Whos Who Worldwide Crushed In One Day by Corruption and Corporate Dirty Games of Reed Elsevier
Here's a true 'scene of the crime.' Steven West, Steven Watstein, Steve West, and who knows how many others?
Multi-convicted government informer who shows up for trials in limosines, although he's supposed to be unable to pay taxes, and never enters or leaves his limosine within eyesight of external courthouse cameras.
Having generated many millions through scams and frauds, this professional liar wasn't too hard to trick. As expected, he walked,
even after testifying how he ripped many thousands of people off, while WWW Registry gave what it promised and more. Go figgurit.
4594
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X 3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, : CR 96 1016(S-1) 4 v. : U.S. Courthouse 5 Uniondale, New York BRUCE W. GORDON, WHO'S WHO 6 WORLD WIDE REGISTRY, INC., : STERLING WHO'S WHO, INC., 7 TARA GARBOSKI, ORAL FRANK : OSMAN, LAURA WEITZ, ANNETTE 8 HALEY, SCOTT MICHAELSON, : STEVE RUBIN, and MARTIN 9 REFFSIN, : TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL 10 Defendants. :February 18, 1998 11 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X 10:05 o'clock a.m.
12 BEFORE:
13 HONORABLE ARTHUR D. SPATT, U.S.D.J. and a jury 14 APPEARANCES: 15 For the Government: ZACHARY W. CARTER 16 United States Attorney One Pierrepont Plaza 17 Brooklyn, New York 11201 By: RONALD G. WHITE, ESQ. 18 CECIL SCOTT, ESQ. Assistant U.S. Attorneys 19 For the Defendants: NOR
MAN TRABULUS, ESQ. 20 For Bruce W. Gordon 170 Old Country Road, Suite 600 21 Mineola, New York 11501
22 EDWARD P. JENKS, ESQ. For Who's Who Worldwide 23 Registry, Inc. and Sterling Who's, Who, Inc. 24 332 Willis Avenue Mineola, New York 11501 25 (cont'd)
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4595
1 APPEARANCES (cont'd):
2 GARY SCHOER, ESQ. For Tara Garboski 3 6800 Jericho Turnpike Syosset, New York 11791 4 ALAN M. NELSON, ESQ. 5 For Oral Frank Osman 3000 Marcus Avenue 6 Lake Success, New York 11042
7 WINSTON LEE, ESQ. For Laura Weitz 8 319 Broadway New York, New York 10007 9 MARTIN GEDULDIG, ESQ. 10 For Annette Haley 400 South Oyster Bay Road 11 Hicksville, New York 11801
12 JAMES C. NEVILLE, ESQ. For Scott Michaelson 13 225 Broadway New York, New York 10007 14 THOMAS F.X. DUNN, ESQ. 15 For Steve Rubin 150 Nassau Street 16 New York, New York 10038
17 JOHN S. WALLENSTEIN, ESQ. For Martin Reffsin 18 215 Hilton Avenue Hempstead, New York 11551 19
20 Court Reporter: HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR United States District Court 21 Two Uniondale Avenue Uniondale, New York 11553 22 (516) 485-6558
23 Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript 24 produced by Computer-Assisted Transcription 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4596
1 M O R N I N G S E S S I O N
2 (Whereupon, the jury entered the courtroom.)
3
4 S T E V E N W A T S T E I N ,
5 called as a witness, having been previously
6 duly sworn, was examined and testified as
7 follows:
8
9 THE COURT: Good morning, members of the jury.
10 Please be seated.
11 When I heard at 10:00 a.m. not all of you were
12 there, I knew it was a mistake, that that was not so, that
13 even those who travel from as far away as Brooklyn would
14 get there on time, and I was absolutely correct, for which
15 I appreciate.
16 You may proceed.
17 MR. NELSON: Thank you, your Honor.
18
19 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)
20 BY MR. NELSON:
21 Q Good morning, Mr. West.
22 A Good morning.
23 Q Mr. West, I believe we left off yesterday afternoon 24 discussing the refund policy that was implemented by your 25 company.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4597 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Am I correct that your testimony yesterday was
2 that during a period of time you had instructed your sales
3 staff and other members of your staff to advise customers
4 who were seeking refunds that a refund could not be
5 provided as a result of the
fact that their name had
6 already been engaged on their plaque when in fact such
7 plaque had not been prepared?
8 A That is correct, sir, during a brief period of time.
9 Q Am I also correct that during a period of time you
10 had instructed your staff to advise customers seeking
11 refunds that they would not be permitted to acquire their
12 refunds because their names had been included in the
13 registry which had already gone to print, when in point of
14 fact the registry had not yet been sent to the publisher?
15 A Yes, for a brief period of time, that's correct, yes,
16 sir.
17 Q Am I correct that there had been a period of time
18 when you actually had provided commissions to members of
19 your staff for preventing people from acquiring refunds?
20 A That is correct.
21 Q I believe yesterday Mr. Jenks showed you a number of
22 magazines, called Tribu
te Magazines, defense Exhibits C
23 through G. 24 I would like to show you what is previously 25 introduced into evidence as Defendant's Exhibit D, which
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4598 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 is a Tribute magazine from the winter of 1995.
2 Other than yesterday, have you ever seen such a
3 magazine, sir?
4 (Handed to the witness.)
5 A Yes.
6 Q Was this shown to you by the government?
7 A I am not quite sure where I had seen it.
8 Q But you have had an opportunity to see this magazine,
9 correct?
10 A Not to study it, but to see it.
11 Q I would like to turn to an area of the magazine and
12 go through it one at a time.
13 Do you notice here that Who's Who Worldwide
14 Executive Club provided a Master Card to members.
15 Did any of your entities provide a cost-free
16 Master Card to any of the members of your entities?
17 A No, we did not.
18 Q I would like to show you on another page a reduced
19 cost for Advantage calling card with the Who's Who
20 Executive Club embossation from Transnational
21 Communications, Inc., was any such benefit provided to any
22 member of U.S. Executives?
23 MR. WHITE: Objection. 24 THE COURT: What ground? 25 MR. WHITE: I have an application with respect to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4599 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 this whole line of questioning.
2 THE COURT: What is your application?
3 MR. WHITE: My application is to preclude it.
4 THE COURT: You want a sidebar conference?
5 MR. WHITE: Yes, your Honor.
6 THE COURT: Come up.
7
8 (Whereupon, at this time the following took place
9 at the sidebar.)
10 MR. WHIT
E: I didn't mean to delay things. I
11 wanted to make sure the ground rules are straight here.
12 They can question Mr. West about whatever his
13 company did. I think, so, if they are questioning
14 specifically and that pointedly as to the comparisons of
15 his company and Mr. Gordon's company for purposes of
16 showing the different things that Mr. Gordon offered, it
17 would open the door for the government to point out the
18 similarities.
19 If they want to cross-examine about untrue things
20 they said, fine. But the sole purpose of everything
21 Mr. Jenks went through yesterday and what Mr. Nelson
22 appears to be going through is to draw a positive
23 comparison that Mr. Gordon is so much better than 24 Mr. West. If that's the case, the door can't swing one 25 way, the government should be able to bring out the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL C
OURT REPORTER 4600 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 similarities.
2 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, the government brought
3 out all the similarities in the direct examination of
4 Mr. West.
5 THE COURT: Do you want to slow down,
6 Mr. Trabulus.
7 MR. SCHOER: It was over objection.
8 MR. TRABULUS: Over objection.
9 He brought it out and selectively identified a
10 variety of things that Mr. West did that paralleled some
11 of the evidence against Mr. Gordon.
12 Although this was ostensibly done in terms of
13 drawing the teeth on a witness who can be, by bad acts and
14 prior conviction discredited, but another purpose was to
15 impliedly show the jury these acts constituted bad acts
16 because this witness pled guilty to draw in the jurors'
17 minds that Mr. Gordon is guilty as well.
18 It is quite proper to show the jury how the
19 co
nduct between the two companies differed.
20 MR. NELSON: Indeed the Court might recall at the
21 request of defense it was necessary for the Court to
22 provide a limiting instruction to the jury yesterday that
23 the conduct of Mr. West is such that it cannot be drawn 24 against these defendants based on any similarity. 25 THE COURT: I did. And I fully intend you to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4601 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 bring out all the differences.
2 MR. NELSON: Thank you, your Honor.
3 THE COURT: I don't know why this conference was
4 necessary, because I agree with defense counsel that the
5 government attempted to show a lot of similarities.
6 That's why I sua sponte told the jury that that plea of
7 guilty had nothing whatsoever to do with this case. And
8 that was a personal decision made by him. If you recall,
9 that is what I said.
10 MR. NELSON: Yes, your Honor.
11 MR. TRABULUS: Yes, your Honor.
12 MR. WHITE: To put one thing in context of what
13 happened yesterday.
14 Obviously I brought out what Mr. West pled guilty
15 to. It was not done for the purpose of drawing a
16 comparison. It was unavoidable. That's what Mr. West
17 pled guilty to.
18 THE COURT: It helped a little bit.
19 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, may I put one thing in
20 context?
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 MR. WHITE: The government didn't want to call
23 Mr. West. The defense attorneys all stipulated to the 24 authenticity of the tapes. But they insisted, insisted 25 that Mr. West be brought in here.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4602 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 MR. TRABULUS: I didn't.
2 MR. WHITE: They wanted to go through all his bad
3 acts, so I don't want any imputation that I was doing this
4 so the jury can draw an improper conclusion.
5 THE COURT: I am not drawing any imputations.
6 MR. WHITE: Mr. Trabulus is.
7 THE COURT: I am saying what the average
8 reasonable juror could infer since he pled guilty to this,
9 and the defendants here doing the same thing are also
10 guilty. That's why I made the curative charge.
11 MR. WHITE: I thought it was appropriate and
12 didn't object.
13 THE COURT: I will not limit them or prohibit
14 them from showing differences.
15 MR. WHITE: On redirect can the government point
16 out the similarities?
17 THE COURT: You have pointed them out already.
18 If you have any other similarities, you will not go over
19 the same thing again. That would be prejudicial and
20 unnecessary. This jury heard the similarities.
21 MR. WHITE: Okay.
22 MR. TRABULUS: I would like to state that I did
23 not request that Mr. West testify. I did request other 24 confidential informants who recorded statements made by 25 Mr. Gordon, which Mr. West did not, be available to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4603 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 testify.
2 MR. WHITE: That is not so. Mr. Trabulus said I
3 want the CI's there. He wanted West, Ihlenfeldt and
4 Zerring here. And they are here only because the defense
5 wanted them here.
6 MR. TRABULUS: I wanted Zerring and Ihlenfeldt.
7 MR. WHITE: You can't pick and choose.
8 THE COURT: You may continue, Mr. Nelson.
9
10 (Whereupon, at this time the following takes
11 place in open court.)
12 Q Mr. West, I would like to show you a page in the
13 magazine which indicates that Airborne Express discounts
14 up to
40 percent are provided to members of Who's Who
15 Worldwide. Did your entity provide such a benefit for its
16 members?
17 A No.
18 Q I would like to show you a section of the magazine
19 where there is an advertisement through Telecom,
20 T E L E C O M, International, for a discount of up to 70
21 percent on international telephone calls.
22 Was such a benefit as that provided to members of
23 your membership organization? 24 A No. 25 Q And similarly, I would like to show you on the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4604 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 adjoining page, that domestic discounts were provided the
2 members of Who's Who Worldwide.
3 Was such a membership benefit provided to members
4 of your organization?
5 A It was proposed, but no one maintained interest in
6 it.
7 Q Was there a members
hip, the next page, for Executive
8 Club members for auto insurance provided to members of
9 your organization?
10 A No, sir.
11 Q Okay.
12 Am I correct that there was an advertisement in
13 this Tribute magazine for such a discount to members of
14 Who's Who Worldwide?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q Finally, do you notice on another page of the
17 magazine, there is a medical emergency card for a discount
18 on Med Jet assistance for members of Who's Who Worldwide.
19 Was such a benefit provided for members of your
20 organization?
21 A I believe it was proposed, but no one maintained an
22 interest in it.
23 Q Now, I believe you testified yesterday that at some 24 point in time you had attempted to use a nomination 25 procedure, but you dropped that; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4605 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A That is correct.
2 Q Okay.
3 Did your company at any point in time provide to
4 existing members nomination ballots for them to nominate
5 other members for inclusion in your organization?
6 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no, sir.
7 Q Well, you were the owner of the company. Did you
8 ever have a printing company draw up and prepare a
9 nomination ballot that you would have had to expend money
10 to send to members, to then have given to other people for
11 membership benefits?
12 A It was not called a nomination ballot. It was called
13 something else, to achieve a similar result.
14 Q Did you ever expend funds for the preparation of a
15 document which would be sent to members of your
16 organization so, that if they so chose, they could prepare
17 that document and send it back to your company for the
18 purpose of nominating other people, yes or no?
19 A Yes. But to the best of my recollection we did for a
20 brief period of time. But there was no interest in the
21 members in utilizing such ballots.
22 Q How many hundreds of thousands of ballots did you
23 have sent out to your members? 24 A I don't know the number, sir. 25 Q Did you send a hundred?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4606 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A I don't want to guess. I don't know the number.
2 Q Did you send five?
3 A You are asking me to guess, and I don't want to
4 guess.
5 Q You were the owner and principal of your company; is
6 that correct?
7 A Yes, that's correct.
8 Q Did you send any form of mailing to your members for
9 them to nominate other people? Yes or no?
10 A Sir, my recollection is yes, we did. I cannot give
11 you an exact count. It was done for a brief period of
12 time, and there was no interest or response from the
13 members to the best of my recollection.
14 Q Did you implement any type of a procedure or policy
15 at your company for the purpose of screening those
16 nomination ballots so you could act upon them?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q And what was that procedure?
19 A The procedure and policy that was established in May
20 of 1990 was that for someone to be qualified for our Who's
21 Who, they had to --
22 Q I am talking about nomination solely.
23 A It applied to both. 24 Q I am asking about nominations only. 25 A As to nominations, nominations would not be accepted
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4607 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 unless the individual had five years experience in his or
2 her field and had
the title of manager or director or
3 higher.
4 Q And can you tell us how many nomination ballots were
5 received by your company?
6 A As I previously testified, sir, there was no strong
7 interest in that. It was not a substantial number.
8 Q Can you tell us how many were mailed by your number?
9 A I don't know the answer. I previously testified to
10 that, sir.
11 Q Can you tell us whether or not they were mailed in a
12 publication, along with a letter, or whether or not they
13 would just shift as an individual ballot?
14 A I don't have a clear recollection. It might have
15 been included with the plaques that were shipped, the
16 books that were shipped, but I am not sure.
17 Q You as principal of the company don't know how or in
18 what manner these nominations were sent out; is that
19 right?
20 A I don't recall that, sir. Yes, that's correct
.
21 Q Now, I believe it is your testimony as relating to
22 the possibility of networking for members of your
23 organization, you intended to have some seminars at 24 various different locations, but none of them came 25 through?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4608 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A At a singular location, sir.
2 Q You attempted to do it one time?
3 A That's right.
4 Q It didn't come through?
5 A No one maintained an interest in that consequence,
6 sir.
7 Q Did you at any point in time prepare or have
8 implemented an interactive CD-ROM or any other form of
9 software which could have been utilized by members for
10 interfacing with other members?
11 A As I previously testified, sir, in 1989, 1990,
12 CD-ROMs were not in use.
13 Q But there were computers in those days, right?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And in those days you were also able to have disks;
16 is that correct?
17 A The technology existed, yes, sir.
18 Q Did you do anything like that?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q And did your organization maintain any form of
21 conference facilities that facilitated members to have
22 conferences on your premises?
23 A As I previously testified, sir, the answer is no to 24 that question. 25 Q And -- withdrawn.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4609 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 As I previously stated with respect to networks,
2 as a contention, attempts to hold a seminar on one
3 occasion that did not occur, there was no reason or
4 facility for members to network with other members?
5 A You are not correct, sir.
6 Q They would be able to look inside the registry in
7 order to find that; is t
hat correct?
8 A Yes. Because we had phone numbers in our directory,
9 yes, sir.
10 MR. NELSON: I ask that it be stricken as not
11 responsive.
12 THE COURT: That answer is stricken as not
13 responsive. The jury is instructed to disregard it.
14 Q Would I be correct in stating in summary you
15 eventually entered a guilty plea in March of 1993, where
16 you admitted you defrauded literally thousands of
17 customers out of close to 14 million dollars?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q You were arrested on that charge on May 20th, 1992;
20 is that right?
21 A As I previously testified, yes, sir.
22 Q I would like to go back in time a little bit.
23 Am I correct that as far back as 1990 you were 24 aware that you were under investigation by postal 25 authorities, because a search warrant was executed on your
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL CO
URT REPORTER 4610 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Cutters Mill Road offices in June of 1990?
2 A I was aware prior to that, sir.
3 Q Despite the fact of your awareness, a search warrant
4 was executed in June of 1990 at your principal place of
5 business; is that correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And the government followed up seeking other
8 documents of yours because they believed you secreted them
9 in your North Shore Tower residence in July of 1991; is
10 that correct?
11 A I can't answer that question yes or no, sir.
12 Q Did they execute a search warrant?
13 A Yes.
14 Q In July of 1991?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q And did you ever look at the affidavit in support of
17 the search warrant?
18 A Not recently.
19 Q Are you aware that the search warrant indicated that
20 the government believed that you had taken the document
21 from the Cutters Mill Road location --
22 THE COURT: Starts over again. You were revved
23 up. 24 Q Did you review your search warrants with the 25 attorneys at any point in time with respect to the search
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4611 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 executed on your residence at any point in time?
