exhibit AC received in evidence.)
17 (Defendant's Exhibit AD received in evidence.)
18 Q Can you see that from where you are sitting?
19 A I believe so.
20 MR. TR
ABULUS: Your Honor, if I may for the
21 record, AC indicates it is for Who's Who Worldwide, and AD
22 indicates it is for Sterling Who's Who, so we can keep
23 track of what is what. 24 Q All right, perhaps you can show the members of the 25 jury what it is we are actually filming now.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4117 Benjamin-cross/Jenks
1 (Videotape is played.)
2 A This is the administration office.
3 THE COURT: When you say the administration
4 office, that's the office that Liz Sautter was the head
5 of?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q And that is --
8 A Right outside Liz' office. That's originally where
9 my assistants sat. One desk was empty for a period of
10 time. And Bruce's office, that would be that was the
11 MIS's person's office.
12 This here would be the bookkeeping office.
13 Q Wh
o ran the bookkeeping office?
14 A Originally Liz was doing the bookkeeping and than
15 Marie what Gaspar was brought on board.
16 Q Maria, all right.
17 A That was Tara's office.
18 That was -- this is the area where the
19 salespeople sat. These were the group leader offices in
20 front of the rows.
21 Q They were partitions by cubicle?
22 A Yes, uh-huh.
23 Q I see. 24 Were those on the other side of the 25 administration office and Mr. Gordon's office?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4118 Benjamin-cross/Jenks
1 A Yes. It was behind the door. There was a hallway
2 were the two secretaries sat, and then a doorway. Then
3 there was one area there and one all the way down the
4 other end.
5 Q I take it each salesperson would sit in one of these
6 cubicles?
7 A Yes.
8 Q When t
he company was up and functioning prior to
9 November 30th, 1995, before the raid -- I am sorry, March,
10 before the raid, were each of those cubicles filled with
11 salespeople?
12 A I would presume so. But I wouldn't know first-hand
13 if they were or not.
14 Q Okay.
15 How many people would you say, Ms. Benjamin,
16 worked all told, in March of 1995, at this Lake Success
17 business?
18 A Off the top of my head, about 45, 50.
19 Q And at the Sterling Who's Who business?
20 A About the same amount, a little less maybe.
21 THE COURT: I can't hear you. You have to keep
22 your voice up.
23 THE WITNESS: I am sorry, approximately 100 24 people. 25 Q Continue.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4119 Benjamin-cross/Jenks
1 A This is still the same side of the office. There is
2 a second ha
lf of the office.
3 This is a little lunchroom.
4 This was an area used for storage.
5 THE COURT: I think it is not going to work
6 unless you move it out and we can hear her.
7 THE WITNESS: I can see.
8 THE COURT: Ms. Benjamin, we have to hear every
9 word you say, and every word is being recorded. In order
10 for the reporter to hear it and for me, and everybody else
11 in the courtroom to hear it, you have to speak up. You
12 have a low voice. So why don't you sit and move that a
13 little bit to the left so she can see it.
14 MR. JENKS: Yes, your Honor.
15 THE COURT: And she can use the microphone.
16 Then the jury will not see it. Move it out
17 toward the door more.
18 MR. TRABULUS: This way.
19 JUROR NO. 4: Push it back, push it back,
20 straight back.
21 THE COURT: She can't see that.
22 Push it back more.
23 (Where
upon, at this time there was a pause in the 24 proceedings.) 25 THE COURT: Now you have it.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4120 Benjamin-cross/Jenks
1 (Videotape is continued.)
2 THE WITNESS: I am pretty sure this is the
3 storeroom. This is the additional section we had taken
4 now.
5 Q That's the second half of the office, right?
6 A The second half of the office, yes.
7 Q All right.
8 A That is the entry foyer, where there were two
9 receptionists posted at the desk to the left.
10 THE COURT: Would you just hold it a minute?
11 MR. JENKS: Yes, your Honor.
12 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
13 proceedings.)
14 THE COURT: You can proceed.
15 MR. JENKS: Your Honor, we have to rewind it to
16 the beginning, since it was queued up to another location
17 on the tape.
18 THE COURT: Go ahead.
19 MR. JENKS: It will just take one minute.
20 (Tape is played.)
21 Q Try to start from here?
22 A That's the hallway from outside the office in Lake
23 Success. That's the entrance way to Who's Who Worldwide. 24 This is the reception desk. To the left and to 25 the right are doors going into both sections of the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4121 Benjamin-cross/Jenks
1 office.
2 Q Were there conference rooms available here for member
3 use at the Lake Success office or only the Sterling
4 location?
5 A Predominantly Sterling, because of the size, the
6 space. We were limited for space here.
7 Q If a member needed to use a conference room, they
8 were able to use it?
9 A They were able to use it.
10 Q And that was an additional benefit as well; is that
11 ri
ght?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And tell us what is here?
14 A This is coming into the area behind the reception.
15 The camera is a little shaky. It is taking a moment to
16 get my bearings.
17 This is the new section of the office here. And
18 those are the cubicles that the salespeople sat in on that
19 side of the office.
20 Q There were two sides to the office that the
21 salespeople sat in?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And the ones we saw previously? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And these?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4122 Benjamin-cross/Jenks
1 A Yes.
2 Q And these, correct?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And this is a brand-new installation.
5 A Yes.
6 Q This is put in right prior to the raid on March 30th,
7 1995; is that correct?
8 A A few months prior, yes.
9 Q Those little signs you saw, B-
1 and B-2, those are
10 not signs the corporation put up, they are signs that the
11 government put up; is that correct?
12 A They were not signs that I had ever seen before.
13 Q Specifically that sign, B-4.
14 A Specifically, that was not a corporate sign.
15 Q All right.
16 Now, at the time of this filming, do you know
17 whether or not these cubicles were occupied by
18 salespeople?
19 A I presume they were.
20 MR. DUNN: Objection, your Honor, to presume.
21 THE COURT: Were you there when this film was
22 taken?
23 THE WITNESS: No, I was in the New York office 24 that day. 25 THE COURT: So, you don't know who was there at
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4123 Benjamin-cross/Jenks
1 the time?
2 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
3 THE COURT: Okay.
4 I don't see any people in the booths
myself.
5 JUROR NO. 4: Me, too.
6 Q What I meant, ma'am, is were they actually being
7 utilized on a daily basis?
8 A Yes.
9 Q They were?
10 A Yes, yes.
11 That was exactly in front of the sales area, some
12 sinks and storage area, and a copy machine.
13 Q And that is --
14 A That is a corner. It is a glass unit, it is turned
15 around, a glass mirrored unit in the corner for decorative
16 purposes.
17 Q Just let us know if we come back to the portion of
18 the tape that we have already seen, okay?
19 A Okay.
20 This was Suzanne Konopka's office, on the same
21 side as mine. I believe it was Suzanne or Maggie. I am
22 trying to get my bearings here.
23 Q Suzanne and Maggie both worked for you; is that 24 right? 25 A That is correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4124
Benjamin-cross/Jenks
1 That looks like it was my office, which was right
2 next door -- it was my office, right next door to Susan's.
3 Q That is where you sat, Ms. Benjamin?
4 A That's correct.
5 That is a storage room.
6 Q Were the registries actually shipped from the Lake
7 Success location?
8 A The original fulfillment was done through the book
9 bindery. On occasion, if people sent -- did their final
10 payment later, than some of them would be sent out from
11 the Lake Success location.
12 Q Meaning according to the terms of the split billing?
13 A Yes.
14 That looks like it was Maggie Swendseid's
15 office. But she was now at this point based in Manhattan
16 full time.
17 Q The gentlemen of those pictures are not employees of
18 Who's Who Worldwide, are they?
19 A No, they are not.
20 That is a hallway leading from that
area to
21 Mr. Gordon's office, which has the glass block. On the
22 left, the black doorway is the conference room. And
23 straight ahead is the administrative offices. 24 That's the conference room in Lake Success. 25 This is Mr. Gordon's office.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4125 Benjamin-cross/Jenks
1 Q Those are not employees of Who's Who Worldwide, are
2 they?