2 A Not in detail, sir, no.
3 Q Do you recall that the search warrants affidavit
4 stated that the government believed that you had moved
5 documents from the Cutters Mill Road location to your home
6 for the purposes of keeping them from the government?
7 A I don't have a recollection of that.
8 Q Was there another search warrant executed a month
9 later in August of 1981, at the mansion you were building
10 in Mill Neck?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And again, with the government now looking for the
13 documents that they couldn't find that they believed you
14 had now moved from the Cutters Mill Road location to North
15 Shore Towers, and now to the mansion you were building on
16 Mill Neck Road?
17 A I don't understand the question, can you rephrase
18 it?
19 Q Was there a third search warrant executed?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And in fact, was there a third search warrant
22 executed on a storage facility you maintained where you
23 had other business records? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q That's at the end of August of 1991; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4612 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q Am I correct that after all these search warrants
3 were executed there eventually came a point in time in
4 late May, 1992, where the postal authorities finally did
5 arrest you for
mail fraud and tax evasion.
6 A I answered the questions three or four times
7 already.
8 Q You can --
9 MR. NEVILLE: Can you ask the witness to answer
10 yes or no and not explain?
11 THE COURT: Yes.
12 I was going to say that many of these questions
13 were asked previously. When it becomes too repetitious, I
14 will stop it.
15 Until then you don't have to precede the answer
16 with I already answered that. The jury recalls what you
17 have answered and that these questions, because of the
18 large number of defendants and lawyers who will
19 cross-examine you, there will necessarily be some
20 questions which are repetitive.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
22 THE COURT: In addition, there are some questions
23 which are a predicate for other questions, predicate 24 repetitive questions. So you don't have to say I 25 previously answere
d that. The jury remembers what you
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4613 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 previously answered.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
3 THE COURT: All right?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
5 MR. NELSON: Thank you.
6 Q In addition to you being arrested your wife was
7 arrested; is that correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And she was likewise arrested for charges in
10 participating in your business in a fraudulent manner and
11 assists in tax evasion; is that correct?
12 A No, sir.
13 Q Just participation in the business?
14 A That was not the nature of the charge, sir.
15 THE COURT: Mr. Nelson, I am going to interrupt
16 you and tell you the same thing.
17 There are of necessity some of the questions are
18 repetitive. Please do not go over it over and over
19 again. It goes for all the lawyers
. And I will stop
20 you.
21 MR. NELSON: I will understand. Some of them are
22 repetitive questions.
23 THE COURT: We heard these things, and they were 24 repeated several times. The jury knows he was arrested 25 four times already.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4614 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 MR. NELSON: I understand and I will move on.
2 Q You did enter a plea in May of 1993?
3 A March.
4 Q March of 1993?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q That was eight months after your arrest, but two
7 years after the first search warrant was executed on your
8 premises; is that right?
9 A Yes, 23 months, yes, sir.
10 Q And would I be correct in stating that between the
11 date of the execution of the search warrants upon your
12 business and the entry of your guilty plea in March of
13 1993, you became aware t
hat the lead agent conducting the
14 investigation against you was postal inspector Martin
15 Biegelman?
16 A Your timing is not correct, sir, no.
17 Q When did you become aware?
18 A In May of 1990.
19 Q So, you became aware very shortly before the first
20 search warrant was executed that Inspector Biegelman was
21 the lead investigator investigating your company; is that
22 right?
23 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no, sir. 24 Q You knew in 1990, at the time that the first search 25 warrant was executed and the time of your arrest that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4615 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Inspector Biegelman was in charge of the investigation; is
2 that right?
3 A He was not initially in charge.
4 Q There was another inspector but he eventually became
5 in charge?
6 A Y
es.
7 Q And he was in charge at the period of name that you
8 actually were arrested; is that correct?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q And am I correct that during the course of the eight
11 months between your arrest and the guilty plea, you and
12 your attorney met with Agent Biegelman and other federal
13 agents on a number of different occasions?
14 A Would you repeat the question, please?
15 Q Between the day you were arrested and the day you
16 entered your guilty plea, from March 1993 -- '92, excuse
17 me -- excuse me, from May of 1992, to March of 1993, you
18 met with your attorney and agents of the government
19 including Inspector Biegelman on a number of occasions?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q And you discussed your case in some detail during
22 that period of months; is that correct?
23 A There were various discussions, yes. 24 Q Am I correct that the Assista
nt United States 25 Attorney handling the investigation at that time, Seth
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4616 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Marvin discussed with you what the evidence against you
2 was, right? You sat there in a room, he told you this is
3 what we feel the evidence is against you, and he laid it
4 out to you and your attorney; is that right?
5 A No, sir, not correct.
6 Q Did the inspector do that?
7 A Not to the best of my recollection, no.
8 Q Did one of your attorneys come back to you after
9 meeting with the Assistant United States Attorney and say,
10 look, Mr. West, this is what the prosecutor tells me the
11 evidence is against you?
12 A I don't believe there was any such conversation of
13 substance like that.
14 Q You were never aware between the dates you were
15 arrested, the date you we
re arrested, and the date you
16 entered your guilty plea what the nature of the
17 government's evidence was against you?
18 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no, sir.
19 Q You never discussed with your attorney, what your
20 attorney felt was the nature of the evidence against you?
21 A The answer to that question is: Yes, sir.
22 Q And you went over with your attorney what it was that
23 your attorney felt based upon discussions with the 24 prosecution and a review of documents which were provided 25 by the prosecution, the government would or would not be
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4617 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 able to prove against you; is that right?
2 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no, sir.
3 Q Well, there came a point in time where you entered a
4 guilty plea; is that right?
5 A Tha
t is correct.
6 Q And that was a knowing and intelligent plea of
7 guilty; is that right?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q And it was premised upon your true belief that you
10 were guilty; is that correct?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And it is also premised upon the belief that the --
13 the belief that the government could prove the case
14 against you beyond a reasonable doubt; is that correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q In order to make such an informed decision, you spoke
17 with your attorney about what your attorney's belief was
18 concerning the weight, the credibility of the evidence
19 that the government had against you; isn't that right?
20 A The answer to that question is: Yes, sir.
21 Q And he acquired -- he or she acquired that evidence
22 or information from discussions with the prosecution?
23 A No, sir. 24 Q Is that correct? 25 A No, sir, it is not.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4618 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Q It is based on discussions with you?
2 A No, sir. I can't answer that question with a yes or
3 no, sir.
4 Q Would I be fair in saying then that it was based on
5 discussions with the prosecution, discussions with you,
6 and an investigation conducted by he or her, and documents
7 provided by the government to your attorney?
8 A I am not aware of any substantive discussions that my
9 attorney had with the government as far as what they felt
10 was the balance of evidence. But there are many ways in
11 which my attorney advised me that he felt the guilty plea
12 would be appropriate.
13 Q And based on those discussions did you form the
14 belief in your mind that the government would be able to
15 prove their case against you beyond a reasonable doubt,
16 sir?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q And following those discussions, am I correct, sir,
19 that your attorney also advised you of the potential
20 penalties that you would face if you went to trial and you
21 were found guilty?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q And he also went over with you the potential 24 penalties you would face based upon a plea of guilty; is 25 that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4619 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A In substance that's correct, yes.
2 Q And after you reviewed these things with your
3 attorney -- let me back up for a moment.
4 He also went over with you the federal sentencing
5 guidelines; is that correct?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q And he went over with you the possible sentence you
8 could receive under the guidelines?
9 A That is correct.
10 Q Did he also rev
iew with you the possible sentence
11 that your wife could receive under the guidelines?
12 A I don't have a complete recollection about that.
13 Although I discussed it with my wife's attorney.
14 Q Did your wife's attorney advise you of the possible
15 sentence she could face under the federal guidelines?
16 A He misadvised me.
17 Q Were you given advice concerning that?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Based on that advice did you agree at the time that
20 you agreed to enter a plea of guilty that you would
21 receive a mandatory jail sentence under the federal
22 sentencing guidelines?
23 A In the absence of a cooperation agreement? 24 Q In the absence of a cooperation agreement. 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4620 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Q Did you also believe absent cooperation your wife
2 wo
uld also be facing a mandatory period of incarceration?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q He had advised you that your wife would not be
5 eligible for a jail sentence, that it was discretionary on
6 the part of the Judge; is that right?
7 A Substantially, yes.
8 Q He indicated it was possible, but it might not occur
9 that your wife would go to jail; is that right?
10 A No, sir, that's not correct, sir.
11 Q Well, you believed you could absent a cooperation
12 agreement; is that right?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q You believed there was a chance your wife might?
15 A No, sir.
16 Q You thought there was no chance she could?
17 A I was told her only potential penalty would be house
18 arrest.
19 Q Now, am I correct that following these discussions
20 and review of your options, you actually elected to give
21 up your right to go to trial and enter a guilty plea; is
22 that right?
23 A That is correct. 24 Q You pled guilty in March of 1993 in this courthouse 25 before Judge Mishler; is that right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4621 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A Yes.
2 Q And I will not belabor the points that Mr. Jenks went
3 over with you yesterday, the fact that you pled guilty to
4 six separate federal felony charges; is that right?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q And that was pursuant to a plea agreement you
7 negotiated or your attorney negotiated on your behalf; is
8 that correct?
9 A That is correct.
10 Q I would like to show you what is marked as
11 Defendant's Exhibit AL. You were shown this yesterday by
12 Mr. Jenks; is that correct?
13 (Handed to the witness.)
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q This is your plea agreement; is that correct?
16 A That is correc
t.
17 Q I will not go over the plea agreement in great
18 detail. Mr. Jenks did that. I will not belabor the
19 points.
20 Would I be correct -- I would like to turn your
21 attention to page 4, paragraph 2-D of the agreement.
22 Am I correct that paragraph 2-D provides that
23 based upon a multiple count analysis, the office -- that 24 means the United States attorney's office -- estimates 25 that likely combined adjusted offense level to be 29, and
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4622 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 that with a two level reduction for acceptance of
2 responsibility under guideline section 3E1.1, the total
3 offense level it would be 27, which carries a range of
4 imprisonment of 70 to 87 months.
5 Is that correct, sir?
6 A That is correct.
7 Q Would I be correct in stating that that means absent
8 your cooperation, it would be mandatory for you to receive
9 a minimum sentence of 70 months, or close to six years in
10 jail?
11 A That is correct.
12 Q And I am correct that you were advised by your
13 attorney during the course of your negotiations that there
14 were circumstances, and even if a jail sentence was
15 mandatory and the judge is required to send you to jail,
16 he doesn't have to do so if you provide substantial
17 assistance to the government; is that right?
18 A That is exactly the phraseology that he told me, yes,
19 sir.
20 Q And am I correct that you were advised if you
21 provided the substantial assistance to the government,
22 that the prosecutor, in your instance, it is Seth Marvin,
23 can, if he or she so chooses, writing a letter to the 24 judge, telling him, in this case Judge Mishler, about your 25 substantial assistance
to law enforcement personnel?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4623 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A That is correct.
2 Q And am I correct that you were advised that under
3 section 5K1.1 of the federal sentencing guidelines, that
4 if the government writes such a letter to the judge, the
5 judge no longer is required to send you to jail, the judge
6 now has discretion to give you a sentence lower than that
7 mandatory 70 to 82 month sentence; is that right?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q In effect it would be an award for your cooperation
10 for substantial assistance to the government for the
11 prosecution of other people; is that correct?
12 A Substantial assistance, yes.
13 Q But the important thing is not substantial assistance
14 relating to what you did, but substantial assistance as it
15 relates to what other people did; is that
right?
16 A That is not my understanding at all, sir.
17 Q Were you told -- let me back up for a moment.
18 Were you told that the government wanted to find
19 out information about what other people did?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q And you were already agreeing to plead guilty; is
22 that right?
23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q And they didn't need more evidence against you? 25 A I may not have understood your question, if you
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4624 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 repeat the question.
2 Q Let me rephrase it then.
3 The agreement provides that you have to provide
4 substantial assistance in the investigation of other
5 people; is that right?
6 A That is correct. Now I understand your question.
7 Yes, sir.
8 Q Maybe I wasn't speaking clearly. I apologize.
9 In order to get this let
ter, you have to assist
10 the government in your investigation of what the
11 government believed other people were engaging in, was to
12 be unlawful and criminal activity; is that right?
13 A Might be engaging in, yes, sir.
14 Q You didn't want to go to jail for the mandatory
15 six-year period of time that the agreement provided for;
16 is that right?
17 A Of course.
18 Q And, certainly, you wanted to make sure that your
19 wife received the best possible benefit she could receive,
20 and at worst it would be home detention and maybe not even
21 that; is that correct?
22 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no, sir.
23 Q Well, am I correct -- I would like to turn to the 24 last page of the agreement -- that you entered the plea 25 agreement on September 8th, 1993?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4625 Wa
tstein-cross/Nelson
1 A '92, sir.
2 Q '92, I apologize.
3 A Yes.
4 Q And you met with the government before you entered
5 the agreement, and many times after you entered the
6 agreement; is that right?
7 A That is correct.
8 Q And you met with Assistant United States Attorney
9 Seth Marvin and Inspector Biegelman during your
10 negotiations of this agreement and shortly thereafter; is
11 that right?
12 A And other parties as well, yes, sir.
13 Q Would I be correct in stating that a pretty busy
14 period of time at least during your initial phase of
15 cooperation would have been during July and August of
16 1992, where you were debriefed by the government about
17 your role in your business?
18 A I wouldn't characterize it as a particularly busy
19 period of time, no.
20 Q You met a number of times; is that right?
21 A
We met once or twice, I believe.
22 Q And you went over what you did in the operation of
23 your businesses; is that right? 24 A Yes. 25 Q You went over different documents they showed to you
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4626 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 in order to provide them with a road map of how things
2 operated in your business; is that right?
3 A I think that's substantially correct, yes.
4 Q And you also went through with them the role and
5 responsibility of different people who were employees of
6 yours during that period of time; is that correct, sir?
7 A I don't think we had that discussion during the
8 period of time you just mentioned, no.
9 Q And after you signed your plea agreement on September
10 8th, 1992, you continued to meet with Inspector Biegelman,
11 Assistant United States Attorney Marvin, and
other
12 investigators; is that right?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And those would be the fall of 1992; is that right?
15 A I am not sure if there were substantive meetings in
16 the fall of 1992.
17 Q Well, during that period of time, do you recall
18 whether or not you had any meetings to discuss the conduct
19 and role of other employees of yours?
20 A I am not sure if the first meeting was not until the
21 winter of 1992.
22 Q When you say the winter of 1992, would that have
23 been -- 24 A December. 25 Q December of 1992?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4627 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A Yes.
2 Q Okay.
3 Was that at the United States Attorney's office
4 in Brooklyn?
5 A My recollection is that it was in the post office in
6 Hicksville. But I am not quite sure of the exact
7 lo
cation.
8 Q Who did you meet within December of 1992?
9 A I believe it was Officer Leonard.
10 Q Would I be correct as of the time you entered your
11 plea agreement, Postal Inspector Leonard became the point
12 person in your cooperation as a witness?
13 A Sometime later, yes.
14 Q Am I correct that prior to Inspector Leonard becoming
15 involved the point person was Inspector Biegelman?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And up to that time, other than the information you
18 provided about yourself, the only other people you
19 provided information about were people who had been
20 employees of yours; is that right?
21 A No, that's not true, sir.
22 Q Well, did you provide information with respect to
23 employees of yours? 24 A I don't believe in that time period you are referring 25 to. The answer is yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT
REPORTER 4628 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Q I am talking about before December of 1992?
2 A I don't believe that was the substantive discussion,
3 no.
4 Q They didn't ask you about any of your employees?
5 A I don't have a recollection in that particular time
6 period that you are mentioning, no.
7 Q Did they ask you, and did you agree to testify
8 against other employees such as Cathy Shkinder,
9 S H K I N D E R, and Linda Zeitzer, Z E I T Z E R?
10 A Yes, subsequent to the period you just described,
11 sir.
12 Q Well, initially the government asked you to testify
13 against people that implemented -- implemented in the
14 scheme you devised?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q That's part of the scheme, isn't it?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q The government wanted you to help put the people in
19 jail who helped you make money; is that right,
yes or no?
20 A The way you phrased the question, the answer is yes.
21 Q You, of course, were willing to do that to keep
22 yourself out of jail; is that right?
23 A That is correct. 24 Q Now, I believe you testified that in January of 1993, 25 you made recordings on two different dates of former
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4629 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 employees of Oxford Who's Who, and Who's Who Worldwide; is
2 that correct?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q Am I correct that Inspector Biegelman or it might
5 have been Inspector Leonard during this early period of
6 time, in addition to asking you about employees, also
7 asked you about other people out there, other Who's Who
8 type of organizations?
9 A Your minor premise in the question is inaccurate, so
10 I can't respond to it.
11 Q Who asked you about it?
12 A Officer Leonard.
13 Q Okay.
14 A But not about the employees of the company.
15 Q They asked you about the companies; is that right?
16 A They asked me about the companies Oxford and Who's
17 Who Worldwide, but not about my company.
18 Q They didn't care about your company?
19 A In that particular time period you specified, sir.
20 Q So, the inspectors were interested in your former
21 competitors?
22 A In Who's Who Worldwide and Oxford Who's Who, yes,
23 sir. 24 Q And both of those companies had been, prior to your 25 company being shut down a competitor of yours; is that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4630 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 right?
2 A An accurate statement, sir.
3 Q And it was during these meetings that Inspector
4 Leonard asked you about the other Who's Who organizations
5 that you were aware of which were doing business on Long
6 Island; is that right?
7 A That is correct.
8 Q And am I correct that you told Inspector Leonard that
9 these other companies were -- at least in your opinion --
10 doing the same thing that you were being prosecuted for;
11 is that right?
12 A In substance that's correct. It was not my
13 phraseology, though.
14 Q Thank you.
15 Now, it was about this time during the late fall
16 of 1992, that you started telling the inspector about
17 Who's Who Worldwide and Bruce Gordon; is that right?
18 A I don't think it is an accurate statement about me
19 telling the inspector. I was responsive to the questions,
20 that would be accurate.
21 Q You never worked for Who's Who Worldwide, had you?
22 A No, sir.
23 Q You never worked for Oxford Who's Who, had you? 24 A No, sir. 25 Q Y
ou had never been inside Who's Who Worldwide, had
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4631 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 you, other than the lobby of 1983 Marcus Avenue?
2 A That's correct, sir.
3 Q You had never been inside their physical premises; is
4 that right?
5 A No, sir.
6 Q And you had never seen the solicitation letter sent
7 out by Who's Who Worldwide in the early winter of 1992,
8 had you?
9 A Yes, I had.
10 Q And who had provided that to you?
11 A It was sent to me. I was solicited from a mailing
12 list.
13 Q Had you been provided with -- had you had a copy of
14 the sales presentation of Who's Who Worldwide?
15 A What time period are you talking about, sir?
16 Q Early 1992 -- late 1992, I am sorry.
17 A No, sir.
18 Q And you also told Inspector Leonard everything you
19 knew abo
ut the telemarketing company Oxford Who's Who; is
20 that right?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q And you had never been inside that facility either,
23 had you? 24 A That is correct. 25 Q Now, in the fall of 1992 -- when I am speaking the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4632 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 fall, I am talking about December, and I guess that's
2 early winter, of 1992, you were aware that the
3 telemarketing business by its very nature, led to a large
4 turnover in personnel; is that right?
5 A Not necessarily true.
6 Q As far as the salespeople were concerned, they came
7 and went with some regularity?
8 A Are you talking about telemarketing in general or
9 telemarketing Who's Who Worldwide.
10 Q In Who's Who type companies?
11 A I believe that's accurate testimony.
12 Q Am I correct that you tes
tified in January of 1993 at
13 your own initiative and your own expense you placed ads in
14 the New York Times and Newsday advertising that you were
15 starting a new Who's Who company; that you were a former
16 operator of a Who's Who company; and that you were looking
17 for former employees of other Who's Who companies to come
18 to work for you?
19 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no, sir.
20 Q Let's break it down then and see which ones you might
21 be able to answer.
22 A That makes sense.
23 Q Was there an ad in the New York Times? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q Was there an ad in Newsday?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4633 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q Did you pay for the ad yourself?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q Did you conduct interviews at the Garden City Hotel?
5 A Yes, at the
request of the postal inspector, yes,
6 sir.
7 Q And were those on two different dates?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q Were they in a hotel room?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q Did you pay for the hotel room yourself?
12 A I did.
13 Q So, you paid on your own for the ads and the room, in
14 order to bring people to the hotel who were former
15 employees of the company in order to interview them; is
16 that right?
17 A That is correct, sir.
18 Q Now, the purpose -- withdrawn.
19 You weren't really starting any new company; is
20 that right?
21 A That is correct.
22 Q And the purpose of the interview was to facilitate
23 acquiring evidence against these other Who's Who entities, 24 your former competitors that Inspector Biegelman and 25 Inspector Leonard had asked you about during the period of
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT R
EPORTER 4634 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 your active cooperation during the fall and early winter
2 of 1992; is that right?
3 A It is correct.
4 Q All right.
5 Now, you are a well educated -- certainly a very
6 intelligent man, sir. You discussed your credentials and
7 Mr. Jenks has gone through that in some detail.
8 You knew, am I correct, that at the time you went
9 out and spent your own money on the ads and the room, in
10 order to try to ensnare and entrap the people coming
11 there, that in your role as the organizer, supervisor and
12 leader of the business you created, you had to get more
13 evidence than just the lowly salespeople of your company
14 in order to convince Judge Mishler and the government at
15 the time of your -- that your eventual sentence was going
16 to come up that you shouldn't go to jail; is that right?
17 A No,
sir.
18 Q You felt that by providing a guilty plea and ratting
19 out your former employees that would be more than enough
20 evidence for you not to get 70 months in jail, and that
21 you could have gotten your six months playing in your
22 house as you wound up getting?
23 MR. WHITE: Objection. 24 THE COURT: Sustained. 25 A I cannot answer that question --
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4635 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 THE COURT: I sustained the objection.
2 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. Excuse me.
3 Q You knew as of January of 1993, when at your own
4 expense you placed the ads and at your own expense you
5 rented the hotel rooms that it was important for you to
6 get some real players, to get some people who were at
7 least as bad as you; isn't that right?
8 A No, sir.
9 Q You didn't feel that way?
10 A No, sir.
11 Q And the inspectors and the agents told you that that
12 was not important. Your cooperation was sufficient just
13 based upon the fact that you were prepared to testify
14 against your employees; is that right?
15 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no, sir.
16 Q Okay.
17 Well, am I correct that you decided that a good
18 place to get evidence against these target companies, that
19 is your former competitors, might be from the former
20 employees of these companies, who were out there looking
21 for jobs?
22 A That is an accurate statement, sir.
23 Q And am I correct that it was your plan to run the ad 24 in the paper to get telemarketing people to come for a job 25 interview for a new company you were setting up and that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4636 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 you were going to conduct these interviews?
2 A My plan was approved by the post office, yes, sir.
3 Q But you came up with the scheme; is that right?
4 A The plan, yes, sir.
5 Q And the scheme you set up called for you to interview
6 the former employees of the target company that answered
7 the ad in an attempt to get incriminatory information
8 about the former companies that you worked for; is that
9 right?
10 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no, sir.
11 Q You recorded the interviews, didn't you?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q And it was your attention to record the interviews,
14 wasn't it?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q And your attention was to get incriminatory
17 information while you were there; is that right?
18 A No, sir.
19 Q It was your attention to hire them for a false and
20 fictitious company you weren't setting up, is that r
ight?
21 A No, sir.
22 Q You were recording them to protect yourself?
23 A I can't answer your question like that. If you want 24 to ask an open-ended questions, I can respond fully. 25 Q I am sure you would like to, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4637 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A That's correct.
2 Q At your interviews that you conducted, you asked the
3 interviewees about specific things that you thought might
4 be improper with the former company's way of doing
5 business to see what their response would be; is that
6 right?
7 A That was an aspect of the interview, yes, sir.
8 Q Was it another aspect of the interview to review
9 their qualifications so you could actually employ these
10 people who had spent their time and effort to come to a
11 job interview?
12 A No, sir.
13 Q You weren
't going to setup the business, were you?
14 A No, sir.
15 Q You weren't going to hire any of these people, were
16 you?
17 A No, sir.
18 Q The sole purpose of this interview was to get them
19 recorded so you could get evidence that could help you
20 stay out of jail, right?
21 A No, sir.
22 Q No.
23 The questions you asked them during the course of 24 these interviews. You knew what to ask; is that right? 25 A As to what potential question would be appropriate,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4638 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 yes, sir.
2 Q Did the inspectors give you a kind of script and list
3 of questions they wanted you to ask?
4 A No, sir.
5 Q You knew what to ask; is that right?
6 A I think I understood what questions would be
7 appropriate, yes, sir.
8 Q And you knew what
to ask because a lot of these
9 things that you asked about is what you did at your
10 companies; is that right?
11 A That is correct.
12 Q Now, you claim you literally had written the book on
13 this type of fraudulent operation; is that correct?
14 A That is not an appropriate phrase, sir.
15 Q Am I correct that in order to further the plan, you
16 actually held the interviews of a job applicant at the
17 Garden City Hotel, I believe January 20th was one day. I
18 don't know what the other day was. Doing what the other
19 day was?
20 A No, sir.
21 Q Am I correct that this would be a good two months
22 before you actually entered your guilty plea?
23 A That is correct. 24 Q And you entered your guilty plea in March of 1993; is 25 that right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4639 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q And so, you were in the Garden City Hotel, and you
3 had rented the room, and you had paid for the ad, and you
4 were soliciting these people and reported them all as part
5 of your plan before you actually went into court to enter
6 a guilty plea; is that right?
7 A That is correct.
8 Q And the agreement that you signed, until you actually
9 pled guilty, didn't mean beans, did it?
10 A I don't understand what you mean by beans, sir.
11 Q Well, in other words, until you plead guilty before
12 the judge, the agreement doesn't really mean anything, it
13 doesn't mean anything until you've delivered the goods,
14 and you needed to deliver the goods before you entered
15 your guilty plea; isn't that right, sir?
16 A If you are yelling at me I can't respond to your
17 questions. Would you repeat the question slowly, please.
18 MR. SCHOE
R: Objection.
19 Q I will withdraw the question.
20 A Thank you.
21 Q I will withdraw the question.
22 You had these meetings in January of 1993; is
23 that right? 24 A You are referring to the meetings at the Garden City 25 Hotel?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4640 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Q Yes.
2 A Yes.
3 Q You pled guilty in March of 1993; is that right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q You entered your plea agreement back in September of
6 1992?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q And that plea agreement provided unless the
9 government determined you provided substantial
10 cooperation, you would be doing a minimum of 70 months or
11 six years in jail; is that right?
12 A I had answered that. Yes, sir.
13 Q And so, it was important for you in conducting these
14 interviews to show the agents your
ability to acquire
15 significant evidence for the government in new
16 investigations; isn't that right, sir?
17 A Significant evidence is not significant assistance,
18 sir.
19 Q It was important for you to show to the government
20 your ability to deliver the goods. Wasn't it, sir?
21 A No, sir.
22 In my understanding at that time, no, sir.
23 Q You didn't think it was important? 24 A It was important to provide significant assistance. 25 Q Okay.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4641 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 It was so important to you that you paid for the
2 ad and you paid for the room; is that right?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q You had to get other fish to fry; isn't that right,
5 sir?
6 A No, sir, that was not the understanding that I had at
7 that time.
8 Q Up to that point, all you had
given them was the
9 names of your competitors and your former employees; isn't
10 that right?
11 A No, sir.
12 Q Well. I would like to show you --
13 (Mr. Nelson confers with Mr. White.)
14 Q Mr. West, I would like to show you 3500-22-I.
15 (Handed to the witness.)
16 Q This is the 5K letter eventually written on your
17 behalf?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q I would like you to peruse the documents for a
20 moment. Look through it. Can you tell me, is there
21 anywhere in that document that it reflects work that you
22 did on behalf of the government prior to September of
23 1992. 24 A This document does not reflect that. That's correct, 25 sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4642 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Q And this is a letter written to Judge Mishler by the
2 prosecutor for you detailing al
l of the cooperation that
3 you provided in all of the investigations from the day
4 that you entered your plea agreement in September of 1992,
5 and the date that you were sentenced in July of 1995; is
6 that correct?
7 A It did not detail all the cooperation, sir, that's
8 correct.
9 Q And so, it just happened to leave out the work that
10 you did before you came to this meeting, right?
11 A No, sir.
12 Q It is not in there, is it?
13 A If you let me respond --
14 Q Is it in there, yes or no?
15 A No, sir, it is not in that document.
16 Q Would I be correct in stating that when you conducted
17 these interviews at the Garden City Hotel you utilized
18 your best techniques in order to make sure that you
19 acquired the information that the government was seeking
20 and that you needed to hear?
21 A The answer to the first part of your quest
ion is
22 yes. The answer to the second part is no.
23 Q You used your best sales techniques in order to 24 acquire information; is that right? 25 A That is correct, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4643 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Q You wanted as best as you could to use every
2 conceivable means at your disposal to elicit, cajole,
3 ensnare, convince, the person in the interview to say what
4 it was that you needed to hear; is that right?
5 A No, sir. That's totally inaccurate.
6 Q You wanted as hard as you could to try to get the
7 information that you felt could help you; isn't that
8 right?
9 A No, sir, it was not the objective of the meeting.
10 Q The objective of the meeting was to develop evidence;
11 is that right?
12 A That's correct, sir.
13 Q And in developing that evidence you tried to us
e your
14 best techniques as an undercover agent to get that; is
15 that right?
16 A That is more accurately phrased, yes, sir.
17 Q And you drew upon your considerable skills in
18 writing, speaking and public manipulation in order to be
19 able to acquire that information; is that right?
20 A The answer to your minor, major premise is correct.
21 Your conclusion is incorrect.
22 Q And on January 20th, 1993, you actually interviewed
23 an individual by the name of Frank Martin; is that right? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q And he was never an employee of your company, was he?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4644 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A That is correct.
2 Q And you had never met him before this interview; is
3 that right?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q And, however, you did speak with him before this
6 inter
view; is that right?
7 A I don't have a recollection of speaking with him
8 before the interview. It is possible, but I don't believe
9 so.
10 Q Well --
11 A I am almost positive I did not. He did speak to my
12 wife, though.
13 Q You made it a point of recording the interviews
14 conducted at the hotel; is that right?
15 A That is correct, sir.
16 Q And you didn't record any of the telephone
17 conversations conducted between these people you were
18 ensnaring to come to the hotel, did you?
19 A I had no such conversations with the people, sir.
20 Q You had your wife do that, right?
21 A My wife was instructed by Inspector Biegelman what to
22 do. I had no participation in that.
23 Q And was Inspector Biegelman to your knowledge present 24 during the course of the telephone conversations between 25 the people who called in response to the a
d and your wife?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4645 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A No, sir.
2 Q Did Inspector Biegelman assist you and your wife in
3 screening through the people who were applying for the job
4 to see which people to bring to the hotel room?
5 A Pardon me, sir. I need to correct one of the answers
6 I gave you which upon reflection was not purely accurate.
7 MR. NEVILLE: Objection.
8 Q The government will get to that later.
9 THE COURT: No. Overruled. Objection
10 overruled. You say one of your answers were not
11 accurate?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 THE COURT: What answer?
14 THE WITNESS: The answer that's the recording of
15 the conversations, there was some recording of
16 conversations at the request of the postal inspector.
17 Q I see.
18 You mean to say some of the telephone
19 conversations preliminary to the interviews themselves in
20 the hotel were recorded?
21 A No, a by-product of that was recorded when my wife
22 was threatened by the former owners of Oxford's Who's Who,
23 and at the instruction of Inspector Biegelman we secured a 24 tape recorder and recorded a subsequent threatening 25 conversation, which was a by-product of the phone
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4646 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 interviews that we had.
2 MR. NEVILLE: Objection. Move to strike as not
3 responsive, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: No. Motion denied.
5 Q Now, the former principal of Oxford Who's Who, he
6 wasn't interviewed at one of these job interviews, was he?
7 A No.
8 Q It was someone who had been a former employee who was
9 interviewed, right?
10 A Would you rephrase the question? You
are referring
11 to the interview itself?
12 Q The interview. During the course of these two days
13 of interviews at the Garden City Hotel, you interviewed
14 Frank Martin; is that correct?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q And you interviewed one other person to my knowledge
17 from Who's Who Worldwide, who had been a former employee
18 of Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q And you interviewed a number of people who had been
21 former employees of Oxford Who's Who; is that correct?
22 A Yes. And one of those gentlemen was an employee of
23 two companies, that's correct. 24 Q And Mr. Martin, he never called you back and 25 threatened you back in any way, did he?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4647 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A Not at all.
2 Q He was a perfect gentleman during the course of the
3 interviews?
4 A Yes, a total gentleman.
5 Q And other than the phone conversation that was taped,
6 you had no other discussion with the man, did you?
7 A No.
8 THE COURT: I want to instruct the jury that this
9 alleged threat by Oxford has nothing whatsoever to do with
10 anything in this case. You are not to regard it in any
11 way with respect to the government's burden of proof in
12 respect to any of the counts in this case.
13 MR. NELSON: Thank you, your Honor.
14 Q Now, did you become aware during the course of the
15 preliminary interviews that were conducted by telephone
16 that Mr. Martin had formerly been employed at Who's Who
17 Worldwide?
18 A Would you repeat that question, please?
19 Q Did you become aware through discussions with your
20 wife, I guess since she was doing the screening, that
21 Mr. Martin had been a former
employee of Who's Who
22 Worldwide?
23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q Did you become aware of the fact that he formerly had 25 been one of the salesmen at Who's Who Worldwide?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4648 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A Yes.
2 Q And did either you or your wife advise him before he
3 came to the interview that the position that he was
4 interviewing for was a job for which you had budgeted a
5 salary of 50 to 75 thousand dollars per year?
6 A It was either advised him prior to the interview or
7 at the interview or both. I am not sure which.
8 Q Is it fair to say that when someone calls in in
9 response to an ad for an interview, they usually ask, how
10 much do I get paid for this job, what does it entail?
11 A Sometimes yes and sometimes no.
12 Q Had you agreed with your wife in advance if that
13 question is asked, you would tell them we are interested
14 for a sales personnel, someone who was to be a manager, we
15 budgeted the sales manager job at between 50 and 75 grand
16 a year?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q Okay.
19 Am I correct that you instructed your wife to
20 tell the people who were calling in that you were starting
21 a new business?
22 A That is correct.
23 Q And you told them that you were looking for new 24 employees? 25 A That's correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4649 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Q And did you have your wife mention during the course
2 of the recordings that you had been arrested on federal
3 mail fraud charges?
4 A You indicated in the course of the recordings?
5 Q Withdrawn.
6 During the course of the telephone conversations
7 when people were be
ing interviewed for the job, when they
8 would ask what this company was going to be about, did you
9 advise any of the people coming to the interview, that
10 you, who were going to be the owner of the company, had an
11 outstanding federal felony arrest for mail fraud?