3 A No, they are not, they are not.
4 Those are sample plaques.
5 Q That were in Mr. Gordon's office?
6 A That were in Mr. Gordon's office.
7 Q Are those a representation or a representative sample
8 of all the plaques that Who's Who manufactured?
9 A Yes.
10 Q By the way, do you know what happened to all the
11 furniture in that office?
12 A No. I have no idea.
13 That is the entryway to the administration. That
14 is
a Dutch door. That was usually kept closed. The top
15 half was open, but people were not supposed to be in and
16 out of administration. That's the reason for that door.
17 MR. NEVILLE: I am sorry, what was the last
18 comment?
19 THE WITNESS: People were not allowed to traipse
20 in and out of administration, so that door was usually
21 kept closed.
22 Q Was administration where the administrative ballots
23 were held? Is that where they would be kept? 24 A The lead cards and things were stored in there, I 25 believe.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4126 Benjamin-cross/Jenks
1 Q As well as the nomination ballots; is that correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And you said the lead cards were stored in binders;
4 is that right?
5 A No, no, no.
6 Q They were given to representatives, to the
7 salespeople. Bu
t after they came back to administration,
8 did they get put back into binders?
9 A No. They were filed.
10 Q Okay.
11 A Okay.
12 Q In file cabinets?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And how about the nomination ballots, were they filed
15 in file cabinets as well?
16 A I don't know.
17 That's the back end of the administration office.
18 Q Have we gone through the whole office at this point?
19 A Pretty much, yes.
20 MR. JENKS: All right, I will stop the tape
21 here.
22 (Videotape is stopped.)
23 Q You are familiar with the layout of Sterling Who's 24 Who as well; am I correct? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4127 Benjamin-cross/Jenks
1 MR. JENKS: I will ask the government to
2 stipulate that Defendant's Exhibit AC and AD in evidence
3 were made on March 30th, 1995.
4 MR. WHITE: You are asking me?
5 Yes, that's correct.
6 MR. JENKS: And I will play for the record,
7 Government's Exhibit AD.
8 Q Would you be kind enough to do the same thing for us.
9 (Videotape is played.)
10 THE WITNESS: That is the entranceway as you came
11 off the floor at Sterling Who's Who, the Lexington Avenue
12 location.
13 That was a mirrored wall with the emblem and the
14 seating area.
15 Q You had offered the use of this office for members to
16 use if they needed to have conferences or meetings in
17 Manhattan; is that right?
18 A That is correct.
19 Q And members would also have the availability of a
20 telephone and a fax machine if needed?
21 A Yes.
22 Those -- as the elevators opened right on to the
23 entrance there, then you walk through the two doors, and 24 that was the reception area. 25 Q Do
you know what happened with all that artwork on
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4128 Benjamin-cross/Jenks
1 the area there?
2 A I have no idea.
3 This is still the reception desk. That's a
4 seating area, waiting area.
5 You can see, if my memory serves me correctly,
6 there were two or three small conference rooms right there
7 with telephones.
8 Q Right in the front as you walk in the office?
9 A Right. If a member was in the office and wanted to
10 avail themselves for an hour or so, they were right there.
11 Those are two doors that go right back to -- now
12 there is a section and a hallway.
13 You are looking down the hallway. I believe you
14 are looking down the hallway toward the outside offices,
15 if I am correct.
16 Q Did you have an office in the Sterling Who's Who
17 office in Manhattan?
18 A I had an office available to me regularly.
19 Q How often would you go in there, Ms. Benjamin?
20 A I was in there -- well, right before the raid I was
21 in there more frequently because the magazine was closing
22 at that point.
23 Those are the perimeter offices. I believe now 24 we are looking at -- I am sorry, that's Mr. Gordon's 25 office at Sterling.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4129 Benjamin-cross/Jenks
1 To the left there was a seating area that we are
2 looking at now.
3 That's the entranceway in the doorway, in and out
4 of Mr. Gordon's office.
5 Q Is that a sign on the door? That's not a corporate
6 sign, is it?
7 A No.
8 This is an office in the administrative office of
9 Sterling.
10 I am sorry, I apologize. That's a small
11 conference room that is adjacent to
Mr. Gordon's office.
12 That is the secretarial area that is outside
13 Mr. Gordon's office.
14 That's the large conference room.
15 Q Was that conference room available for member use?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Would a member be able to bring eight or ten people
18 to have a meeting there on given notice to Sterling Who's
19 Who?
20 A Yes.
21 Q How much notice would you have to give to use that
22 conference room?
23 A We usually asked 24 to 48 hours. But if it was short 24 notice and it was available, I am sure we would have 25 accommodated them.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4130 Benjamin-cross/Jenks
1 This is an administrative office in the rear of
2 the administration department at Sterling.
3 That's the administration -- the administrative
4 area at Sterling.
5 Q Is it fair to say that
the space at Sterling was
6 smaller than the space at Lake Success?
7 A No.
8 Q It was the other way around?
9 A Yes.
10 Q All right.
11 A I believe that is Maggie Swendseid's office.
12 Again, these were perimeter offices.
13 Now, I am not sure, but I believe that's the
14 office that I used when I was at Sterling.
15 I believe that was Margaret Basalone, the office
16 manager at Sterling.
17 That is just a storage area, a copy area, just
18 the copy area.
19 That was the copy area in the administrative
20 end.
21 Q Would the sales offices or -- were there sales
22 offices or sales cubicles on the other side of this
23 office? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Would you have any idea how much money is spent on
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4131 Benjamin-cross/Jenks
1 mailing out n
omination ballots and literature and cards,
2 etcetera, in a given year?
3 A Not off the top of my head, I wouldn't have those
4 figures.
5 Q Do you know who would?
6 A The exact amounts or approximate?
7 Q Well, besides Mr. Gordon, do you know who else in the
8 company would have those numbers?
9 A I guess Maria Gaspar, or someone involved in the
10 accounting end.
11 Again, I think that was Maggie Swendseid's
12 office.
13 Q Okay.
14 Let me ask you this now: Have we seen most of
15 the offices at Sterling Who's Who?
16 A Yes, other than the sales room and the lunchroom.
17 Q The sales sections, I take it was the same as the
18 sales section at Lake Success, cubicles?
19 A Yes.
20 Q The same way, partitions?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And there was a lunchroom that was similar to the one
23 at Lake Success? 24 A Yes.
25 MR. JENKS: Thank you. I will stop the tape.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4132 Benjamin-cross/Jenks
1 (Videotape is stopped.)
2 Q A few more questions, Ms. Benjamin.
3 You believed there was nothing wrong with sending
4 a person a solicitation from a mailing list, did you?
5 A No.
6 Q You believed there was nothing wrong with sending a
7 person a solicitation from a selected mailing list, did
8 you?
9 A No.
10 Q In fact, you believed there was nothing wrong with
11 sending a person a solicitation from a mailing list that
12 had used the word "nominated" in it; is that correct?
13 A I had a question about it from time to time.
14 Q Right, but it was really an issue of semantics? Am I
15 correct? Is that a fair statement?
16 A That's what I believed.
17 Q You didn't believe you were inten
ding to deceive
18 anyone by sending them a letter mentioning the words
19 "nominated" did you?
20 A No.
21 Q Because you saw Marquis Who's Who use the word
22 "nominated"?
23 A Yes. 24 Q Are you familiar with an association called the 25 National Association of Female Executives?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4133 Benjamin-cross/Jenks
1 A Yes.
2 Q While you were at Who's Who did you look -- do an
3 investigation sent to potential female executives sent by
4 that National Association?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Is it fair to say that that National Association of
7 female executives was a membership organization?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Did they use the word "nominated" also?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Marquis Who's Who used the word "nominated"?
12 A I never seen a letter from -- received a letter from
13 them, but what I have seen, yes.
14 Q You saw today Defendant's Exhibit Z in evidence, you
15 saw Mr. Schoer showing you this letter or Mr. Trabulus?
16 A Yes.
17 Q This is on Marquis Who's Who in America stationery?
18 A Yes.
19 Q McMillan directory division?
20 A Yes.
21 Q It mentioned the words "nominated", you have been
22 nominated, is that correct?
23 A Yes. 24 Q Is it fair to say you are a person familiar with the 25 Who's Who concept?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4134 Benjamin-cross/Jenks
1 A Yes.
2 Q You worked in it, you basically created a lot of the
3 things that happened at Who's Who along with Mr. Gordon;
4 is that correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q So to speak you are the number two person?
7 A I don't know the pecking order.
8 Q But if not the number three, the n
umber two person;
9 is that correct?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And is it fair to say that it is an industry wide
12 practice in Who's Who, to mention in the letter that a
13 person has been nominated?
14 A I don't know if I am in a position to answer that.
15 Q But you have seen it before?
16 A Yes.
17 Q In other membership organizations?
18 A Yes.
19 MR. JENKS: One more question, Judge.
20 Q You talked about the B balance; is that correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q The B balance is the extra $97 that a member would
23 have to pay at a subsequent date; is that correct? 24 A Yes. 25 Q It is part of the pitch, was it not, that a member
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4135 Benjamin-cross/Jenks
1 would be told they have to pay $97 at a later date when
2 the Registry finished publication; is that correct?
3 A They were supposed to be told that, yes.
4 Q And why was it -- can you tell the jury why it was
5 that that $97 was held back until the publication of the
6 registry?
7 A It was my understanding that because of mail order
8 laws you have to fulfill any kind of a credit card, or any
9 type of mail order within a specified period of time,
10 which is, I don't think, any longer than like 90 days.
11 Q But it wasn't designed to scam or to cheat a
12 potential member out of money, was it?
13 A No.
14 Q It was a mail order rule -- withdrawn.
15 You believed it to be a mail order rule that you
16 couldn't charge until you were ready to ship almost?
17 A That's correct.
18 MR. JENKS: Thank you. I have nothing further,
19 Judge.
20 Thank you, Ms. Benjamin.
21
22 CROSS-EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. LEE: 24 Q Good afternoon.
25 A Good afternoon.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4136 Benjamin-cross/Lee
1 Q I am Winston Lee. I represent Laura Weitz. You know
2 her, correct?
3 A Yes.
4 Q You just mentioned that Who's Who was a membership
5 organization. Is that what you would call Who's Who, a
6 membership organization?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And would I be correct in?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Would I be correct in stating that to your knowledge,
11 not all Who's Who type organizations were membership
12 organizations; is that right?
13 A That's correct.
14 Q And the distinction is that a membership organization
15 is one where after the member had purchased the
16 membership, the organization would thereafter still
17 continue to provide service and benefits; is that correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Whereas another Who's Who type organ
ization, after
20 you purchase your listing, that would basically be the
21 end, and that would be all you could get for your
22 membership fees? Is that correct? That's the distinction
23 between a membership versus non-membership organization? 24 A I would say that would be the distinction. 25 Q And it was your belief at Who's Who, one of the very
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4137 Benjamin-cross/Lee
1 valuable characteristics of it is that it was a
2 membership, and offered these continuing services to its
3 members; is that correct?
4 A That is correct.
5 Q As far as the Tribute Magazine is concerned do you
6 recall occasions when Laura Weitz would come to you with a
7 member whom she was recommending, whom she thought would
8 be an excellent candidate to profile or somehow include in
9 Tribute?
10 A Abs
olutely.
11 Q You say that enthusiastically, she was enthusiastic?
12 A Absolutely so.
13 Q Would you say she shared your belief that this
14 magazine was a very valuable benefit that Who's Who was
15 offering to its members?
16 A I think everyone felt that way.
17 Q And she, as far as you know, she would not receive
18 any extra compensation, or anything for coming to you and
19 making these recommendations; is that correct?
20 A Correct.
21 Q And would you agree that she went out of her way to
22 try to -- in a genuine effort, to try to help a member to
23 get more benefit from their membership? She went out of 24 her way to try to recommend people she felt deserving to 25 be highlighted in the Tribute Magazine; is that right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4138 Benjamin-cross/Lee
1 A Yes.
2 Q And
I assume while she is utilizing her time to come
3 and make these recommendations, she took away from her
4 time to try to perhaps make -- speak to people and perhaps
5 earn more of a living for herself; would that be a fair
6 statement?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And now, just, if it wasn't clear before, whenever a
9 member would avail him or herself of these benefits,
10 perhaps a credit card or something the salesperson would
11 not receive any sort of compensation for that?
12 A I don't believe they did.
13 Q And over the years that you have known Laura Weitz,
14 did you come to an opinion as to the way that she
15 performed her duties on the job?
16 A She was very diligent and professional in my opinion.
17 Q She was professional in all appearances from your
18 interactions with her?
19 A Very much so.
20 Q Was there ever any occasion that she did or said
21 anything that indicated to you that there was a belief on
22 her part that she was doing anything but offering a
23 valuable service and product to the members that she dealt 24 with? 25 A I didn't have occasion to be there when she was
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4139 Benjamin-cross/Lee
1 actually speaking to the members. All I can say is on a
2 professional level, my interactions with her were always
3 very professional. I had a lot of respect for Laura.
4 Q To your knowledge, can you point to anything she ever
5 said or anything she ever did that indicated a belief on
6 her part that she was misleading or deceiving people?
7 A No.
8 Q That anything you can point to that she heard -- she
9 did or said that would indicate a belief that she was
10 defrauding people and selling them a worthless product?
11
Anything?
12 A No.
13 MR. LEE: I have no further questions.
14
15 CROSS-EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. GEDULDIG:
17 Q Ms. Benjamin, you testified on direct examination, I
18 think, when Mr. White was asking you some questions, about
19 a sales meeting that was held after the cancellation of
20 the Hilton Head seminar. Can you recall that?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Let me also ask you, do you recall taking part in an
23 interview with Mr. White and perhaps some other people by 24 January 11th, 1996? 25 A I am not terrific with dates. If you give me a
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4140 Benjamin-cross/Geduldig
1 location or --
2 Q Let me show you something.
3 This is Government Exhibit 7-D, I think.
4 (Handed to the witness.)
5 Q If you would, would you look at what I handed up
6 there.
7 Does that refresh your recollection that January
8 11th, 1996, may have been a date in which you took part in
9 an interview with Mr. White?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Okay.
12 During the course of that interview, did you
13 explain to Mr. White about the seminar that had been
14 planned for Vietnam and Hong Kong?
15 A I believe I did.
16 Q And during the course of that interview, you also
17 spoke to him about the seminar that had been planned for
18 the conference that had been planned for Hilton Head; is
19 that right?
20 A I believe I did, yes.
21 Q And you also told him that during the course of that
22 interview during the -- about the sales meeting that took
23 place after the Hilton Head conference had been 24 suspended -- had been cancelled? 25 A I believe I did.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4141
Benjamin-cross/Geduldig
1 Q And during the course of explaining to him that a
2 sales meeting was held, and salespeople were told that the
3 Hilton head conference had been cancelled, you also gave
4 him the names of people who were present for that meeting?
5 A I may have, yes.
6 Q Let me show you a document, and see if this refreshes
7 your recollection.
8 (Handed to the witness.)
9 Q Just read that to yourself, if you would.
10 A Uh-huh.
11 Q Does that refresh your recollection that you told him
12 about the meeting and gave him names of people who might
13 have attended that meeting?
14 A I don't know if this relates to that. It is
15 somebody's notes.
16 Q Yes, it is.
17 Let me ask you this question: Do you have any
18 recollection at that meeting, at that sales meeting that
19 took place after the cancellation of the Hilton Hea
d
20 seminar -- would I be correct in saying that Annette Haley
21 was not present for that meeting?