12 A I think you just asked if I advised, do you mean if
13 my wife advised?
14 Q Did your wife advise?
15 A No, sir.
16 Q Did you instruct her to tell people that?
17 A I was instructed that if I was --
18 MR. NEVILLE: I have no idea what that answer
19 was. Objection.
20 THE WITNESS: Let me repeat it.
21 THE COURT: Let's first hear the question.
22 MR. NELSON: I will hear the -- repeat the
23 question again. 24 Q Did you advise your wife, yes or no, to tell the 25 people who called about the job that you were going to be
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT
REPORTER 4650 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 the principal of this business, and that you had an
2 outstanding arrest for federal mail fraud charges? Yes or
3 no?
4 A As phrased I cannot answer that question with a yes
5 or no.
6 Q Your arrest was public knowledge at that point; is
7 that correct?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q I believe you told us just before that prior to these
10 interviews being conducted you had told the government
11 about Oxford Who's Who; is that right?
12 A The government was well aware of Oxford Who's Who.
13 Q And you discussed with the government Who's Who
14 Worldwide; is that correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And at the time you conducted the interviews as a
17 result of your discussion, they had become targets of the
18 federal investigation; is that right?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q Well, following the phone discuss
ions that your wife
21 had, am I correct that Mr. Martin was eventually
22 interviewed by you on January 20th, 1993?
23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q And you tape recorded that in a -- on a 25 microcassette?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4651 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A That is correct, sir.
2 Q You put the microcassette inside a little eyeglass
3 holder that you put on the desk in the hotel where you
4 were conducting the interview?
5 A Actually Inspector Leonard put it in the eyeglass
6 holder, that's correct.
7 Q And the government provided you with the recording
8 material?
9 A Yes, that's correct.
10 Q And they had taught you how to go about doing that;
11 is that right, is that correct?
12 A Yes, sir, that's correct.
13 Q And you listened to the recording sometime after it
14 was made; is t
hat correct?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q How many times do you say you listened to the
17 recording?
18 A Four or five.
19 Q Did you do it alone or with any representative of the
20 government?
21 A All of my listening to the recording was alone.
22 Q Have you ever listened -- withdrawn.
23 Have you ever assisted in the preparation of a 24 transcript of those recordings? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4652 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Q And did you prepare those transcripts yourself, or
2 were you given a copy of the transcript for purposes of
3 correcting it?
4 A Given a copy for purposes of assuring it was
5 accurate.
6 Q I would like to provide you at this time with
7 Government's Exhibit 1379-A?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q Do you recognize that document, sir?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Am I correct that that is a transcript of the
12 recording made on January 20th, 1993?
13 A That is correct, sir.
14 Q By the way, sir, when did you arrive in New York for
15 purposes of this trial?
16 A On Monday at approximately 11:00 o'clock in the
17 morning. I had other business besides this trial,
18 however.
19 Q Had you reviewed the transcript and/or the tape with
20 the government in preparation for your testimony?
21 A Reviewed it as far as accuracy, yes, sir.
22 Q And did you review it since you arrived in New York?
23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q And did you go over it with any representatives of 25 the government?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4653 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A Would you define go over it, please?
2 Q Did you sit with Mr. White and Ms. Scott in
3 preparation for your testimon
y here in court?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q Who did you meet with?
6 A Both the gentleman and the lady.
7 Q For how long do you say you met with the two of them
8 since your arrival in New York for purposes of your trial
9 testimony here?
10 A I would say in the aggregate, five hours or so.
11 Q And during the course of those five hours, did you
12 review the kind of questions that the government was going
13 to be asking you?
14 A In a generalized sense, yes, sir.
15 Q And did you go over the type of questions that it was
16 anticipated that defense attorneys might be asking you?
17 A In a generalized sense, yes.
18 Q Did you review the transcript with the government in
19 preparation of your testimony?
20 A Not in the time period you are referring to.
21 Q You did review it with the government prior to your
22 arrival in New York; is that correct,
on other occasions?
23 A Actually I reviewed it for the government, but not 24 with the government. 25 Q Now, I would like to turn to certain portions of the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4654 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 transcripts, if I may.
2 A Certainly.
3 Q Before we do that, if you can put on the headphones,
4 I would like to play to you, and it is starting on page 1,
5 a certain portion of the transcript.
6 (Tape is played.)
7 Q Now, am I correct, Mr. West, that at the very
8 beginning of the transcript, Mr. Martin tells you he had
9 read your book; is that right?
10 A Yes, sir. I don't know which book he referred to,
11 but, yes, sir.
12 Q How many books had you written?
13 A Eight.
14 Q Can you tell us the names of those books?
15 A Mental Calisthenics; How to Live to Be a Hundred; the
16 Encyclopedia of Telemarketing; In Search of Sales
17 Excellence --
18 MR. NEVILLE: Could you ask the witness to slow
19 down? I can't write all this down.
20 THE COURT: Well, we will repeat it afterward so
21 you can get it, Mr. Neville.
22 MR. NEVILLE: Thank you.
23 THE COURT: Go ahead. 24 THE WITNESS: How to Live Like a Millionaire; the 25 Power and Pleasure of Sex; and the Encyclopedia of
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4655 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Database Marketing. There may be one other title as best
2 as I can recall.
3 Q The book How to Live Like a Millionaire.
4 THE COURT: Excuse me a moment.
5 Mr. Reporter, would you please repeat those
6 titles.
7 (Whereupon, the court reporter reads the
8 requested material.)
9 Q The book How to Live like a Millionaire, is that the
10 book with you and your wife on the cover with a Rolls
11 Royce?
12 A I am sure there is one or two like that, the -- it
13 goes back about 20 years ago.
14 Q Am I correct if Mr. Martin had done his homework to
15 what he believed to be a job interview, to know enough
16 about you, to know that you had written and authored
17 books; is that right?
18 A I think the term book would be more appropriate.
19 Q Would you agree it is not a bad idea that when you
20 are going to a job interview, where you are going to be
21 offered a salary between 50 and 75 thousands dollars that
22 you do a little homework before you come to the interview
23 because this might be something a -- which is pretty 24 important in your life? 25 A An accurate statement.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4656 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Q Would I be correct in stating that the effect of
2 salesmenship and having written a number of books about
3 salesmenship you are only too familiar with this, be that
4 salesmenship is on the phone or in person, is to get the
5 person you are speaking to, to believe that you are
6 actually interested in him or her?
7 A That certainly is a valid sales tactic.
8 Q And certainly claiming that you read that person's
9 book is a pretty good way to start off to try to impress a
10 person; isn't that right?
11 A I think it is a good way, yes.
12 Q And Frank Martin was trying to impress you because he
13 was looking for a job; isn't that right?
14 A I have no knowledge of what his intentions were. I
15 would assume that would be the case.
16 Q That's the reason you ran the ad, at least as far as
17 everybody else thought, they were there for a job; isn't
18 that
right?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q And I would like to continue with the tape at this
21 point.
22 (Tape is played.)
23 Q Now, I would like to turn to the top of page 2 of the 24 transcript. 25 You told Frank Martin you were in the process of
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4657 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 opening a new Who's Who and buying another one; is that
2 right?
3 A That is correct.
4 Q And also, you told him that you were on a talent
5 search looking for new employees; is that right?
6 A That is correct.
7 Q And both of those statements, of course, were lies;
8 is that correct?
9 A Not as I construe a lie. Part of an investigation of
10 the U.S. post office.
11 Q Were both of those statements untrue?
12 A They were inaccurate.
13 Q Were both of those statements untrue, yes or n
o?
14 A You have to define your use of "untrue," sir.
15 Q Were you buying a new Who's Who?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q Were you on a talent search for people to work Who's
18 Who?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q And did you own a Who's Who at that time, at the
21 present time?
22 A No, sir.
23 Q The jury can draw an inference as to what is a lie 24 and what is not. 25 You also were told -- told him that there were
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4658 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 four Who's Who in existence in January of 1993; is that
2 right?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q Which Who's Whos were you talking about at that time?
5 A Is your question which Who's Who was in existence on
6 Long Island at that time?
7 Q You state that there was -- approximately 7 lines
8 down, as you know, there are four of them now.
9 Which four Who's Who organizations are you
10 thinking about at the time you made that statement in
11 1993?
12 A Oxford Who's Who, International Who's Who, Who's Who
13 Worldwide and a fourth company started by a lady named
14 Marina, M A R I N A, and I am not too familiar with the
15 name of that Who's Who.
16 Q And am I correct that after you commenced your
17 cooperation, you told the postal inspectors that you
18 believed all of those four Who's Who in your opinion were
19 operating in the same manner that you had?
20 A The phrase I used was a similar fashion, yes, sir.
21 Q And as a result of your discussions, those Who's Who
22 organizations, virtually all the Who's Who organizations
23 on existence on Long Island, except, of course, Marquis 24 Who's Who owned by Reed Elsevir became the subject of an 25 investigation that you were participating in that
was
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4659 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 being conducted by the postal inspectors; is that right?
2 A No, sir. Not to the best of my knowledge. It is not
3 an accurate statement, no.
4 Q Would I be correct in stating that as a result of
5 your need to be a cooperating witness, all of the Who's
6 Who entities on Long Island became targets for federal
7 investigation?
8 A No, sir, it would not be correct.
9 THE COURT: Is this a good time to take a break?
10 MR. NELSON: Yes, Judge, it would be a good time.
11 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we are going to
12 take a ten-minute recess.
13 Please do not discuss the case and keep an open
14 mind.
15 (Whereupon, at this time the jury left the
16 courtroom.)
17
18 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.)
19
20
21
22
23 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4660 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the
2 courtroom.)
3 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the
4 jury.
5 You may proceed, Mr. Nelson.
6 MR. NELSON: Thank you, your Honor.
7
8 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)
9 BY MR. NELSON:
10 Q Mr. West, I would like to direct your attention to
11 the third page of the transcript, around the middle of the
12 page -- wait a moment until the jury gets their copy of
13 the transcript. 1379 is the exhibit, and I am going to
14 page 3 at this time.
15 Am I correct that around the middle of the page
16 Mr. Martin advises you that he had returned to New York
17 from Florida in November of 1991?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q And am I correct that h
e told you that prior to his
20 return to New York he had been a marketing consultant in
21 Florida?
22 A That is correct.
23 Q Okay. 24 And he advised you that he set up or assisted in 25 setting up a drug abuse testing laboratory in south
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4661 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Florida for the screening of employees to determine if
2 those employees were using any form of controlled
3 substance; is that right?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q And later during the course of your cooperation from
6 1993 to 1995, you returned to Florida and participated in
7 a number of different investigations where you assisted
8 the postal authorities, Internal Revenue Service and the
9 Department of Labor in various different investigations;
10 is that correct?
11 A That is correct.
12 Q Am I correct
that you were never advised by any
13 agents of any of those entities that there was anything
14 unlawful or fraudulent about this drug testing laboratory
15 Frank Martin had assisted in establishing in Florida?
16 A I had no discussions about that, sir.
17 Q And you are aware of no evidence that this company
18 ever was or is under investigation; is that right?
19 A I have no knowledge about that.
20 Q Am I correct in stating that you lack any knowledge
21 of the fact that the company T O X I C T E C H, Toxictech,
22 is one of the largest drug testing laboratories servicing
23 private industry in south Florida? 24 A I have no knowledge of the company, sir. 25 Q I would like to turn your attention to the bottom of
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4662 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 page 3.
2 Am I correct that Frank Martin tol
d you the
3 reason he returned to New York is because his mother had
4 had a heart attack?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q Did he advise you during that interview at any time
7 that he is an only child and at that time his mother was
8 84 years of age?
9 A Something to that effect was said.
10 Q I would like you to turn to page 4 of the transcript.
11 Am I correct that Frank Martin told you that he
12 started -- this is about the middle of the page -- that he
13 actually started working at Who's Who Worldwide in late
14 November 1991?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q And he told you as you move down on page 4 that there
17 came a point in time, approximately two months after he
18 started working at the company, that Bruce Gordon had
19 asked him whether or not he wished to manage in the
20 company, and he became a sales manager at that time; is
21 that right?
22 A That's what he stated, yes, sir.
23 Q I would like to direct your attention, if you go 24 forward for a moment, to page 7 of the transcript, about 25 two-thirds of the way down, where you ask Mr. Martin, when
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4663 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 did you leave here officially, Frank?
2 He responds, November. So I was there almost a
3 year.
4 Is that right?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And would I be correct in stating that Frank Martin
7 was employed at Who's Who for a little less than a year;
8 is that correct?
9 A That's what he stated.
10 Q And that he had been a manager for maybe nine or ten
11 months of that period of time; is that correct?
12 A That's what he stated.
13 Q I would like to back up in the transcript to page 5
14 at this point; about halfway down the page.
15
Am I correct that Mr. Martin advised you that he
16 and Bruce Gordon had a falling out and that's the reason
17 why he left Who's Who Worldwide?
18 A I think it was more intense than that, but yes,
19 that's correct.
20 Q And am I correct on page 5 Frank Martin advises you
21 that the reason for this falling out was because Bruce
22 Gordon and he had a difference in management techniques?
23 A There were other reasons stated subsequently in the 24 transcript. 25 Q But this portion of the transcript. We are going to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4664 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 work our way through the transcript.
2 A Where are you now?
3 Q This is on page 5 of the transcript, approximately
4 halfway down the page, where Mr. Martin states, to make a
5 long story again very, very short, we reached the point, a
6 p
oint of no return, where Bruce, I think unofficially, I
7 think he had an ego problem with me being in control of
8 the room and people really enjoying my, my form of
9 management, umm, because I believe in positive
10 reinforcement as the ultimate management tool. You can't
11 brow beat people into producing for you, and that's what's
12 happening now, as a result of which morale is very low.
13 Production has faltered, something incredibly so.
14 He told you the reason for leaving the company?
15 A I believe he continues the sentence also.
16 Q That's what he states at a later point, but that is
17 what he stated at this point; is that correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And what I am stating in substance is what Mr. Martin
20 is stating there is that there is a different management
21 technique in the way Mr. Gordon was doing it, is it the
22 way Mr. Martin wanted to do things
, one, positive
23 reinforcement, and the other brow beating his people; is 24 that what that states? 25 A As relating to that paragraph, yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4665 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Q And he indicated he believed this created an ego
2 conflict between him and Mr. Gordon which led to
3 Mr. Martin having to leave; is that right?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q On the same page a little further down, about
6 three-quarters of the way down, am I correct that
7 Mr. Martin tells you, gotten away from the concept of
8 the -- of boiler room concept, if you will.
9 A Pardon me? Where are you?
10 Q Three-quarters of the way down, I will count the
11 number of lines up from the bottom. It would be seven
12 lines from the bottom, starting with, I've gotten away
13 from the concept of the old, the old boiler r
oom concept,
14 if you will, because, umm, this is a very unique concept,
15 the Who's Who. So, I look for intelligent people to begin
16 with.
17 He makes that statement; is that correct?
18 A That is correct.
19 Q And am I correct that Frank Martin is telling you in
20 his view that Who's Who is a very unique concept; is that
21 right?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q And he tells you he is looking for very intelligent 24 people to begin with to be working with you; is that 25 right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4666 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q And he goes on to indicate, would I be correct in
3 stating that it appears that Mr. Martin is very proud of
4 his management technique and in how he treats people; is
5 that correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q I would like to turn to page 6 of the tran
script, and
8 this is starting seven lines from the top.
9 Mr. Martin states, am I correct, that for the
10 first week or two, at least, I like to see which direction
11 these deals are going, so, in case anyone is writing
12 wooden deals, I'll know about it in a hurry, cause
13 sometimes it is hard really to stay over someone's
14 shoulder the whole day.
15 You say, sure.
16 And he goes on to state, even though, umm, I -- I
17 make it a point that, you know, that you can't say
18 anything, that you can't deviate from the presentation.
19 Because, number one, the presentation basically does
20 work. Umm, and number two, the postal authorities, and
21 all those other bad guys out there might be listening, so
22 it behooves you to just stay within the framework of the
23 presentation. That way nobody gets hurt. 24 He makes that statement to you; is that correct
? 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4667 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Q And he says, am I correct that for the first one or
2 two weeks someone who is working with the company -- when
3 someone is working at the company, he would verify the new
4 deals that that person is doing; is that right? That's
5 what he is indicating to you; is that correct?
6 A Yes, sir, uh-huh.
7 Q He goes on to explain that he wants to make sure that
8 he would know immediately if anyone is writing wooden
9 deals?
10 A Uh-huh.
11 Q Is that right?
12 A That's right.
13 Q And would I be correct that you have an understanding
14 of the Who's Who telemarketing business, and that when he
15 said wooden deals, you took that to mean that Frank Martin
16 would verify a sale claim to have been made by a new
17 salesp
erson to make sure that what was being represented
18 by the person over the telephone was accurate; is that
19 right?
20 A No, sir.
21 Q Well, am I correct that the very next thing that
22 Frank Martin says immediately after that statement is: I
23 make it a point to tell the sales staff that, you know, 24 you can't say anything that you can't deviate from the 25 presentation; does he make that statement?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4668 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A Yes, he does.
2 Q All right.
3 You understood when he said "the presentation,"
4 to mean the sales solicitation presentation which is being
5 given by the sales staff when they are speaking to people
6 on the telephone; is that right?
7 A Their script, yes, sir.
8 Q Now, would I be correct in stating then that what
9 Frank Martin is tell
ing you here is that made his people
10 stick to the sales presentation?
11 A I can't answer that with a yes or no.
12 Q Well, is that what he says?
13 A He says that, yes.
14 Q Continuing on page 6 of the transcripts in the
15 portion I just read to you, am I correct that what Frank
16 Martin told you is one of the reasons to not deviate from
17 the script is because he believed that the script worked?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q And he also told you that a second reason was because
20 the postal authorities and all those other bad guys out
21 there might be listening, so it behooves you to make a
22 presentation so you would not be hurt; is that correct?
23 A That's what he said, yes. 24 Q And you said when you were operating the company, you 25 prepared the majority of your sales presentations; is that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4669 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And you were very cognizant about the fact that
4 postal authorities and other regulatory agencies would
5 monitor telemarketers?
6 A Not initially.
7 Q You became aware of that after a period of time; is
8 that correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Obviously Mr. Martin demonstrated an awareness during
11 this recording that he knew that postal authorities
12 monitored the calls closely, because he tells you that
13 during the interview; is that right?
14 A Absolutely.
15 Q Am I correct in stating that based upon -- withdrawn.
16 Am I correct that you told Frank Martin that you
17 had been arrested for the operation of your company?
18 A I don't have a recollection of a direct statement to
19 that effect. It may have been implied somewhere.
20 Q Could you turn to page 22 of the
transcript,
21 approximately three-quarters of the way down the page, so
22 it is six lines down from the bottom.
23 Am I correct that you state to Mr. Martin there, 24 the trauma that I went through taught me quite a lesson? 25 A As I indicated it was an implied statement, not an
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4670 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 explicit statement.
2 Q Would that refresh your recollection that either
3 during the course of the prior telephone interviews, or at
4 sometime during the course of this meeting you had an
5 awareness that Mr. Martin knew that you had been
6 previously arrested?
7 A I think Mr. Martin had an awareness, but there was no
8 explicit statement to that effect.
9 Q So, you believed that to be the case during the
10 course of this interview; is that right?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And as I just read to you, you had advised Mr. Martin
13 you had learned your lesson, in other words, you were
14 stating to him that in this new company you were going to
15 be following the law; is that right?
16 A I made no such statement here, sir.
17 Q Well, were you implying to him that even though you
18 were under arrest and you were interviewing people for a
19 new job, it was your attention to continue to violate the
20 law?
21 A No, sir.
22 Q Am I correct that during the course of the interview
23 and the specific section you talked about here, that Frank 24 Martin was advising you, advising you here, that he 25 closely monitored the sales staff to make sure that they
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4671 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 were conforming to the sales presentation?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q And
he advised you he knew the postal authorities
4 were closely monitoring these presentations; is that
5 correct?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q And certainly he wouldn't be making sure that they
8 stuck to the script if he thought the script was unlawful,
9 and if he knew the postal authorities would be listening;
10 is that right?
11 A I can't comment -- it seems like a logical statement,
12 but I can't comment on his state of mind.
13 Q So, exactly. It is fair to say when Frank Martin
14 says to you it is important that the workers not deviate,
15 is because he believes the script was within the bounds of
16 the law; is that correct?
17 A I can't comment. I can't tell you what was in
18 Mr. Martin's mind when he said that.
19 Q It is certainly a logical conclusion; is that
20 correct?
21 A It seems logical.
22 Q And his demand that the telemarketers rem
ain true to
23 the script, is because he feels the company should be 24 within the bounds of the law; is that correct? A logical 25 deduction?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4672 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A It might be. I am not sure if it is logical or not,
2 but it might be.
3 Q Now, at the bottom of page 6 of the transcript,
4 Mr. Martin states to you that he earned $1,200 per week,
5 no commissions; is that correct?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q And if I recall your testimony from yesterday, you
8 testified that you paid your sales managers a commission
9 on the sales made by the people they supervised; is that
10 right?
11 A That's correct.
12 Q Okay.
13 So the sales managers in your company had every
14 incentive to make sure that virtually every person who was
15 called and accepted would in fact b
e accepted; is that
16 right?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q The more the sales staff made, the greater commission
19 the sales managers would receive; is that correct?
20 A Uh-huh.
21 Q Okay.
22 Based on the statement of Frank Martin here in
23 this recording, this did not occur at Who's Who Worldwide; 24 is that right? 25 A I have no knowledge whether that's truthful or not,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4673 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 sir.
2 Q Well, he says to you during the recording that there
3 were no commissions as a sales override to the sales
4 staff; is that right?
5 A That's a statement that he made, yes, sir.
6 Q Okay.
7 So, the sales managers at Who's Who Worldwide
8 would have had no incentive to make sure that everyone was
9 accepted in the -- if the statement he is making the tr
ue;
10 is that correct?
11 A If that statement was true, yes, I suspect.
12 Q Now, Frank Martin told you he was with the company
13 for a little less than a year; is that right?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And he had been a manager for about nine months; is
16 that correct?
17 A I think ten months.
18 Q Ten months?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And based on a salary of $1,200 a week, he would have
21 been earning, given the period of time he was there, 40 or
22 50 thousand dollars a year; is that correct?
23 A Slightly higher, yes. 24 Q And that would be for 1992; is that correct? 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4674 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Q And am I correct that as of the date of this
2 recording, in January of 1993, you owed the Internal
3 Revenue Service in excess of $600,000 in taxes, intere
st
4 and penalty?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q And you already entered a plea agreement where you
7 would agree to plead guilty to tax fraud; is that right?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q And as part of that agreement you agreed to pay these
10 back taxes back to the government; is that right?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Okay.
13 So, you owed the government in taxes more than
14 ten times what Frank Martin ever earned while he was
15 working at Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?
16 A A factually correct statement, yes, sir.
17 Q And after Frank Martin told you about himself you
18 began to ask him specific questions about the company; is
19 that right?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q And, again, am I correct that you had Mr. Martin
22 believing this was a job interview, right?
23 A That is correct. 24 Q In fact, you told him during the course of the 25 in
terview that the job would pay anywhere between 50 and
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4675 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 75 thousand dollars a year; is that right?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q Okay.
4 And Frank Martin was trying to sell himself or
5 his services to you; is that right?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q It is not uncommon to puff a little about yourself
8 during the course of a job interview; is that right?
9 A Puffing a drop is common, yes.
10 Q And Frank Martin was trying to tell you what he
11 thought you wanted to hear; is that right?
12 A I can't comment on that, sir. I was not aware of
13 what was in Mr. Martin's mind.
14 Q Am I correct that what you wanted to hear, what you
15 wanted to record was information about Who's Who Worldwide
16 that might assist you in providing evidence for the
17 government in its i
nvestigation?
18 A That's an accurate statement, yes.
19 Q And if that is so, you wouldn't have to go to jail,
20 the eventual result?
21 A I can't answer the question with a yes or no, sir.
22 Q In substance, would I be correct in stating that
23 Frank Martin was trying to sell himself to you for a job, 24 just like you were trying to sell yourself to the 25 government for a reduced sentence?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4676 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A No. I can't make that analogy the way you made it.
2 Q Wouldn't it be fair to say that we had two people in
3 this interview both trying to make a sale? You trying to
4 sell yourself to them; he trying to sell himself to you?
5 A No. If you let me, I will tell you where your
6 analogy fails.
7 Q You are saying that that analogy doesn't apply?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q Am I correct that Mr. Martin was there in response to
10 an ad for a job?
11 A That is correct.
12 Q And am I correct that you were there at your
13 suggestion and with the approval of the government to
14 record people to further an investigation in support of
15 your cooperation agreement that you were hoping to
16 reduce -- lead to a reduced sentence for you?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q Thank you.
19 The only difference was that you knew all the
20 facts and he didn't; isn't that right?
21 A No, sir.
22 Q Now, you paid for the room and paid for the ad; is
23 that right? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And I believe you said yesterday when Mr. Jenks asked
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4677 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 you about it, you thought that this cooperation agreement
2 might well be worth a million
dollars to you, didn't you?
3 A I think philosophically, yes, that was my answer,
4 yes.
5 Q Isn't it correct that the amount it cost to run that
6 ad in the paper and be in the hotel room was just a drop
7 in the bucket as to what the price and value of this plea
8 agreement was?
9 A You are using an analogy hard to follow. Yes, it was
10 a valuable agreement and the amount of money was less in
11 comparison.
12 Q So, to invest your own money in order to facilitate
13 your potential cooperation by ensnaring people in this
14 hotel room to say whatever you could get them to say, was
15 virtually nothing in respect to the value of this million
16 dollar agreement; is that correct, sir?
17 A Sir, I can't answer the question the way you phrase
18 it.
19 Q I would like to turn to page 8 of the transcript at
20 this point, about half way down.
21
You start off by saying here, we are coming in a
22 different direction now. Umm, he had a lot of strange
23 things in his per -- most recent presentation. 24 You make that statement to him; is that right? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4678 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Q And when you say "he" you mean Bruce Gordon; is that
2 correct?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And Frank Martin is telling you he is willing to talk
5 to you about the presentation, he feels he is not
6 divulging anything, there is nothing to hide; is that
7 right? That's what he says to you?
8 A Which line are you at, sir.
9 Q The bottom line. Whatever questions you want. And I
10 don't feel like I'm divulging anything.
11 Is that what he says to you?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And turn to page 9.
14 Page 9, you tell him at the top, no, it's
15 nothing. He got it from me originally, so I mean, you are
16 not telling him anything that you don't already know as
17 what you are referring; is that right?
18 A No, sir.
19 Q Now, when you say he got it from me originally, what
20 you are inferring by that to Mr. Martin is that you are
21 telling him that you felt you were the true author of the
22 presentations that were being used by Who's Who Worldwide;
23 is that right? 24 A By the initial presentations taken from me. Not the 25 subsequent ones, yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4679 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Q All right.
2 As of January 1993, as I mentioned before, you
3 had never worked at Who's Who Worldwide; is that right?
4 A That's right.
5 Q And you had no direct knowledge whether the company
6 received nominations from other existi
ng members or not;
7 is that right?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q And you had no direct knowledge about the criteria
10 utilized by Who's Who Worldwide in selecting the segmented
11 aspects of the mailing list which they did use; is that
12 right?
13 A Not totally, no.
14 Q And you didn't specifically know anything about the
15 inner operation of Who's Who Worldwide other than your
16 belief that it was patented after your company; isn't that
17 right?
18 A No, sir, it is not accurate.
19 Q Well, you had worked there; isn't that correct?
20 A No, sir.
21 Q And you had not been inside the actual premises; is
22 that right?
23 A That is correct. 24 Q And you hadn't yourself ordered any of the mailings 25 done by them?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4680 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A Or
dered the mailings? ?
2 Q The mailing lists used by the company.
3 A Of course not.
4 Q You were not privy to the different levels of
5 screening used by the company after the lead cards came
6 back; is that right?
7 A That's right.
8 Q You didn't have their registry, did you?
9 A Not at that time, no.
10 Q You didn't have their plaque, did you?
11 A Not at that time.
12 Q Now, am I correct that on page 9 of the transcript
13 you state to Frank Martin, the presentation that I have
14 seen has a lot of puffing or exaggeration; isn't that
15 right?
16 A Which line, sir?
17 Q This is on page 9, approximately nine lines down?
18 A Yes. I see where it is, uh-huh.
19 Q Did you have a copy of their presentation at that
20 time?
21 A No, sir.
22 Q So you knew nothing about the operation of that
23 company; is that right?
24 A No, sir, not true. 25 Q And you had absolutely no basis of specific knowledge
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4681 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 as to whether or not the presentation was exaggerated
2 about his product at all; is that right?
3 A Yes. I had a basis, sir.
4 Q And that was just based on the solicitation letter
5 you received?
6 A No, sir, inaccurate.
7 Q You were lying to him what you knew about the
8 presentation; is that right?
9 A No, sir, that's not accurate.
10 Q I would like to play for you at this point a portion
11 of the tape, relating to page 9 of the transcript?
12 MR. NELSON: If you bear with me for a second,
13 Judge, I have to move the counter myself?
14 THE COURT: Surely.
15 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
16 proceedings.)
17 THE COURT: Ar
e you going to let us know when to
18 put the headphones on?
19 MR. NELSON: I apologize, Judge, I started the
20 portion.
21 THE COURT: All right, you better start it
22 again.
23 MR. NELSON: I apologize, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 (Tape is played.)
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4682 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 MR. NELSON: I am stopping at this point to ask
2 some questions.
3 Q Now, on page 9 of the transcript, where you ask
4 Mr. Martin where is the presentation inconsistent with
5 reality, he pauses for quite some period of time before he
6 responds to you; is that right?
7 A At least five or six seconds, yes, sir.
8 Q Am I correct that then Frank Martin tells you he
9 suspects the major flaw was telling people that they were
10 recommended by other members; is that right?
1
1 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And he doesn't actually say he knows this, he says he
13 suspects it; is that right?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q And because he pauses it is fair that he had to think
16 about the response; is that right?
17 A I can't say that a pause for six seconds indicates
18 that particular thing.
19 MR. NELSON: I would like to play the next
20 portion of the transcript.
21 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, so I can refresh my
22 memory to these questions, I believe there is a document,
23 which is a transcript of a tape that was made in January, 24 I believe, at the U.S. post office of Who's Who 25 Worldwide. It might help me to be more responsive to the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4683 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 question if I can see a copy of the document.
2 THE COURT: No. That is not possible nor proper
3
at this time.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
5 MR. NELSON: Thank you.
6 (Tape is played.)
7 Q Now, am I correct that Frank Martin goes on to tell
8 you here, starting on page 9 of the transcript, that there
9 was a way to combat the problem as it related to
10 nominations?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And that means that the lack of nominations for
13 members; is that correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And Frank Martin tells you the way to combat it is to
16 actually ask members for recommendations for existing
17 members; is that right?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q And this interview was conducted on January 20th,
20 1993; is that right?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q And are you aware that Frank Martin returned to Who's
23 Who Worldwide around the end of November 1994? 24 A In a general sense, yes. 25 Q And are you aware that commencing just a few months
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4684 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 after Frank Martin left the company, Who's Who Worldwide
2 implemented this idea of his, and indeed established the
3 procedure to have existing members nominate new members?
4 A No, I am not aware of that, sir.
5 Q Are you aware that by 1994, when Frank Martin
6 returned, the new membership packages shipped to new
10 Q Are you aware that Tribute Magazine, which was being
11 published and sent to members upon Frank Martin's return
12 in 1994 specifically provided a nomination pull out for
13 members to send to the company to nominate for membership?
14 A I saw that yesterday, yes.
15 Q And I believe I showed you that in the Tribut
e
16 Magazine in Exhibit D; is that right?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q And are you aware that nominations were indeed being
19 received from members and used to recruit new members,
20 starting in the summer of 1994, or before Frank Martin
21 returned to the company?
22 A I have no awareness of that.
23 Q Would you agree that Frank Martin -- withdrawn. 24 Are you aware that by the time Frank Martin 25 agreed to return to the company in late 1994, an
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4685 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 ever-increasing number of new members were being acquired
2 as a result of their nomination by established members?
3 A I have no knowledge of that, sir.
4 Q Would you agree, sir, that when Frank Martin returned
5 to the company in November of 1994, these procedures were
6 in place, and Frank Martin was aware tha
t the procedures
7 was in place, that he would say that his knowledge to the
8 major flaw, as he perceived it during his interview with
9 you in January of 1993 had been resolved prior to his
10 agreement to return to the company?
11 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no, sir.
12 Q I would like you to turn to, about a quarter of the
13 way down page 10 of the transcript.
14 Am I correct that Frank Martin tells you here
15 about what he perceived to be a problem in billing for the
16 publication at the back end?
17 A Would you read me the section you are referring to,
18 please?
19 Q It starts off with you stating by '97's -- he says
20 other publication, and Mr. Martin says, which to me is a
21 very unique concept, because to me, I find that if you ask
22 for the money up front you get the whole ball of wax; you
23 see that section? 24 A Ye
s, sir. 25 Q He told you that he didn't understand why the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4686 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 customer was billed for the publication at the end of the
2 year; is that correct?
3 A That's the sum and substance of it.
4 Q In fact, he states to you after you continue down
5 after your statement, for some ungodly reason, he, he,
6 bills them for the publication at the end of the year; is
7 that right?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Okay.
10 Now, am I correct that Who's Who Worldwide, as
11 did your publication, sell memberships all year long?
12 A No.
13 Q You didn't sell memberships throughout the 12 months
14 of the year?
15 A Our strategy was not to sell memberships at all.
16 Q You sold the publication; is that correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And you only released the registry once
a year?
19 A There were multiple registries, as they were ready,
20 they were released.
21 Q And it usually would be once a year or maybe twice a
22 year that a particular registry would be released; is that
23 right? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q And are you familiar with New York State general
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4687 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 business law Section 396M?
2 A No.
3 Q And are you aware, sir, that general business law
4 Section 396M, subdivision 3B, provided -- let me first
5 read the caption for the statute. It is mail order or
6 telephone order merchandise.
7 I am correct, am I not, that your business was a
8 mail or telephone order business?
9 A Yes, sir,.
10 Q And it operated within the State of New York; is that
11 correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And were you awa
re, sir, that this section of the
14 General Business Law provides no person, partnership,
15 firm, association or agent or employee thereof who
16 conducts a mail order business, or a telephone order
17 business shall, subdivision B, accept orders for
18 merchandise which is not reasonably anticipated to be
19 available for shipment within thirty days from the day of
20 receipt of the order together with payment, or with charge
21 account authorization in the case of an order remitted
22 through the mail, or within thirty days from the date the
23 seller debits the buyer's account in the case of an order 24 placed by telephone? Were you familiar with that section 25 of the law, sir?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4688 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A No, sir.
2 Q Would I be correct in stating, sir, that since the
3 registry
only came out once per year, and the business was
4 going on on a daily basis soliciting people to purchase
5 the registry, this section prohibits the sale by telephone
6 to anyone other than the person whose would purchase the
7 registry within thirty days of the date within which the
8 registry was available of the day available to ship to
9 them.