22 A I don't believe -- I don't remember if she was or she
23 wasn't. 24 Q Do you recall if there were any -- let me ask you if 25 the notes that you have in front of you appear to reflect
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4142 Benjamin-cross/Geduldig
1 the interview that you had with Mr. White on January 11th,
2 1996?
3 A It is kind of hard to read these notes.
4 May I ask, am I on the right page?
5 Q The second page on the bottom.
6 THE COURT: The question is: By looking at those
7 notes can you answer these questions? In other words,
8 those notes are intended to refresh your recollection.
9 THE WITNESS: But the notes --
10 THE COURT: Excuse me. Listen to me.
11 THE WITNESS: Okay.
12 THE COUR
T: They are intended to refresh your
13 recollection. If they don't, say so.
14 THE WITNESS: The only thing I am questioning is
15 that these notes don't reflect --
16 THE COURT: They may be a menu for the latest
17 restaurant, with the salad that the New York Times had in
18 its paper yesterday. I don't care what they are, but
19 looking at that, does that refresh your recollection as to
20 this interview that counsel is talking about? Yes or no?
21 THE WITNESS: I remember having the interview.
22 And I do remember --
23 THE COURT: Listen to me, will you? If you don't 24 understand what I am saying, tell me. 25 Looking at those notes, does that refresh your
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4143 Benjamin-cross/Geduldig
1 recollection about an interview you had with Mr. White?
2 Yes or no?
3 THE WITNESS: No.
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 THE WITNESS: The notes are difficult to read.
6 THE COURT: That's all.
7 Counsel wants to ask you some questions about
8 what took place at the interview.
9 THE WITNESS: Okay.
10 THE COURT: He wants you to look at that and see
11 if it refreshes your recollection as to what took place at
12 the interview.
13 THE WITNESS: I am sorry, I misunderstood. I
14 thought he was referring for me to read the bottom of the
15 page and answer based on that. I didn't understand what
16 the question was. I apologize.
17 THE COURT: That's okay.
18 Q Let me see if I can rephrase it --
19 THE COURT: We spent ten minutes on this
20 already. And maybe we can go for more.
21 Q Would I be correct in saying you had an interview
22 with Mr. White?
23 A Yes, and Biegelman. 24 Q And there was a fellow named Agostino? 25 A
Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4144 Benjamin-cross/Geduldig
1 Q Your attorney?
2 A He represented the company I worked for.
3 THE COURT: Is that A G O S T I N O?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes.
5 Q He was there to assist you about a number of things
6 in that interview?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And you spoke about a number of things at the
9 interview?
10 A Yes.
11 Q One of the things you spoke about was the sales
12 meeting that took place after the cancellation of the
13 Hilton Head conference?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And my question to you is: Am I not correct in
16 saying that when you told Mr. White of the people who were
17 present for that sales meeting, you did not say to him
18 that Annette Haley was present for the meeting?
19 A I don't recall if I said she was present or she
20 wasn't.
21 Q Okay.
22 A I don't remember specifics.
23 Q As you sit here now, you recall that sales meeting? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Can you tell us whether or not Annette Haley was
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4145 Benjamin-cross/Geduldig
1 present for that meeting?
2 A I don't recall. I don't recall who was present at
3 that meeting.
4 Q Okay.
5 Now, you said it was a sales meeting, and I
6 believe you testified on direct that it was at some point
7 in time as many as 12 to 15 people at the meeting?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And I believe you also testified at some point today
10 that there may have been as many as 45 people or 50 people
11 working at the Lake Success office; is that correct?
12 A Yes, that's correct.
13 Q And Ms. Haley worked at the Lake Success office?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And the major por
tion of the people who worked in the
16 Lake Success office were in the sales office; is that
17 right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q So, of the 45 or 50 people who worked at Lake Success
20 at the time that this sales meeting was held, what was the
21 number -- how many people worked in the sales office of
22 that 45 or 50 people, approximately?
23 A 35, 40. 24 Q So, if there was a meeting held of salespeople 25 regarding the cancellation of the Hilton Head office, you
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4146 Benjamin-cross/Geduldig
1 said there were ten or fifteen people present; is that
2 right?
3 A Yes.
4 Q So, there are as many as 20 or 25 people from the
5 sales office who did not take place in that sales meeting
6 being advised that Hilton Head was cancelled; is that
7 right?
8 A I would say that would b
e correct.
9 Q Am I correct in saying that you can't recall today,
10 and those notes don't help you to recall as to whether or
11 not Annette Haley was there or not?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q Now, the Vietnam conference was also -- withdrawn.
14 No member of Who's Who Worldwide went on that
15 Vietnam/Hong Kong seminar; is that right?
16 A To what my knowledge is, no.
17 Q All right.
18 Was there ever a sales meeting held to advise the
19 salespeople that that seminar had not been successful?
20 A I don't know.
21 Q Did there ever come a point in time that you told
22 Mr. White -- withdrawn.
23 At this interview that you had with Mr. White 24 when Mr. Agostino was present, did you also have a 25 conversation, or did you tell him about two salesmen who
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4147 Benjamin-cross/Ge
duldig
1 worked at Lake Success named Maxes and Graham?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And did there come a certain point in time you told
4 Mr. White that Maxes and Graham to your knowledge lied on
5 the phone during their pitches?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Is that accurate?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Now, you already testified that as you sit here today
10 you don't feel that you committed any crimes while working
11 at Who's Who Worldwide; is that right?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And you were second in command; is that right? You
14 were one of the top management people at Worldwide, at
15 Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And it is fair to say that you had more knowledge
18 about the operation of Who's Who Worldwide than just about
19 anybody else, other than Mr. Gordon?
20 A Certain aspects of it, yes.
21 Q You certainly had more knowledge about the
operation
22 of Who's Who Worldwide than Annette Haley did; isn't that
23 right? 24 A Absolutely. 25 MR. GEDULDIG: I have no further questions,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4148 Benjamin-cross/Geduldig
1 Judge.
2
3 CROSS-EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. NEVILLE:
5 Q Hello, Ms. Benjamin. I am Jim Neville. I represent
6 Scott Michaelson. Do you know Scott?
7 A I do. I have not seen him in a while, but, yes, I
8 do.
9 Q Ms. Benjamin, I am going to hand you what is marked
10 as Defendant's Exhibit A-6. I am showing it to
11 Mr. White.
12 THE COURT: Abel 6?
13 MR. NEVILLE: My mistake, AG.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 (Handed to the witness.)
16 Q It is a photograph, right?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Do you recognize the person in that photograph?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Who is th
at?
21 A Liz Sautter.
22 Q Is that photograph, does it depict Liz Sautter
23 accurately as she looked when you worked with her at Who's 24 Who? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4149 Benjamin-cross/Neville
1 MR. NEVILLE: I offer this, your Honor.
2 THE COURT: Show it to counsel.
3 MR. NEVILLE: I did, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Any objection?
5 MR. WHITE: I am not sure it is relevant, but I
6 would not object, your Honor.
7 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit AG, Abel George,
8 in evidence.
9 (Defendant's Exhibit AG received in evidence.)
10 MR. NEVILLE: May I let the jury see it, your
11 Honor?
12 THE COURT: Surely.
13 (Whereupon, the exhibit/exhibits were published
14 to the jury.)
15 Q Ms. Benjamin, you said that Liz Sautter was the
16 office manager in Lake Succ
ess?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And she knew the ins and outs of the administrative
19 office?
20 A Yes.
21 Q The nuts and bolts of the business?
22 A Yes.
23 Q She had full knowledge of the procedures of the 24 mailings that went out? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4150 Benjamin-cross/Neville
1 Q She knew about the mailing list, right?
2 A Yes.
3 Q She knew more about this business than even you did,
4 didn't she?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Did Scott Michaelson have anything to do with the
7 mailings?
8 A No.
9 Q Did any of the salespeople have anything to do with
10 the mailings?
11 A No.
12 Q Do you understand that the salespeople here are
13 charged with conspiracy to commit mail fraud?
14 A I had no idea what they were charged with at all.
15 Q You
realize this is a criminal trial?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Now, Liz Sautter had a company car that she used?
18 A Yes.
19 Q She was one of two or three people who had keys to
20 the office?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And Liz Sautter moved with grace and ease throughout
23 the entire office, the administration, the sales area, 24 everywhere, right? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4151 Benjamin-cross/Neville
1 Q Unlike the salespeople, who would not be able to
2 tread into that administrative room through the black
3 door, what did you call it, a Dutch door?
4 A Yes, it was a Dutch door.
5 Q Sometimes that top half would be open of that Dutch
6 door, but the bottom would be closed, making it very clear
7 that the salespeople were not to go in there; is that
8 right?
9 A That's right.
10 Q
But Liz Sautter went in there, right?
11 A That was her office.
12 Q Did Liz Sautter, as far as you know, did she have any
13 knowledge of these membership ballots and, and where they
14 were kept and all that stuff?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Do you think that Liz Sautter maybe had a key to the
17 locked files where those membership ballots were kept?
18 A Yes, she did.
19 Q As far as you know did any of the salespeople ever
20 have access to any of those lead cards or nomination
21 ballots or any of the other things that were discussed?
22 A Not unless they were handed them by Mr. Gordon or the
23 group leaders. 24 Q And Liz Sautter would be one of the people who would 25 hand out these lead cards and nomination ballots to the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4152 Benjamin-cross/Neville
1 group leaders; is that right?
2 A That's right.
3 Q And even the group leaders were not allowed to go
4 into the administrative offices; is that right?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q I think you even said that Liz Sautter had something
7 to do with the bookkeeping before Maria Gaspar came on
8 board?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Before I showed you that picture of Liz Sautter, did
11 you already have, or could you say you already had an
12 image in your mind of what she looked like?
13 A Yes.
14 Q You knew her pretty well?
15 A I saw her everyday.
16 Q You worked with her?
17 A Yes.
18 Q I am not suggesting you are close friend, but you saw
19 her everyday?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Do you see her anywhere in this courtroom?
22 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
23 proceedings.) 24 A No. 25 Q Were you familiar with different salespeople at the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4153 Benjamin-cross/Neville
1 business? In general did you kind of know who they were?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Have you ever heard of Robert Stanley?
4 A No.
5 Q How about Sam Christopher?
6 A It doesn't ring a bell.
7 Q Linda May?
8 A That sounds familiar.
9 Q Paul Ware?
10 A No.
11 Q How about Robert Bullock, B U L L O C K?
12 A That doesn't ring a bell either.
13 Q Michael Cain, C A I N?
14 A I am not 100 percent sure about that one.
15 Q How about Scott Matthews?
16 A Excuse me, you are asking me about people at
17 Worldwide?
18 Q I am asking you if you knew who these people were.
19 They are salespeople and if you knew anything about it.
20 A No.
21 Q Greg Miller?
22 A That doesn't ring a bell either.
23 Q How about Joe Par
ks? 24 A That rings a bell. 25 Q What kind of bell does that ring?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4154 Benjamin-cross/Neville
1 A He was a salesperson there.
2 Q How about Kenneth McCarthy?
3 A Yes.
4 Q How about Jill Barnes?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And last but not least, Carl Roper?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Now, Sue Mantell was a salesperson at Who's Who
9 Worldwide; is that right?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And please correct me if I am wrong, but she was on
12 one occasion -- on one occasion she was fired, or there
13 was a threat to fire her for having lied, do you know
14 anything about that?
15 A I don't know the reason, but I know her job was
16 either in jeopardy or she was terminated after a period of
17 time.
18 Q So you weren't present, or you didn't witness when
19 she begged for her jo
b back?
20 A No.
21 Q And was granted that pardon?
22 A No.
23 Q You weren't there for that? 24 A No. 25 Q Okay.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4155 Benjamin-cross/Neville
1 You spoke about Laura Weitz being professional
2 and energetic?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Scott Michaelson was also?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Annette Haley was also?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And probably one of the people who was most energetic
9 about his job was Mr. Rubin; is that right?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q Extremely energetic.
12 Isn't it fair to say that Mr. Rubin was
13 passionate about his job?
14 A He was very passionate about everything he did at
15 work.
16 MR. NEVILLE: Thank you. I have no further
17 questions.
18
19 CROSS-EXAMINATION
20 BY MR. DUNN:
21 Q Good a
fternoon, Ms. Benjamin.
22 A Good afternoon.
23 Q My name is Thomas Dunn. I represent Steve Rubin. 24 I would like to ask you a couple of questions, if 25 I may about your workings with Tribute and some of the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4156 Benjamin-cross/Dunn
1 goals you had for Tribute.
2 Basically you were the person who ran Tribute; is
3 that correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And is it fair to say that at about the time of this
6 raid it was your goal to get advertising for the magazine
7 from Fortune 500 companies; is that fair to say?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And is it fair to say that it was your belief that
10 someone with some sales experience might be used to try to
11 get that advertising for the Tribute Magazine?
12 A Yes, that's correct.
13 Q And did you have any people in mind from the sales
14 f
orce at Who's Who Worldwide to use to obtain that
15 advertisement from Fortune 500?
16 A I remember having a dialogue with Steve Rubin about
17 it because of his enthusiasm.
18 Q So, it would it be fair to say that if the company
19 had continued to -- withdrawn -- withdrawn.
20 Is it fair to say if you had gone that route to
21 get the advertisement from the Fortune 500, that serious
22 consideration would have given to Steve Rubin for that
23 role? 24 A It is a possibility, but we hired an independent rep 25 on that.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4157 Benjamin-cross/Dunn
1 Q You said to Mr. Neville that Mr. Rubin was passionate
2 in his work?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q Is it fair to say he was one of the first ones in to
5 start the workday and one of the last ones out?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And is
it fair to say that often times he spent more
8 time on the phone with potential members than other
9 salespeople?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And would it be fair to say that in the forms that
12 salespeople are given when they take down information
13 during interviews, that Mr. Rubin would put more
14 information down on those forms than was necessary or
15 requested by the supervisory personnel at Who's Who
16 Worldwide?
17 A I would not have cause to see the sales orders, but
18 when he would give me information about people he proposed
19 for Tribute he would give me an extensive amount of
20 information.
21 Q Is it fair to say that it is on a daily basis that
22 Mr. Rubin would come into you with people he would be
23 recommending for Tribute? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Is it fair to say that you attributed that behavior
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4158 Benjamin-cross/Dunn
1 to his enthusiasm about his job?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Is it fair to say that he really believed in Who's
4 Who Worldwide?
5 A 100 percent.
6 Q You would say he really cared about his job?
7 A Yes, he did.
8 Q He cared about the people he was working with?
9 A I believe he did.
10 Q In fact, there were times he would bring you pastries
11 and things like that?
12 A Steve was very magnanimous with things he would do
13 for everyone.
14 Q Now, is it fair to say that because he would come in
15 with these recommendations for people to use in Tribute,
16 it was time away from the phone when he could be calling
17 potential members; is that correct?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q And he received no financial benefit from bringing
20 these people to your attention; is that correct?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q You testified you had a hard time remembering dates;
23 is that correct? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And you testified in fact that there was a time where
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4159 Benjamin-cross/Dunn
1 you say you were walking by where Steve Rubin was, and you
2 overheard a conversation he was having with a customer; is
3 that correct?
4 A That is correct.
5 Q And you really don't remember when that happened,; is
6 that correct?
7 A Not exactly the day, no.
8 Q You said that you are bad with dates; is that
9 correct?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And this is February 12th, 1998; is that correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And you are being asked to testify about something
14 that you think may have happened in 1994; is that correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q So, it is over three
and a half years ago; is that
17 right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Now, yesterday you testified you thought it might be
20 in the late fall; is that correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And is it fair to say that this might sound like a
23 ridiculous question, but it is fair to say that winter 24 follows fall; is that correct? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4160 Benjamin-cross/Dunn
1 Q And winter begins on December 20th of every year; is
2 that right, or the 21st to some people; is that right?