10 A I can't answer that question, sir.
11 MR. NELSON: I would ask the Court to take
12 judicial notice of this particular statute at this time.
13 THE COURT: If it is relevant for me to do it, I
14 would take judicial notice. I am not sure that it is at
15 this point.
16 MR. NELSON: Thank you, your Honor. I will renew
17 my application later.
18 THE COURT: For the time being I will take
19 judicial notice of that statute.
20 MR. NELSON: Thank you, your Honor.
21 Q Would I be correct, sir, that unless th
e company
22 split billed for the registry -- in other words, taking a
23 sum initially, and then a final sum within thirty days of 24 the date that the registry was available for shipment, it 25 would be in violation of the statute?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4689 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A I am not sure what the balance of the statute says,
2 sir. You read me only part of it.
3 Q Would I be correct, sir, that if the interpretation I
4 have been providing to you is so, that it would provide a
5 full explanation as to the reasons why Who's Who Worldwide
6 actually did split bill and hold back on the final sum of
7 money so that he could be in compliance with the section?
8 A It might, sir.
9 Q Okay.
10 I would like to turn to page 11 of the
11 transcript, toward the stop -- I am sorry, actually page
12 10
at the bottom.
13 You asked what else in this presentation --
14 A Pardon me, sir, where are you?
15 Q Page 10, three lines from the bottom.
16 You asked Mr. Martin what else in his
17 presentation -- now turning to the top of page 11, he
18 mentions first the credit card, and he indicates to you
19 that the credit card doesn't exist as of yet, but it is
20 under negotiation; is that correct?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q And he goes on to indicate, the same as the software,
23 the software package is in abeyance; are you aware of 24 that? 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4690 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Q And are you presently aware, sir, upon Frank Martin's
2 return to the company in November of 1994, Who's Who
3 Worldwide did indeed provide the members with a Master
4 Card membership through MBNA,
which had the company logo
5 on it?
6 A You showed me that information in Tribute Magazine,
7 sir.
8 Q And are you presently aware that upon Frank Martin's
9 return in November of 1994, the company did in fact have a
10 viable and interactive CD-ROM for networking available for
11 members willing to purchase it?
12 A I am aware that they had a CD-ROM, yes, sir.
13 Q Again, would you agree, sir, that if upon Frank
14 Martin's return to Who's Who Worldwide, he knew this, then
15 he would have returned to the company where these problems
16 which were raised during your interview with him had been
17 resolved prior to his agreeing to return to the company?
18 A As it relates to these particular problems, yes, sir.
19 Q Okay.
20 I would like to turn to page 13 of the
21 transcript, and I direct your attention to five lines
22 down, starting with what is
he paying the salespeople, and
23 I would like to play for you this portion of the tape at 24 this time. 25 THE COURT: Maybe we better do that after we
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4691 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 return.
2 MR. NELSON: Yes, your Honor.
3 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we will take a
4 recess for lunch.
5 Please do not discuss the case. Keep an open
6 mind. We will recess until 1:30.
7 Have a nice lunch.
8 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the
9 courtroom.)
10 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, can we discuss one thing
11 before lunch?
12 THE COURT: Yes.
13 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, a couple of things.
14 First, in terms of scheduling --
15 THE COURT: You can be excused, Mr. Watstein. Be
16 back prior to 1:30, please.
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
18 MR. WHITE:
That's what I was going to address.
19 In trying to accommodate both Mr. West's
20 schedule, and the schedule of the two other witnesses from
21 out of town today, if acceptable, I was going to stop
22 Mr. West and put the two other people on who I think will
23 consume the afternoon. 24 THE COURT: Will we be able to finish both of 25 those persons if we do that?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4692
1 MR. WHITE: I believe so, your Honor. They are
2 both customers. And I think if we have the entire
3 afternoon they will be -- that will consume the
4 afternoon. And they would both safely get in there.
5 MR. NELSON: Your Honor, I would like to be
6 accommodating as possible to everyone's schedule. But I
7 would like to not break the continuity of my
8 cross-examination, since I am in the middle of the
9 transcri
pt myself.
10 THE COURT: How long is your cross-examination
11 going to take?
12 MR. NELSON: I believe it is about an hour,
13 Judge.
14 THE COURT: I will let you conclude the last
15 session, the last part, where you say -- how much more are
16 you going to go with this transcript?
17 MR. NELSON: I would say that it would take about
18 a half an hour, Judge. If I can just finish the
19 transcript, and then I would break.
20 THE COURT: I will let you finish the transcript,
21 and then we will break.
22 MR. NELSON: Thank you.
23 MR. SCHOER: Judge -- 24 MR. WHITE: I have a few other issues. 25 THE COURT: Go ahead.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4693
1 MR. WHITE: One, the Court asked for the
2 government's request to charge which I have.
3 THE COURT: Bring it up. Have you served the
4 copies on counsel?
5 MR. WHITE: Yes.
6 The other issue is the Court gave the government
7 a chance to do research on the issue of a prior consistent
8 statement, and the statement of Ms. Benjamin about what
9 Ms. Gaspar said to her?
10 THE COURT: Yes.
11 MR. WHITE: I did that. And my recollection is
12 your Honor asked us to address the issue of just how
13 consistent a so-called prior consistent statement had to
14 be.
15 The research I did, which I can provide to your
16 Honor, is I found that there were only two circuits that
17 had addressed that issue. The Second Circuit was not
18 among them, your Honor.
19 The two circuits addressed it precisely was the
20 Third Circuit in 1991, and the Fifth Circuit, 1988. And
21 both of them said that the testimony need not be
22 identical. One says generally consistent is acceptable.
23 T
he other one says consistent for the most part is 24 sufficient. 25 Even Weinstein Evidence says a prior statement
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4694
1 need not be identical in every detail to the trial
2 testimony to be considered consistent. The test of
3 admissibility is whether a reasonable mind would accept
4 the central thrust of the prior statement as being
5 consistent with the witness' in court testimony.
6 The one case that your Honor mentioned
7 previously, United States v. Quinto, sets forth the test,
8 but then it doesn't address that element of it, how
9 consistent the case has to be. There they ruled against
10 the statement having been admissible, because they said
11 the statement was not made before the motive to falsify
12 arose, which was another one of the elements.
13 As far as I can tell these
are the only two cases
14 of any circuit addressing the issue. And they are both
15 more liberal in admissibility than what has been suggested
16 previously.
17 THE COURT: I don't recall exactly because I have
18 not thought about it recently, and you obviously have.
19 I recall that the prior consistent statement was
20 that she came out of a meeting very upset and angry, or
21 something about something that was said to her. That is
22 in substance of what I recall.
23 Isn't that so? 24 MR. WHITE: Yes. The statement is a little more 25 detailed.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4695
1 THE COURT: Why is that a prior consistent
2 statement as to her being told to do something
3 unlawfully?
4 MR. WHITE: For several reasons, your Honor.
5 First of all, the timing is such, when you
6 compare the
two women's testimony, the two witness'
7 testimony, that it was about the same time. That
8 Ms. Gaspar was told to prepare the logs and prepared them
9 between September 9th and September 23rd, 1994.
10 Ms. Benjamin places this conversation with Ms. Gaspar as a
11 few weeks or several weeks before Ms. Gaspar left the
12 company.
13 THE COURT: Mr. White, it is now 25 minutes to
14 1:00. You are now intruding on the lunch hours of
15 everybody. This is not an urgent matter. It has waited
16 for weeks now. And I know you are anxious to apprise the
17 Court of the successful conclusions of your research.
18 I still feel it is not a consistent statement
19 because it is not consistent or inconsistent or anything
20 else with respect to what was said. It is just that she
21 feels upset. That's all. It doesn't say I feel upset
22 because they made me make the log entries.
23 MR. WHITE: She does say she is upset because of 24 something Mr. Gordon and Mr. Reffsin told her what to do. 25 THE COURT: It could be that they cut down her
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4696
1 lunch hour. That upsets people all the time, doesn't it,
2 Mr. White?
3 MR. WHITE: I am learning that that is true, yes.
4 THE COURT: It could have been that. It could
5 have been that they denied her a raise or promotion or a
6 vacation. It could have been that they didn't like the
7 giants cutting Dave Brown. I don't know what it was that
8 they didn't like. That's my point. It is not
9 sufficiently consistent. And maybe we ought to have the
10 Second Circuit take a look at it at long last. But I will
11 let you go into this at 5:00 o'clock this afternoon.
12 MR. WHITE: That's fine. I didn't mean to hold
13 up
lunch.
14 THE COURT: So we will not prevent all these
15 people from eating lunch, starting with me.
16 1:30.
17 MR. JENKS: At 5:00 o'clock I will let Mr. Schoer
18 stand in, I have to be in the city at 6:00 o'clock,
19 Manhattan.
20 THE COURT: Is that all right with you,
21 Mr. Schoer?
22 MR. SCHOER: Yes.
23 THE COURT: Is that all right with you and your 24 client? 25 MR. JENKS: My client is not here.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4697
1 THE COURT: How about the client's officer?
2 MR. JENKS: I will speak to Mr. Gordon.
3 MR. TRABULUS: I thought the trustee controls the
4 corporations.
5 THE COURT: He is the corporations' officer.
6 (Luncheon Recess.)
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
1
8
19
20
21
22
23 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4698
1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N
2
3 (The following takes place in the absence of the
4 jury.)
5 THE COURT: Did you give me the two cases you
6 found?
7 MR. WHITE: Did I or will I?
8 THE COURT: You should. I don't want you to do
9 all this work for nothing. I may use them for future
10 use. Not necessarily on this case, but on other cases.
11 MR. WHITE: That is what is worrying me.
12 It is --
13 THE COURT: Are those extra copies?
14 MR. WHITE: No. But I will give you my copies.
15 THE COURT: I don't wish to take your only copy,
16 but I take the citations.
17 THE CLERK: Jury entering.
18 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the
19 courtroom.)
20
THE COURT: Let me have them and I will give it
21 right back to you.
22 Please be seated, members of the jury.
23 You may proceed. 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4699
1 S T E V E N W A T S T E I N ,
2 called as a witness, having been previously
3 duly sworn, was examined and testified as
4 follows:
5
6 THE COURT: You may proceed.
7 MR. NELSON: Thank you, your Honor.
8 To refresh the Court and the jury's mind, I was
9 on page 13 of the transcript, five lines down, starting
10 with the statement, what is he paying the salespeople, and
11 I will play a portion of the transcript at this time, with
12 the Court's permission.
13 THE COURT: Yes.
14 (Tape is played.)
15
16 CROSS-EXAMINATION (Cont'd)
17 BY MR. NELSON:
18 Q Mr. West, am I correct tha
t the discussion here is in
19 response to the inquiry of what Bruce Gordon pays his
20 sales staff?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Am I correct that Frank Martin states that Who's Who
23 Worldwide did not offer bonuses or spiffs, S P I F F S, or 24 anything like that? 25 A That's correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4700 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Q And that would be as incentives to the phone sales
2 personnel for additional sales; is that right? That's
3 what it would be for; is that correct?
4 A That is correct.
5 Q And am I correct that this discussion concerning
6 remuneration about bonus money concerns giving bonus money
7 for maximizing the number of sales; is that right?
8 A That isn't necessarily correct, sir.
9 Q Well, am I correct that Frank Martin specifically
10 states he thinks bonuses, quote, ki
nd of downgrades the
11 whole concept of what you're doing; is that correct? Is
12 that what he states?
13 A You are quoting it without the balance of the context
14 there.
15 Q Is that what he states there?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And am I correct that Frank Martin states that he
18 agrees that it is a correct thing to do, to not offer
19 bonus money as an incentive for additional sales? That's
20 what he is saying; isn't that right?
21 A That is correct.
22 Q All right.
23 Now, would I be correct in stating that what the 24 concept of Who's Who Worldwide is supposed to be is to 25 offer membership in an exclusive membership organization;
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4701 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 is that right?
2 A That's the concept, yes, sir.
3 Q And am I correct that offering bonuses for maximiz
ing
4 the number of sales would run counter to the company's
5 claim of exclusivity of membership, correct?
6 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no, sir.
7 Q Well, would I be correct, if Frank Martin says that
8 offering bonuses is inappropriate because it downgrades
9 the whole concept of what you're doing; is that right?
10 A That's his quotation.
11 Q And so, he agrees that exclusivity is maintained by
12 not offering bonus money to the sales staff; isn't that
13 right?
14 A I don't see him making the inductive leap in that, if
15 that's what you are saying.
16 Q Are his words it downgrades the concept of what we
17 are doing, yes or no?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Towards the bottom of page 13, Frank Martin mentions
20 something about a lawsuit for the use of the name Who's
21 Who; is that correct?
22 A What number are you on, sir?
23 Q On page 13. I believe you start off by saying, I 24 heard that he had won the request for preliminary -- 25 excuse me, it is a few lines above that. It is ten lines
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4702 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 up where Frank Martin states of Who's Who International,
2 you know, he had, umm, a lawsuit out there, I guess he
3 couldn't use the word.
4 Do you see that?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q Am I correct that toward the bottom of the page,
7 Frank Martin states he was advised by Bruce Gordon, both
8 at the bottom of the page and the beginning of page 13,
9 that Bruce Gordon had won the lawsuit? He says on page
10 13, you know, we have a lawsuit out there, I guess he
11 couldn't, umm. And then he supposedly won the lawsuit?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q That's something Mr. Martin says; is that right?
1
4 A Correct.
15 Q Am I correct that you then go on to tell him that
16 this information is incorrect, that Bruce Gordon only won
17 the preliminary injunction; is that right?
18 A That's what I said.
19 Q And is that something that the postal inspectors had
20 advised you that Who's Who only one the preliminary
21 injunction?
22 A I don't have a recollection on that, sir.
23 Q Am I correct in stating, that you knew as far as the 24 Reed and the Who's Who lawsuit as early of January 1993; 25 is that right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4703 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A That is correct.
2 Q And Frank Martin goes on to tell you on page 14,
3 well, Bruce Gordon told his people that; is that right?
4 A What line are you on, sir?
5 Q I am sorry, it is actually the bottom of page 13, two
6 lines up from the b
ottom, well, that's what he told his
7 people; is that correct?
8 A Right. That's what it says.
9 Q Okay.
10 And on the top of page 14 Frank Martin states,
11 but then, again, whatever he tells his people is what he
12 wants his people to hear; is that right?
13 A That's what he says, sir.
14 Q Okay.
15 So, the only information that Frank Martin or his
16 salespeople would have had in January of 1993 about the
17 suit between Reed and Who's Who, would have come from
18 Bruce Gordon; is that correct?
19 A No, sir. It is not correct.
20 Q Well, that's what Mr. Martin is telling you; isn't
21 that right, that the information he has is based upon what
22 Bruce Gordon would tell him; is that right?
23 A He didn't say "only", sir. 24 Q Did he say again that he tells his people what he 25 wants to hear?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, C
M OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4704 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q And did he say on the page before that that Bruce
3 Gordon advised him that he had won the lawsuit?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q Okay.
6 So, would it be fair to say then, sir, that
7 information that Frank Martin told you that he had, or at
8 least the basis of what he had is from Bruce Gordon? Is
9 that what he says during the course of the interview; yes
10 or no?
11 A He said a basis, and not the basis --
12 Q Apparently you knew more about the information than
13 Frank Martin did, because had to contract him and tell him
14 he only won the preliminary injunction and not the
15 lawsuit?
16 A It is possible.
17 Q That's correct, isn't it?
18 A I indicated my knowledge.
19 Q And he didn't know that; isn't that right?
20 A That's what he indicated.
21 Q I would like to turn to page 17 of the transcript,
22 about halfway down.
23 Am I correct that you state, was everybody 24 accepted there, if, if, unintelligible, a person breathing 25 would buy a membership, I mean, would? Is that something
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4705 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 you say to Mr. Martin?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q And you then go on to state three lines below that,
4 short of a porno shop or a murderer; right?
5 A I believe he states that, sir.
6 Q Well, you state the words, short of a porno shop, or
7 a murderer; is that right?
8 A In response to what he said, yes.
9 Q Am I correct that Frank Martin tells you right after
10 that, really, there are quite a few shops out there, that
11 that deal in, in, in, in, in borderline type of, you
12 wouldn't take used car dealers? Do
es he say that to you?
13 A Yes, he does.
14 Q Frank Martin also agrees with you that a porno shop
15 owner would not be an acceptable candidate for Who's Who
16 Worldwide; is that correct?
17 A That's what he says, sir.
18 Q I don't mean this as a joke, but not some business
19 establishments that sell pornographic material
20 multimillion dollar businesses?
21 A Yes, I assume they are.
22 Q And obviously the owner of such a business would be
23 quite a wealthy persons as well; is that right? 24 A Possibly. 25 Q And the owner of that business may become involved in
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4706 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 other forms of more reputable businesses based upon the
2 money he earns from a pornographic business, right?
3 A Possibly.
4 Q And it wouldn't be unusual for the owner of such a
5 business that parlays it into a more socially acceptable
6 form of business, might then subscribe to periodicals such
7 as Fortune magazine, or magazines of that nature; is that
8 correct?
9 A It is possible.
10 Q And that type of a person might well be that kind of
11 a person that might be on the selected mailing list that
12 was utilized by Who's Who Worldwide; is that right?
13 A Yes, he might have been on the mailing list, yes.
14 Q And even in jest Frank Martin makes clear that such a
15 person would not be acceptable as a member in Who's Who
16 Worldwide; is that right?
17 A Yes, he does.
18 Q So, I am correct that Frank Martin stated that there
19 are some forms of business, no matter how large, that
20 Who's Who would not accept the principal of that business
21 for membership because of the nature of the business that
22 the person was e
ngaging in; is that correct?