3 A I guess so.
4 Q Well, it does, doesn't it?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And as you sit there now, you don't know whether you
7 heard this conversation in December, like December 14th,
8 or December 25th, or January of '95, you really don't
9 know, do you?
10 A I know that it was in the late fall. It was prior to
11 Christmas.
12 Q Prior to Christmas?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Now, if Liz Sautter put forth some information at
15 Who's Who Worldwide, is it fair to say that the
16 salespeople should believe what Liz Sautter said about
17 something?
18 A Yes.
19 Q If Liz Sautter said that she put Boris Yeltsin's name
20 into the system, and that became known to salespeople,
21 they should believe it, shouldn't they, if Liz Sautter
22 said it?
23 A If Liz said it, yes. 24 Q So, if Liz Sautter said that Boris Yeltsin was in the 25 system, there would be no reason for Mr. Rubin to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4161 Benjamin-cross/Dunn
1 disbelieve it, if she said it, if she put him in the
2 system?
3 A No.
4 Q And there were an awful lot of Russian people who
5 were members; is that right?
6 A T
hat's correct.
7 Q And that is something that was encouraged at Who's
8 Who Worldwide; is that right?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And the salespeople, you didn't really interact with
11 the salespeople; is that correct?
12 A Other than their suggestions for Tribute and things
13 like that, no.
14 Q And as was asked before -- withdrawn.
15 There were times at Who's Who Worldwide when
16 there were as many as 50 salespeople; is that correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And it is your testimony that you have recollection
19 of meeting with 10 to 15 people concerning the Hilton Head
20 conference; is that correct?
21 A That is correct.
22 Q As you sit there now, you don't have an independent
23 recollection as to who those ten to fifteen people were; 24 is that correct? 25 A That's correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4162 Benjamin-cross/Dunn
1 Q Now, you met several times with agents from the
2 United States Government and prosecutors from the United
3 States Government; is that correct?
4 I will withdraw the question.
5 A Please.
6 Q Did you meet with members of the prosecution team,
7 either agents of the Postal Service, or Assistant U.S.
8 Attorneys?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And at any time, either at those meetings or in
11 meetings with your attorney were you shown a complaint
12 which made reference to a number of people arrested at
13 Who's Who Worldwide or Sterling Who's Who?
14 A A complaint?
15 Q Yes, like a book.
16 A No.
17 MR. DUNN: Can I have just a moment, your Honor?
18 THE COURT: Yes.
19 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
20 proceedings.)
21 MR. DUNN: Your Honor, I would like to show this
22 to the
government.
23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 MR. DUNN: May I approach, your Honor? 25 THE COURT: Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4163 Benjamin-cross/Dunn
1 (Counsel approaches the witness stand.)
2 Q Ms. Benjamin, I would like you to look at what is
3 marked for Identification as Defendant's Exhibit AE and
4 AF. I would like you to take a look at those and see if
5 you recognize that.
6 A That's Steve Walden.
7 Q And you know him as Steve Rubin; is that correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Now, that photograph, besides recognizing the person
10 in the photographs, do you recognize where those were
11 taken?
12 A They appear to be in the office at Lake Success.
13 Q At Who's Who Worldwide?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And does it appear to be an accurate representation
16 of the location at Who's Who Worldwide where M
r. Rubin
17 sat?
18 A Yes.
19 MR. DUNN: Your Honor, I would move this in
20 evidence as Defendant's Exhibit AE and AF.
21 THE COURT: Any objection?
22 MR. WHITE: No, your Honor.
23 MR. DUNN: I would ask they be published to the 24 jury, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: Before you do that, AE and AF,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4164 Benjamin-cross/Dunn
1 Defendant's Exhibits are marked in evidence.
2 (Defendant's Exhibit AE received in evidence.)
3 (Defendant's Exhibit AF received in evidence.)
4 MR. DUNN: Can I give one to the front row and
5 one to the back row?
6 THE COURT: No. You will do it the way I want it
7 done.
8 MR. DUNN: That's why I ask.
9 THE COURT: Good try.
10 MR. DUNN: Your Honor, I want to show a minute of
11 this to Ms. Benjamin if I may. It is Defendant's Exh
ibit
12 AC, the video of Who's Who Worldwide.
13 (Videotape is played.)
14 Q Now, if you look at this, is this past your office?
15 A It looks like it is administration.
16 Q And that's Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?
17 A That's the administrative offices, yes.
18 Q What is that?
19 A Cabinetries, and inside the administration.
20 MR. DUNN: I am going to fast forward it a little
21 bit.
22 Q Now, where is this?
23 A The hallway to the left. To the left would be 24 Mr. Gordon's office, and my office would be all the way 25 down to the other end.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4165 Benjamin-cross/Dunn
1 MR. DUNN: I am going to fast forward it again.
2 THE DEFENDANT RUBIN: That's it there.
3 Q Now, this area is where the group leader would sit or
4 the salespeople?
5 A No, the s
alespeople.
6 Now, that's where the group leaders would sit.
7 Q Is that the salesperson area or group leader?
8 A It is still group leader, and someone who would be
9 the clerical.
10 Q Now, is this getting into the sales area here?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And that's also the sales area?
13 A It appears to be.
14 Q We are going down this hall over here, that appears
15 to be the sales area also?
16 A Down here to the left, the black cubicles, yes, that
17 was the sales area.
18 MR. DUNN: If I can just have a moment?
19 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
20 proceedings.)
21 If I can take a look at the photographs again.
22 JUROR NO. 5: They are right there.
23 Q I would like you to take a look at AE and AF again. 24 Is it fair to say that there is a wall that 25 basically is jutting to the back, at the back of
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4166 Benjamin-cross/Dunn
1 Mr. Rubin; is that correct?
2 A This here, yes, uh-huh. This one?
3 Q Right.
4 A Seats changed all the time.
5 MR. DUNN: If I can just have a moment, your
6 Honor.
7 THE COURT: Yes.
8 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
9 proceedings.)
10 MR. DUNN: If I can approach, your Honor?
11 THE COURT: At any time.
12 (Counsel approaches the witness stand.)
13 Q If you can take a look at this, Ms. Benjamin.
14 A Yes.
15 Q If I were to tell you this is a diagram of Who's Who
16 Worldwide, the interior, and this would be Bruce Gordon's
17 desk here.
18 A Yes.
19 Q And this is the conference room. And your office is
20 here?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And is it fair to say that you would have to travel
23 quite a dis
tance to get over where the salespeople would 24 be? They would be over in this area here; is that 25 correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4167 Benjamin-cross/Dunn
1 A Yes.
2 Q And is it fair to say that in certain areas, if you
3 were walking down a corridor past someone who had a seat,
4 or an area at the wall, there would be no purpose for
5 walking by that; is that correct?
6 A It would depend. Sometimes I would have to return
7 papers to one of the salespeople, or ask them to get in
8 touch with someone.
9 Q But if someone was the last person located in the
10 area with his back to the wall, there would be no purpose
11 for you to be going past, walking past that person; is
12 that correct?
13 A It depended who I was going near or what I was
14 doing.
15 MR. DUNN: I just need one more moment,
your
16 Honor.
17 THE COURT: Yes.
18 MR. DUNN: I would like to give these back to the
19 jury, they were viewing it.
20 THE COURT: Sure. Do you remember who had it.
21 MR. DUNN: I think it was the back row.
22 THE COURT: They remember anything.
23 (Exhibits referred to returned to the jury.) 24 MR. DUNN: I have no further questions, your 25 Honor.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4168 Benjamin-cross/Dunn
1 THE COURT: Anything else?
2 Redirect examination?
3 MR. WHITE: Yes, your Honor.
4
5 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. WHITE:
7 Q Now, Ms. Benjamin, you said that -- I guess it was
8 this morning -- that you were aware of a company called
9 Williams, or an operation called Williams Who's Who?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Tell us again what Williams Who's Who was?
12 A It wa
s another Who's Who concept that Mr. Gordon had
13 come up with for people who were not in the top ranking
14 executive suite.
15 Q And have you ever heard of Summit, S U M M I T, Who's
16 Who?
17 A I am not sure which, but either Williams was changed
18 to Summit, or the Summit name was changed to Williams.
19 Q Irrespective of the name change, it was the same
20 thing?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Is that what you are saying?
23 A Yes, that's correct. 24 Q If you can take a look at Government's Exhibits -- 25 that binder which starts with Government's Exhibit 900 in
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4169 Benjamin-redirect/White
1 evidence.
2 (Handed to the witness.)
3 Now, if you can page through, say, the first ten
4 exhibits there, and if you can look at each one, under --
5 let me back up.
6 Th
ose are invoices from Listworks for mailing
7 lists; is that right?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q And under where it says Listworks, it says mailer; is
10 that correct?
11 MR. TRABULUS: Are we on a particular exhibit
12 now?
13 MR. WHITE: 900.
14 MR. TRABULUS: I thought we were on the first
15 ten; is that right?
16 Q It says mailer?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And below that it says offer?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And next to it is your name and it says Registry of
21 leaders; is that right?
22 A That's correct.
23 Q Now, page through those first ten exhibits looking at 24 what is listed on each one after where it says "offer." 25 You don't have to read it aloud, just look at it.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4170 Benjamin-redirect/White
1 A I am sorry?
2 Q Just review all ten to yourself.
3 A All right.
4 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
5 proceedings.)
6 A Okay.
7 Q Turn to Exhibit 933.
8 A Okay.
9 Q And look in the same field there where it says offer?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Now look at the next ten exhibits after that.
12 A You mean up through 942?
13 Q Yes.
14 A Yes.
15 Q And having looked at those do the invoices indicate
16 whether the mailing lists are for Worldwide or Sterling as
17 opposed to Summit Who's Who?
18 MR. TRABULUS: Objection to form, your Honor.
19 Information which one is Summit?
20 THE COURT: Overruled.
21 MR. TRABULUS: I don't know which one he is
22 talking about.
23 THE COURT: Show it to counsel. 24 MR. WHITE: Starting at 933 to 942. 25 By the way 933 through 942 are simply for
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4171 Benjamin-redirect/White
1 identification. They are not in evidence.
2 THE COURT: All right.
3 Q Now, the mailing lists that are for Sterling or for
4 Worldwide, do the invoices indicate that in some way?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Now, if you flip back to 900, the first ten you
7 looked at, how can you tell it is from -- for Sterling or
8 Worldwide?
9 A Next to offer, it says offer colon, Registry of
10 leaders, Sterling.
11 Q If an invoice next to that offer part said Summit,
12 who would that invoice be for?
13 A More than likely Summit/Williams.
14 Q If it says Registry of leaders, Sterling, who is the
15 mailing list for?
16 A Worldwide or Sterling.
17 Q Okay.
18 Now, do you remember looking at the telemarketing
19 slips for the Airborne Express and the auto discounts;
20 correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And Mr. Trabu
lus asked you if you spoke to members,
23 and if any member expressed to you if they cared as to 24 whether or not Who's Who was getting money as a result of 25 the benefits; do you remember that?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4172 Benjamin-redirect/White
1 A Yes.
2 Q And now, what was your answer to that?
3 A I didn't recall any such conversation.
4 Q And is it fair to say that the members couldn't
5 explain about that because they didn't know?
6 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor.
7 THE COURT: Well --
8 MR. TRABULUS: We have the Tribute Magazine,
9 which contains a reference to it.
10 THE COURT: I think you will have to precede that
11 with another question, as to whether the members were
12 advised of the financial arrangements.
13 MR. WHITE: She testified this morning she was
14 deleting it fro
m the scripts. I will ask the question.
15 THE COURT: She deleted certain things from the
16 scripts. But were the members ever advised that Who's Who
17 Worldwide would receive a financial remuneration for these
18 extra benefits ordered by the members? Were they
19 advised?
20 THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge.
21 Q Aside from the one ad in Tribute Magazine that
22 Mr. Schoer showed you, are you aware of any disclosure to
23 members that Who's Who Worldwide was getting financial 24 benefits from them using the benefits? 25 A No.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4173 Benjamin-redirect/White
1 Q And you described in response to Mr. Schoer's
2 questions that that line in the Tribute Magazine ad was a
3 mistake, right?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q Mr. Schoer said people make mistakes, and you agreed,
6 correct
?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And that only related to the auto insurance, right,
9 that ad that Mr. Schoer showed you?
10 A Yes.
11 THE COURT: Let us in on this ad. What did this
12 ad say? Did it say that Who's Who got a piece of the
13 action?
14 THE WITNESS: So to speak, yes.
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 Q That didn't have to do with the Airborne Express, did
17 it?
18 A No.
19 Q Did it have to do with the long distance?
20 A No.
21 Q Telephone services?
22 A No.
23 Q Now, you spoke -- you were shown -- let me show you 24 Defendant's Exhibit AA, Abel Abel. 25 If I can read over your shoulder here, one of the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4174 Benjamin-redirect/White
1 benefits offered is the Who's Who Executive Club business
2 center. Do you see that?
3 A Yes.
4
Q It says attractive conference room for members and
5 such business services as state of the art computers,
6 faxes and phones, located in Manhattan's stunning
7 international plaza building; do you see that?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Do you see that?
10 A Yes.
11 Q So members could use the conference room at the
12 Sterling New York City office?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Was there a fee for that?
15 A Yes, there was.
16 Q Now, tell us how far from the New York City penthouse
17 on 54th Street the Sterling office was?
18 A The Sterling office was located on 59th Street and
19 Lexington Avenue. To my recollection the penthouse was on
20 54th right off second Avenue, between 2nd and 3rd.
21 Q Would you say a ten minute walk?
22 A Just about.
23 Q Now, you testified that Mr. Gordon told two Russian 24 gentlemen, that Russian members could stay at the
25 penthouse?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4175 Benjamin-redirect/White
1 A Yes.
2 MR. TRABULUS: Objection. It mischaracterized
3 the testimony. She testified --
4 THE COURT: I never do that. If it does, the
5 witness will say so.
6 Overruled.
7 Q To your knowledge, did any Russian members ever stay
8 there?
9 A Not to my knowledge.
10 Q To your knowledge did any member other than
11 Mr. Gordon stay there?
12 A Not that I am aware of.
13 Q Now, were there any luxury hotels near the Sterling
14 New York City office?
15 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor.
16 THE COURT: Overruled.
17 A I can answer?
18 Q Yes.
19 A Well Manhattan is filled with luxury hotels.
20 Q Let's take the Plaza Hotel at 59th and Central Park
21 South; is that right?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And that's not too far away from the Sterling office; 24 is that correct? 25 A Correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4176 Benjamin-redirect/White
1 Q Now, if Who's Who members wanted to come into town
2 and needed a place to stay, could Sterling Who's Who put
3 them up at the Plaza Hotel?
4 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Yes. Sustained.
6 A Could they --
7 THE COURT: No. When I say "sustained" that's
8 the warning. Don't answer.
9 THE WITNESS: I am sorry.
10 THE COURT: Overruled, answer. Sustained, don't
11 answer.
12 THE WITNESS: All right.
13 THE COURT: Now, I assume you will be longer in
14 redirect.
15 MR. WHITE: Yes.
16 THE COURT: It sounds like you are just warming
17 up here.
18 MR. WHITE: It sounds that way?
19 Yes, I have more
.
20 THE COURT: We will recess. You will have to be
21 back tomorrow morning -- I am sorry, tomorrow afternoon at
22 1:30. Prior to 1:30. We are going to start at 1:30.