23 A Yes, he made that statement. 24 Q And Frank Martin goes on to tell you that Bruce 25 Gordon would not accept a used car dealer for membership;
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4707 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 is that right?
2 A Yes, he does.
3 Q But Frank Martin tells you he thought possibly a used
4 car dealer can be turned around, after all, there must be
5 some reason that that person was on the list? Right, he
6 tells you that?
7 A Yes, he does.
8 Q Am I correct that part of the marketing procedure as
9 you understood it to be in Who's Who Worldwide, as it was
10 in your company, to some extent, was that there was a
11 telephone interview by someone who worked in the sales
12 staff after receipt of the lead card from the person who
13 was solicited?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q Am I correct that this was to be a qualifying
16 interview where a person was to be asked about his or her
17 business?
18 A That was the theory of it, yes.
19 Q Am I correct that Frank Martin is stating to you here
20 that a qualifying interview permits a further level of
21 screening to determine the qualifications of the people
22 who are being called from these lists in solicitations; is
23 that right? He is telling you the person could be turned 24 around from the list; is that right? 25 A The word "turned around" you may not be interpreting
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4708 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 properly, sir.
2 Q Well, you might have your interpretation. Mr. Martin
3 tells you that a used car dealer might be capable of being
4 turned around because there must be a reason why he is on
5 the list; i
s that right?
6 A That's his phrase.
7 Q All right. Now am I correct that someone who is a
8 salesperson might call up the used car dealer and find out
9 the used car dealer actually owns not one, but ten used
10 car dealerships, and is the largest used car dealer in the
11 New York City metropolitan area; that's a possibility,
12 right?
13 A Absolutely.
14 Q And I assume you heard, especially since you live in
15 Florida now, of Wayne Huzinga, H U Z I N G A, the owner of
16 Blockbuster now; is that right?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Are you aware he started his business empire by being
19 a used car dealer?
20 A No, he didn't, sir.
21 Q You are not aware he was involved in first scrap and
22 then a used car business?
23 A There is a difference -- 24 Q First he was in scrap and then used car business? 25 A First scrap, then videos and then used
car business,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4709 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 sir.
2 Q Am I correct in stating that despite your product,
3 Frank Martin told you, you know, there are people, one,
4 that no matter how much money they earn because of the
5 nature of their business, we are not taking, we are not
6 bringing in the porno king, no matter how much money the
7 man makes? Did he not tell you that?
8 A Yes, he did.
9 Q He is also saying, you know, in a qualifying
10 interview we can find out that a business while a person
11 has on paper, while it might sound derogatory or something
12 you may not want to get your hands into, is actually an
13 accomplished, good business, for which that person is very
14 much a business leader; is that right?
15 A Yes, as it relates to used cars, yes, sir.
16 Q Now, am I c
orrect that despite your prodding him with
17 these questions, Frank Martin up to that point did not
18 qualifyingly state to you that all applicants are
19 accepted, that is what he is saying to you up to that
20 point; is that right?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q And am I correct that you then go on to say to him,
23 you got him by saying that 99 percent accepted, isn't that 24 right; that's the words you used? Those are your words; 25 is that right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4710 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 A I don't think I used that emphasis in my words.
2 Q Did you use those words?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q Do you say 99 percent is accepted; is that right?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q And it is only at that point in the discussion, with
7 you having suggested, exactly what it is that you wanted
8 to hear that Frank Martin
follows by saying, I would say
9 so, so long as they have the money, as long as they
10 weren't outright, you know, he laughs, and you agree; is
11 that right?
12 A I can't answer that question with a yes or no, sir.
13 Q Why don't you read what it says here in the
14 transcript, and we will start on page 17, four lines up
15 from the bottom.
16 A Certainly.
17 Q Am I correct that you state, but 99 percent were
18 accepted. Is that what you're saying?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Are those your words?
21 A Exactly.
22 Q And that's right after he told you about the used car
23 dealer and they wouldn't accept someone who what I was -- 24 who was a porno king; is that right? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4711 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Q And he goes on to say, yeah, I would say so, if they
2 got the money, as long as they weren't outright totally,
3 umm, you just, you know, sure, laughing, yeah, laughter,
4 really.
5 And then you say, I gotcha.
6 I guess you accomplished your entrapment here on
7 Mr. Martin. Chalk one up, wasn't it?
8 MR. WHITE: Objection.
9 THE COURT: Sustained.
10 MR. NELSON: Withdraw the question.
11 Q Now, you previously testified the secretly taped
12 meeting on January -- January 1993 with Mr. Martin was a
13 job interview, disguised?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And you made it clear between the prior discussion
16 between your wife and him that you were setting up new
17 companies; is that right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Implicit in setting up a new company like Who's Who
20 Worldwide, was in fact your new company would compete with
21 Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?
22 A Not necessarily.
23 Q You were
going to be in the same market, selling a 24 similar form of product; is that right? 25 A That's a fair statement.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4712 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Q And you were looking for people who previously worked
2 for those companies?
3 A That is correct.
4 Q Correct?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q And it would be fair to say, would it not, that there
7 was some level of competition that would be taking place?
8 A Some level would be fair, yes.
9 Q Now, you were aware based on your interview with
10 Mr. Martin that he had been fired from Who's Who; is that
11 right?
12 A He didn't use that phrase.
13 Q He had left under terms not the most favorable
14 between he and Mr. Gordon; is that right?
15 A I can't answer it with a yes or no, sir.
16 Q Apparently it was apparent from the record
ing there
17 was no love lost between Mr. Frank Martin and Bruce Gordon
18 during the time of the interview?
19 A Not correct, sir.
20 Q You knew he was looking for a new job?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And you knew he was unemployed at the time of the
23 interview; is that right? 24 A That is correct. 25 Q And you were pretending to be the person who was
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4713 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 going to hire him; is that correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And in fact, you told him that the job you had in
4 mind was budgeted between 50 and 75 thousand dollars per
5 year plus incentives; is that right?
6 A That is correct.
7 Q And obviously he would be looking to please you
8 during this interview; is that right?
9 A If you define the word "please" as I would, yes, sir.
10 Q He was looking
for a job; is that right?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And since Frank Martin was looking for a job, surely
13 you suspected that he was willing to give you the
14 responses for the questions you would telegraph to him you
15 were looking for; isn't that right, sir?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q You knew what you were looking for when you went into
18 that interview?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q You were looking to stay out of jail, weren't you,
21 sir?
22 A No, sir.
23 Q Now, you were unaware at the time you conducted this 24 interview on January 20th, 1993, about Frank Martin's 25 knowledge as to where the solicitation list which was used
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4714 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 by Who's Who Worldwide was acquired; isn't that right?
2 A Would you repeat the question, please?
3 Q Sure.
4 You
were unaware at the time you conducted this
5 interview as to Mr. Martin's knowledge about where the
6 solicitation lists used by Who's Who Worldwide were
7 acquired?
8 A You mean the mailing lists?
9 Q Yes.
10 A Yes. I was unaware.
11 Q And you didn't ask him anything about that during the
12 interview, didn't you?
13 A That's correct.
14 Q And you were aware -- you didn't ask if Frank Martin
15 was familiar with any procedure employed by the company to
16 screen the returned lead cards before they were
17 distributed to the telemarketers, did you?
18 A I did not ask him that question.
19 Q And you didn't care to ask him any questions about
20 that either, did you?
21 A No, that's not true.
22 Q Did you ask it then?
23 A No, sir. 24 Q You didn't care to ask him if the sales managers 25 screened the lead cards before they
were submitted to the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4715 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 sales staff prior to the interview?
2 A I can't respond to, didn't care to.
3 Q Did you ask him that?
4 A No, sir.
5 Q And you are not aware, am I correct, sir, that you
6 are not aware if Frank Martin was familiar with any
7 procedure that was used by the company to review the
8 completed sales prior to billing as a final level of
9 screening, were you?
10 A I don't believe that's a topic that we discussed.
11 Q And you didn't ask him that either, did you?
12 A That is correct.
13 Q Because that's not the type of information you were
14 paying for in purchasing the ad and the room? You only
15 wanted information that could incriminate; isn't that
16 right?
17 A No, sir, that's not correct.
18 Q I would like to
turn to the transcript, page 18,
19 about half way down the page.
20 You asked Mr. Martin a question, was there much
21 confusion between Marquis at all, between Marquis and your
22 company, the people not known, one from the other? Do you
23 recall asking him that question? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q And am I correct in the middle of page 18, Frank
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4716 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Martin made clear that there was a specific objection
2 provided to the sellers to make clear the difference
3 between the two companies?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q Okay.
6 I would like to turn your attention to page 22 of
7 the transcript, three lines down.
8 Am I correct that you go on to ask Mr. Martin
9 again, what other problems does Bruce Gordon have; is that
10 correct?
11 A Yes.
12 Q A
nd Frank Martin tells you that Bruce Gordon is
13 greedy and he doesn't like Bruce Gordon's personality, but
14 there is no mention of any other conduct Frank Martin
15 considers improper; is that right?
16 A That is correct.
17 Q Am I correct that you try again, again asking Frank
18 Martin towards the middle of the page, anything else in
19 the pitch that you think he's vulnerable on now? Did you
20 ask him that question?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q And, again, although Frank Martin offers you a copy
23 of the pitch, he makes no mention of anything else he 24 finds problematic in the presentation; is that correct? 25 A There were no additional items mentioned, yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4717 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 Q Now, turning to the bottom of page 22, you go on to
2 tell Frank Martin, and this is six lines
up from the
3 bottom, that the trauma you went through taught you quite
4 a lesson; is that right?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q And the trauma you are speaking about was the arrest;
7 is that correct?
8 A The entire experience, not just the arrest.
9 Q After all, would I be correct that a lot of people in
10 the industry knew that you were arrested and were in
11 trouble for running your business fraudulently?
12 A That is correct.
13 Q And certainly it appears that Frank Martin was aware
14 of this; is that right?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q And the lesson you were taught was any further
17 business venture you would enter would be strictly
18 legitimate; isn't that right?
19 A I didn't say that, sir.
20 Q Is that the lesson you learned as you sit here today?
21 A Yes, sir, it is, but it is not what I said here.
22 Q So, you meant to deceive him dur
ing the meeting, but
23 not us here today; is that right? 24 A No, that's not responsive to what I am saying. 25 Q I would like to direct your attention to the very end
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4718 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 of the transcript, on page 33 -- 23, five lines up from
2 the bottom.
3 Am I correct that the last statement Frank Martin
4 makes while you recorded this regarding his opinion of
5 Who's Who Worldwide is, I enjoyed the concept. See,
6 that's what I like about Who's Who Worldwide, I like the
7 concept. I think it's sound. I think it as viable. I
8 think it's highly profitable, if, if utilized properly.
9 Is that the last thing that Mr. Martin says to
10 you about Who's Who Worldwide?
11 A Yes, sir. On the tape, yes, sir.
12 Q And he is saying this to you immediately after you
13 have t
old him that you learned your lesson from the trauma
14 of being arrested; is that right?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q It appears that Frank Martin tells you he believes in
17 the concept of Who's Who Worldwide; is that right?
18 A The economic concept, yes.
19 Q Unfortunately your tape dies here; is that right?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And we don't know what Frank Martin goes on to tell
22 you about the faith in the products; is that right?
23 A That's right. 24 MR. NELSON: I think this might be a good time 25 nor me to break. I have completed going through the tape.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4719 Watstein-cross/Nelson
1 THE COURT: Thank you very much, Mr. Nelson.
2 Members of the jury, as I told you at the
3 beginning of the trial, a long, long time ago -- well,
4 come to think of it not that long. I have to cheer you
5 up. But I did tell you from time to time we will
6 interrupt the normal flow of the trial in order to put on
7 witnesses who are here for a short period of time and from
8 distant places. And this is one of those periods of
9 time. So we will interrupt the testimony of Steven
10 Watstein.
11 You will excuse us, Mr. Watstein.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 (Whereupon, at this time the witness left the
14 witness stand.)
15 THE COURT: And we will let the government put on
16 two other witnesses.
17 You may proceed.
18 MS. SCOTT: Thank you, your Honor.
19 The government calls Marilyn Price.
20 THE COURT: Raise your right hand, please.
21
22 M A R I L Y N L E E P R I C E ,
23 called as a witness, having been first 24 duly sworn, was examined and testified 25 as follows:
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REP
ORTER 4720
1
2 THE COURT: Please be seated, state your full
3 name and spell your last name.
4 THE WITNESS: Marilyn Lee Price, Price,
5 P R I C E.
6
7 DIRECT EXAMINATION
8 BY MS. SCOTT:
9 Q Good afternoon, Ms. Price.
10 A Good afternoon.
11 Q Can you tell us where you live?
12 A Marino Valley, California.
13 THE COURT: Would you tap the microphone,
14 please.
15 And pull it a little closer to you.
16 Q What do you do for a living, Ms. Price?
17 A I own an escrow company.
18 THE COURT: You own an escrow company?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
20 Q What do you do in terms of that business?
21 A I am an escrow officer and office manager.
22 Q How long have you owned this business?
23 A 26 years. 24 Q And when you say you are an escrow officer, what does 25 that mean?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4721 Price-direct/Scott
1 A That means that I prepare escrow documents, prepare
2 the contracts for the purchase and sale of real property.
3 I prepare the documents to transfer title. I prepare
4 trustee mortgage documents. I cause them to be recorded
5 when all conditions have been met, and title insurance is
6 issued.
7 Q And are you involved in any other activities in your
8 community other than what you do at your job?
9 A Yes. I do volunteer work for certain children's
10 organizations, for battered and abused children, and with
11 Veteran's Administration for the Vietnam war veterans.
12 Q And how long have you been involved in volunteer
13 activities?
14 A About ten years.
15 Q Have you ever heard of a company called Who's Who
16 Worldwide?
17 A Yes, I have.
18
Q Did you eventually purchase a membership from that
19 company?
20 A Yes, I did.
21 Q Can you tell us how you were first contacted by Who's
22 Who Worldwide?
23 A I received a letter in the mail which stated that I 24 had been nominated by someone in my profession for 25 inclusion in their membership. There was a membership
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4722 Price-direct/Scott
1 form for me to fill out and send in.
2 Q Did you fill out that form?
3 A Yes, I did.
4 Q What happened -- did you mail that form in to the
5 address on the form?
6 A Yes, I did.
7 Q And what happened after you mailed that form in?
8 A I received a call from Who's Who Worldwide in New
9 York, going through my questionnaire, and inviting me to
10 supply my name for membership.
11 Q And can you tell us what you were
told in that phone
12 conversation?
13 A Yes. I was told that a local real estate broker who
14 had been a member of Who's Who Worldwide had nominated me
15 for membership, and I had a very brief time to make up my
16 mind; that it was a very exclusive group of people, with
17 some of the biggest movers and shakers in real estate, up
18 to and including Donald Trump. When I joined this
19 organization, if I was allowed to join, only ten percent
20 of the people nominated actually made it into the group,
21 and given that opportunity other fields would open up to
22 me.
23 Primarily my interest was in networking with 24 other people within my field. 25 Q Can you tell us what you were told regarding the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4723 Price-direct/Scott
1 selection of members in general?
2 A That the member
s were chosen by people who already
3 belonged to Who's Who, and that those names were submitted
4 to a selection committee, and they were voted on.
5 If you got the vote you were in. And if you
6 didn't, you weren't.
7 Q Did you ask any questions during this conversation?
8 A I asked a great deal of questions.
9 Q Can you tell us specifically some of the questions
10 you asked?
11 A One of the questions regarded mailing lists. I
12 wanted to make sure that this really was genuine, that I
13 had been nominated, and this was an honor and not just a
14 name picked at random.
15 Q You asked if there was -- if your name was picked
16 from a mailing list?
17 A Yes, I did.
18 Q What was your response to that question?
19 A Absolutely not. They didn't use mailing lists in
20 their work.
21 Q Do you remember any other questions you asked during
22 the conversation?
23 A I remember asking how soon I would get my book, 24 because the book was included in the purchase. 25 I wanted to know how I would receive the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4724 Price-direct/Scott
1 information regarding the seminars, and the different
2 meetings that they had regarding real estate in my area,
3 and things along that line.
4 Q Now, what were you told you would get for your money,
5 if you purchased a membership?
6 A Lifetime membership. One of their selling factors
7 was an invitation to their Inaugural ball in New York
8 City. Apparently it was a formal occasion where a lot of
9 the members of Who's Who Worldwide attend, and other
10 things like that. Your name would be admitted to the
11 book.
12 There were a lot of other things that they
13 mentioned that wer
en't of interest to me, so I don't
14 really recall. I remember one was a credit card. Another
15 had to do with travel, but like I said, they weren't of
16 much interest to me.
17 Q Do you remember asking any other questions during the
18 course of your conversation?
19 A I remember asking other questions. But right now I
20 can't remember what they were.
21 Q Ms. Price, I am showing
22 Government's Exhibit 3500-MP-1, and I would just ask you
23 if that refreshes your recollection about any other 24 questions you might have asked. 25 (Handed to the witness.)
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4725 Price-direct/Scott
1 Q Does that refresh your recollection?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Can you tell us what other questions you may have
4 asked the salesperson?
5 A I wanted to know specifically who nominated me. They
6 told me it was a female real estate broker in my area.
7 Being that there are only two in the whole Valley, I
8 wanted to know which one nominated me, and they told me it
9 was private. They couldn't divulge that information; they
10 said it was a secret ballot type thing.