23 Members of the jury, we will recess and give you 24 a chance to catch up on things tomorrow or go to work, one 25 or the other. You know my preference.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4177 Benjamin-redirect/White
1 Where are you going?
2 In the meantime do not discuss the case among
3 yourself or anywhere else.
4 Don't visit the Plaza Hotel.
5 Keep an open mind. Could to no conclusions. We
6 will recess until 1:30 tomorrow afternoon. Have a nice
7 day.
8 (Whereupon, at this time the jury left the
9 courtroom.)
10 THE COURT: As I said, you will be back before
11 1:30 tomorrow afternoon.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 THE C
OURT: Did you get the order of witnesses
14 after Ms. Benjamin?
15 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I have to figure out what
16 it is, your Honor?
17 Did you want Ms. Benjamin to leave first?
18 THE COURT: No, it is not necessary.
19 Are you leaving anywhere now?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes.
21 THE COURT: Okay, you can leave.
22 (Whereupon, at this time the witness left the
23 witness stand.) 24 THE COURT: Let the record indicate that 25 Ms. Benjamin is leaving because she wants to depart the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4178
1 premises.
2 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, after Ms. Benjamin is
3 finished, we will have some more tapes, and we will have
4 Sal Ochoa, O C H O A. I think it will consume the
5 afternoon.
6 MR. JENKS: What happened to Mr. West?
7 MR. WHITE: Because of travel, and Mr. Ochoa is
8 from out of town.
9 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I have a bail
10 application before Chief Judge Sifton, and the earliest
11 they were able to put it on for was 11:15. They are aware
12 I am on trial and assured me I can get out of there
13 quickly. They couldn't put it on earlier because Judge
14 Sifton is sharing his courtroom with Judge Ross because of
15 the construction.
16 In the off chance I am late when I come back, I
17 have spoken with Mr. Jenks and spoken with Mr. Gordon.
18 They are both agreeable that Mr. Jenks can stand in for me
19 what -- for what I hope is a short period of time. My
20 expectation is on for 1:30.
21 THE COURT: You should immediately tell the
22 courtroom deputy that I want you taken immediately and get
23 you out immediately. 24 Do you want me to call Chief Judge Sifton? 25 MR. TRABULUS: I have already explained to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4179
1 Mr. Kessler, the courtroom deputy, and he said he will
2 take care of me understanding the problem.
3 THE COURT: If there is any problem, you make
4 that application. And tell him I am directing you to do
5 that.
6 MR. TRABULUS: I will do so.
7 THE COURT: Mr. Gordon is agreeable because you
8 are late for any certain of time because of Mr. Jenks to
9 take over representation?
10 THE DEFENDANT GORDON: Yes.
11 THE COURT: He knows he is entitled to have you,
12 Mr. Trabulus, and your fine self in person here.
13 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.
14 We have discussed it, and also Mr. Jenks' clients
15 and Mr. Gordon have an identity of exposure and overlap.
16 THE COURT: Yes.
17 Is it all right with you, Mr. Gordon?
18 THE DEFENDANT GORDON: If he is not here by 1:30
1
9 I will scream and yell.
20 THE COURT: But you agree to go ahead in any
21 event?
22 THE DEFENDANT GORDON: Yes.
23 THE COURT: There is an identity of interests. 24 MR. WHITE: I don't believe the bankruptcy 25 trustee agrees that there is an identity of interests.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4180
1 MR. WHITE: You gave me a chance for some
2 research --
3 THE COURT: You have a problem because there is a
4 case that says the consistent statement must be identical
5 in nature in the attack. U.S. against Guido, G U I D O.
6 It is the seminal case.
7 MR. WHITE: I guess my question was, what area of
8 the rule should I focus on?
9 Your Honor is concerned that we are not meeting
10 the foundation on that, that it is not consistent?
11 THE COURT: Yes.
12 MR. WHITE: I thought the day before that
there
13 was not an attack --
14 THE COURT: You showed me there was.
15 MR. WHITE: All right.
16 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Now you lose on different
17 grounds.
18 MR. WHITE: We will see.
19 MR. WALLENSTEIN: I understand Mr. White is not
20 intending to redirect Ms. Benjamin with respect to
21 anything concerning Mr. Reffsin. And I certainly trust
22 that representation from him. If anything does come up,
23 Mr. Geduldig assures me he covers it. 24 THE COURT: If Mr. White tells you he will not 25 get into anything, you can rely on it.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4181
1 MR. WALLENSTEIN: I absolutely do.
2 THE COURT: See you at 1:30.
3 Mr. Trabulus, you better give me the name of that
4 case. The sharing business may take longer than expected.
5 MR. TRABULUS: Apparently Judge Sifton has the
6 matter from 11:00 o'clock on.
7 THE COURT: It may or may not be.
8 Tell me the name of the case?
9 MR. TRABULUS: United States against Morrisey.
10 THE COURT: A sentence?
11 MR. TRABULUS: No, he was sentenced on a
12 violation of supervised release. It is a bail application
13 pending appeal.
14 THE COURT: That's all I have to know.
15 MR. TRABULUS: Judge, if worst comes to worst I
16 will adjourn it. I will be back here. I don't want to
17 spend -- my concern is not that I am spending time there,
18 but there is a problem on the highway.
19 THE COURT: The problem is that if Judge Ross who
20 is sharing the courtroom, is longer, and sometimes she is,
21 you will never get in there by 11:00 o'clock. That's the
22 problem.
23 So, I just want to call and let them know I am 24 interested. 25 MR. TRABULUS: All right.
HARRY
RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4182
1 MR. NELSON: Your Honor, I have a plea tomorrow
2 before Magistrate Judge Gold.
3 THE COURT: You have a what?
4 MR. NELSON: A plea before Magistrate Judge Gold
5 at 10:30 in the morning. I advised both the Judge, the
6 Assistant and the courtroom deputy of the fact I am on
7 trial. They indicated they will take me first. I
8 adjourned the plea twice because of the commitments in
9 this matter, there is a 3030 issue.
10 THE COURT: That's Judge Gold?
11 MR. NELSON: Yes.
12 THE COURT: What is the name of your case?
13 MR. NELSON: United States versus Miranda,
14 R A M U L O, Ramulo, Miranda.
15 THE COURT: I will call.
16 MR. NELSON: Thank you, Judge.
17 (Case on trial adjourned until 1:30 o'clock p.m.,
18 Friday, February 13, 1998.)
19
20
21
22
23 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4183
1 I-N-D-E-X
2 W-I-T-N-E-S-S-E-S 3 PAGE LINE 4 D E B R A B E N J A M I N............... 3921 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 3922 4 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 3940 19 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4018 9 6 D E B R A B E N J A M I N.................... 4046 7 7 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)....................... 4048 1 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION............................ 4060 8 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)....................... 4061 17 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION............................ 4079 7 9 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)....................... 4080 4 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4097 2 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4115 1 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4135 22 11 CROSS-EXA
MINATION................................ 4139 15 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4148 3 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4155 19 REDIRECT EXAMINATION............................. 4168 5 13
14 E-X-H-I-B-I-T-S
15 Government's Exhibit 41-E received in evidence... 3973 5 16 Defendant's Exhibit Z received in evidence....... 4007 20 Defendant's Exhibit H received in evidence....... 4020 10 17 Defendant's Exhibit U received in evidence....... 4040 16 Defendant's Exhibit K received in evidence....... 4041 17 18 Defendant's Exhibit AB received in evidence...... 4049 15 Defendant's Exhibit AA received in evidence...... 4050 16 19 Defendant's Exhibit AE received in evidence...... 4050 17 Defendant's Exhibit AC received in evidence...... 4116 16 20 Defendant's Exhibit AD received in evidence...... 4116 17 Defendant's Exhibit AG received in evidence...... 4149 9 21 Defendant's Exhibit AE received in evid
ence...... 4164 2 Defendant's Exhibit AF received in evidence...... 4164 3 22
23 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