11 Q Can you tell us what the most important thing to you
12 was that led to your purchase?
13 A The most important thing to me -- well, there are
14 really two, and they had equal bearing. One was ego
15 gratification, because I really wanted to see my name in
16 that book. But the other was financial.
17 At that point in time in California we were
18 experiencing a severe financial recession. People were
19 being laid off by the thousands, and people were losing
20 their homes. And I needed to do something to build up my
21 business. And I thought if I could make the business
22 connections
they told me I would be able to do that, that
23 I would be able to connect with some developers and maybe 24 get some track sales. And that was my primary purpose for 25 doing it, financial.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4726 Price-direct/Scott
1 Q You were hoping to be able to use the membership for
2 networking?
3 A Yes, I was.
4 Q Now, if members had been chosen not by nomination
5 from other members, but from a mailing list, would you
6 have been interested in purchasing the membership?
7 A No, I would not.
8 MR. DUNN: Objection as to form.
9 THE COURT: Overruled.
10 Q You can answer, thank you.
11 A No, I would not.
12 Q And can you tell us why that is?
13 A To be nominated and to be chosen by a select group of
14 people carries with it a great deal of prestige. You
15 don't get that
prestige from a mailing list.
16 Q Can you tell us how much money you paid for your
17 membership?
18 A $750.
19 Q How did you pay for it?
20 A With a corporate check.
21 Q Now, did you receive a plaque?
22 A Yes, I did.
23 Q I am showing you Government's Exhibit 32-B. 24 THE COURT: 32-B? 25 MS. SCOTT: 32-B, as in Bagel.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4727 Price-direct/Scott
1 (Handed to the witness.)
2 Q Do you recognize that?
3 A Yes, I do.
4 Q And what is that?
5 A A plaque I received from Who's Who Worldwide in the
6 mail.
7 MS. SCOTT: I offer 32-B, as in Bagel.
8 THE COURT: Any objection?
9 MR. TRABULUS: No objection.
10 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 32-B, for Baker,
11 in evidence.
12 (Government's Exhibit 32-B received in evidence.)
13 Q
Can you take a look at the fronts of the plaque and
14 tell us what it says.
15 A It says awarded to Marilyn L. Price, honored member
16 of Who's Who Worldwide. The member named above is
17 included in the 1992 platinum edition of the Who's Who
18 Registry. Memberships are limited to those individuals
19 who have demonstrated leadership and achievement in their
20 occupation, industry or profession.
21 MS. SCOTT: Your Honor, may I publish
22 Government's Exhibit 32-B?
23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 (Whereupon, the exhibit/exhibits were published 25 to the jury.)
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4728 Price-direct/Scott
1 Q Ms. Price, did you receive a directory from the
2 company?
3 A No, I did not.
4 Q Did you receive any additional communications from
5 the company?
6 A Yes, I did.
7 Q Can y
ou tell us what else you received?
8 A Well --
9 Q I will be more specific. Can you tell us what you
10 received regarding the directory?
11 A Nothing.
12 Q Did you receive any additional billing?
13 A I was contacted approximately a year later asking me
14 for another $250.
15 Q And was that by telephone?
16 A I don't recall.
17 Q Can you tell us what the reasons were that were given
18 for this additional payment they were asking for?
19 A I don't recall that either.
20 I didn't send them an additional $250. I did
21 contact them for my book.
22 Q When you contacted them for the book, what happened?
23 A The first time they told me I had to wait for a 24 reprint of the book. The second time I contacted them 25 they said they would send me one for an additional, I
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4729
Price-direct/Scott
1 think it was $100. And that was supposed to be included
2 in my membership. And I so stated when I spoke to the
3 gentleman.
4 Q Where did you get the idea that it was supposed to be
5 included in your $750 membership fee?
6 A I was told that.
7 Q By the salesperson who called you?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Now, other than those contacts, did you have any
10 further contacts with the company?
11 A I don't believe so, no.
12 MS. SCOTT: Thank you, Ms. Price.
13 I have no further questions.
14 THE COURT: Cross-examination.
15
16 CROSS-EXAMINATION
17 BY MR. TRABULUS:
18 Q Good afternoon, Ms. Price. My name is Norman
19 Trabulus. And that's my client there, named Bruce Gordon.
20 Ms. Price, how did you pay for this?
21 A Corporate check.
22 Q Do you have a copy of the check?
23 A No.
24 Q Did you get any invoice in the mail? 25 A Yes, I did.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4730 Price-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Do you have a copy of that?
2 A No.
3 Q When you were asked to pay an additional amount, did
4 you receive an invoice in the mail for that?
5 A It wasn't an invoice. It was a letter.
6 Q Do you have a copy of that with you?
7 A I threw it away.
8 Q Do you have copies of any of the paperwork that you
9 either received or sent, if you sent anything in
10 connection with this?
11 A Not with me. They are in storage.
12 Q When you say they are in storage, do you have them in
13 storage?
14 A Yes, I do.
15 Q Did the government ask you if you have them in
16 storage?
17 A Yes, they did.
18 Q Did they ask you to get them?
19 A Yes, they did.
20 Q Did you
get them?
21 A No.
22 Q Did they explain to you that this is a criminal case?
23 A Yes, they did. 24 Q Did they explain to you that people conceivably could 25 be sentenced to jail as a result of what happened here?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4731 Price-cross/Trabulus
1 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
2 THE COURT: Sustained.
3 Q Did they explain to you that this was an important
4 matter?
5 A Yes, they did.
6 Q Did it appear to you to be an important matter?
7 A Important to me?
8 Q No, not to you, but just an important matter that you
9 would be coming here to testify; that you would be coming
10 to testify in something that was of importance to other
11 people.
12 A Could you go over that slowly?
13 Q Yes.
14 The government flew you here from California; is
15 that correct?
16 A I assume it was the government who did.
17 Q And did you understand that the matter that you were
18 coming here to testify about, or testify in, was a matter
19 of importance?
20 A Yes, I did.
21 Q And that it was important that the testimony you gave
22 be as accurate as possible?
23 A Yes. 24 Q Did it occur to you that by checking the 25 documentation you might have corrected any errors that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4732 Price-cross/Trabulus
1 might have been in your recollection?
2 A I don't understand the question. One more time.
3 Q Did it occur to you that perhaps your memory would be
4 more accurate and your testimony would be more accurate if
5 you got your documentation out of storage and looked at
6 it?
7 A A copy of the check?
8 Q You testified that it was $750; is that c
orrect?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Is it possible that it was a lesser amount?
11 A No.
12 Q Date occur to you by looking at the check you would
13 be in a better position to say with certainty whatever
14 amount it was?
15 A No.
16 Q Is your memory of this extremely clear?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Has it always been extremely clear?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Have you ever been solicited -- withdrawn.
21 In total, how many different Who's Who
22 organizations have contacted you as far as you know during
23 the course of time? 24 A Only one. 25 Q And that's the one you have the plaque on; is that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4733 Price-cross/Trabulus
1 correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And when you got that plaque, what did you do with
4 it, madam?
5 A I put it in a drawer.
6 Q And you were
-- that's the only plaque you received
7 from Who's Who?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And I think you indicated that your memory of
10 everything here has been quite clear and accurate
11 throughout?
12 A Relatively, yes.
13 Q And you filled out a questionnaire that was sent to
14 you by the United States Postal Service sometime in 1995;
15 is that correct?
16 A Yes, I did.
17 Q And you were asked if you received anything from the
18 company through the U.S. mails; do you recall that?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And if so, please specify what it was and the
21 approximate date you received it.
22 A Yes.
23 Q And you typed in on the questionnaire, a walnut 24 plaque with a silver face. I don't remember when I 25 received it; do you recall that?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4734 Price-cross/Trabulus
1
A Yes.
2 Q This is the plaque you described as a walnut front?
3 A What number is that? I just want to see what I
4 typed.
5 Q I am going to direct you to 3500-MP-1 for
6 Identification. And your response to question 34.
7 A That's definitely what I typed.
8 Q Now, do you know whether you -- withdrawn.
9 You haven't seen any of the invoices that you
10 were sent by Who's Who Worldwide since you put them into
11 storage; is that correct?
12 A No, I have not.
13 Q So, you would not be in a position to say whether or
14 not the invoice that you received after making the order
15 said on it anything about having to make another payment
16 later on, would you?
17 A No.
18 Q And is that correct that in response to one of the
19 questions that was put to you in the questionnaire, which
20 was as follows: What were you told about the company, its
21 directories and your potential inclusion in them? And you
22 responded, and this is question 3 there, you can take a
23 look at it, on the first page. It was in 1992. And I 24 don't have much recall regarding exactly what they said, 25 although I do recall them giving me a cursory overreview
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4735 Price-cross/Trabulus
1 of the organization and the impressive people I would be
2 associated with through my inclusion in the publication.
3 Did you put that down there?
4 A Yes, I did.
5 Q So, it is fair to say that there was at least some
6 cloud in your recollection about what you had been told?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Now, did you ever receive anything else in the mail
9 besides the plaque and the invoices?
10 A No, sir.
11 Q Did you ever receive any magazines?
12 A No, sir.
13 Q Do you know whether your name ever appeared in a
14 directory or not?
15 A I have no personal knowledge of that.
16 Q Did you ever ask for a refund?
17 A Yes, I did.
18 Q Now, the refund -- the check that -- you say you paid
19 with a corporate check?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Was that from your corporation?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Do you know if a refund check was sent to your 24 corporation? 25 A No.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4736 Price-cross/Trabulus
1 Q You don't know?
2 A No refund check was ever received.
3 Q When you asked for a refund, was it by telephone or
4 by letter?
5 A Telephone.
6 Q Were you told you would get a refund?
7 A No.
8 Q Were you told you wouldn't get a refund?
9 A I was told I would not get a refund.
10 Q Were you told you had already rec
eived the plaque?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Were you told that you were already in the directory?
13 A That's what I was told.
14 Q Ms. Price, I am going to show you
15 Defendant's Exhibit K, page 726, and I will point to this
16 (indicating).
17 Do you see your name there?
18 A Yes, I do.
19 Q Do you see an entry that says that you are the
20 president of Escrow Chalet, Inc.?
21 A Yes, I do.
22 Q Is that the company for which you are president?
23 A That's the company I am the president of. Why didn't 24 they send me the book? 25 Q Now, did you ask them that when you asked for a
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4737 Price-cross/Trabulus
1 refund?
2 A Yes, I did. That's why I asked for the refund.
3 Q Now, do you recall being asked in the questionnaire,
4 this question, and giving this question,
question number
5 30, did you ever make any complaint to the company or
6 request a refund for any reason? If so, please explain,
7 and with whom did you speak and what were you told?
8 A I see that.
9 Q Answer, I never asked for a refund. I just asked for
10 the product I paid for. After a while I just forgot about
11 it because I am very busy.
12 Did you give that answer?
13 A Yes, I did.
14 Q So, was it is that correct that you didn't ask for a
15 refund, you asked for the products, the directory?
16 A I went over this with my corporate assistant --
17 Q Would you please answer --
18 MR. TRABULUS: Motion to strike.
19 THE COURT: Motion granted, it is stricken from
20 record the jury is instructed to disregard it.
21 Q Is it correct you didn't ask for a refund, you just
22 asked for the product?
23 A No, it is not correct. I made a mistak
e. 24 MR. TRABULUS: I have no further questions. 25 THE COURT: Anybody else?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4738 Price-cross/Schoer
1 MR. SCHOER: I have a question from here.
2
3 CROSS-EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. SCHOER:
5 Q The person you spoke to on the phone, did you know
6 his name to be Bob?
7 A I don't recall his name.
8 Q Do you remember on August 1st, 1995, speaking to
9 Inspector Pagano over the telephone?
10 A I have spoken to him before. I don't know what date.
11 Q Do you remember telling him on that date that the
12 salesperson from Who's Who Worldwide, his name was Bob?
13 A This has been going on for a long time. I don't
14 recall.
15 MR. SCHOER: May I approach the witness, your
16 Honor?
17 THE COURT: At any time.
18 Q I will show you what is marked as 3500-MP-2.
19 (Handed to the witness.)
20 Q I will ask you to read to yourself the first line, or
21 the first sentence in the second paragraph.
22 A Okay.
23 Q Does that refresh your recollection that at least on 24 August 1st, 1995 -- I didn't mean to grab it from you. 25 A That's all right.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4739 Price-cross/Schoer
1 Q On August 1st, 1995, you told Inspector Pagano that
2 the salesperson you spoke to, his first name was Bob?
3 A I assume I said it since it is written there, but I
4 don't recall.
5 MR. SCHOER: I have no further questions, your
6 Honor.
7 MR. JENKS: May I ask one or two, your Honor?
8 THE COURT: Surely.
9 MR. SCHOER: I was going to ask your Honor to
10 give a limiting instruction with respect to this witness'
11 testimony based on the fact that the person
she spoke to
12 was named Bob.
13 THE COURT: What is your limiting instruction?
14 MR. SCHOER: That this evidence only goes to the
15 corporation.
16 THE COURT: Is that so, Ms. Scott?
17 MS. SCOTT: That's right, your Honor.
18 THE COURT: Yes.
19 The evidence produced by this witness is only
20 directed to the corporation, Who's Who Worldwide
21 Enterprise, Inc.
22 MR. JENKS: Can I ask from here?
23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4740 Price-cross/Jenks
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. JENKS:
3 Q You said, Ms. Price, you paid $750 for the
4 membership?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And you have a cancelled check someplace, but it is
7 in storage?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Did the government tell you -- withdrawn.
10 You took a membership back in 1992?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Did the government tell you that in 1992 with Who's
13 Who Worldwide there was no such thing as a $750
14 membership?
15 A No one ever told me that.
16 Q Is your memory mistaken perhaps as to what you
17 actually paid?
18 A I have taken so much harassment from my office on
19 this, that, no. It sticks in my mind.
20 Q You are sure it is $750?
21 A Oh, yes.
22 Q If I told you the company didn't have a membership
23 for $750, would that change what stuck in your mind? 24 A No. 25 MR. JENKS: Thank you.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4741 Price-cross/Dunn
1
2 CROSS-EXAMINATION
3 BY MR. DUNN:
4 Q Good afternoon, Ms. Price.
5 A Good afternoon.
6 Q My name is Thomas Dunn.
7 Ms. Price, you said a little while ago that one
8 of the reasons t
hat you accepted a membership was for
9 prestige; is that correct?
10 A That is correct.
11 Q And you wanted to network; is that correct?
12 A That is correct.
13 Q And you felt that there would be a financial benefit;
14 is that correct?
15 A That is correct.
16 Q Isn't it a fact, Ms. Price, that if you were told
17 that this was a mailing list, and your name was gained
18 from a mailing list, and you were going to get all these
19 three things, you would have joined; isn't that correct?
20 A No, not correct.
21 Q You want this jury to believe that if you knew it was
22 a mailing list you wouldn't have joined; is that your
23 testimony? 24 A I don't care what they believe. 25 Q You don't care what this jury believes; is that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4742 Price-cross/Dunn
1 correct?
2 A No.
3 Q You don't care if justice is done in this case?
4 A Not correct.
5 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
6 THE COURT: Sustained.
7 Q Ma'am, you said you wouldn't have joined if you knew
8 this was a mailing list; is that correct?
9 A That is correct.
10 Q But your goal was to gain prestige, to network, and
11 possibly to get financial gain because of the economic
12 situation in California and that you were in at the time
13 that you were contacted; is that correct?
14 A That's correct.
15 Q And you received something in the mail, which you
16 filled out and returned to Who's Who Worldwide; is that
17 correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And you did that because you wanted to gain prestige,
20 financial benefits and networking; isn't that correct?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q You are telling us today if you knew it was a mailing
23 list
, there is no way you would have joined this; is that 24 correct? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4743 Price-redirect/Scott
1 Q Even though you could have gained all these things?
2 A That's correct.
3 MR. DUNN: No further questions.
4 THE COURT: Anything else?
5 MS. SCOTT: Brief redirect, your Honor.
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7
8 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
9 BY MS. SCOTT:
10 Q Ms. Price, do you remember being asked by
11 Mr. Trabulus about your memory of these events in 1992?
12 A Who is Mr. Trabulus?
13 Q This is Mr. Trabulus right here.
14 Do you remember being asked on cross-examination
15 about your memory of these events?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And do you remember being asked if there was a cloud
18 over your memory?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And I would just ask you to tak
e a look at -- do you
21 remember being shown the questionnaire, which is marked as
22 3500-MP-1, which I showed you a little earlier.
23 A Yes. 24 Q I would ask you to take a look at that questionnaire, 25 at question number 9, which reads: Were you told that you
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4744 Price-redirect/Scott
1 had been nominated for inclusion --
2 MR. LEE: Objection, your Honor.
3 MS. SCOTT: Your Honor, the implication that was
4 that her memory of these events is not clear.
5 THE COURT: Can I see the material you are asking
6 about?
7 MS. SCOTT: Sure.
8 (Handed to the Court.)
9 MS. SCOTT: It is number 9.
10 THE COURT: Objection overruled.
11 (Handed to the witness.)
12 Q The question reads: Were you told that you had been
13 nominated for inclusion; if so, were you told who had
14 nominated you?
15 Can you read for us what you answered to those
16 questions.
17 A I was told that a local broker nominated me and they
18 were not permitted to inform me of who nominated me.
19 Q And looking at question number 9-C, it says, were you
20 told that a certain percentage of new applicants were not
21 accepted for inclusion? If so, what percentage were you
22 told? Can you tell us the answer you gave on your
23 questionnaire? 24 A About ten percent. 25 MR. JENKS: Judge, I would object and ask the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4745 Price-redirect/Scott
1 answer be stricken.
2 THE COURT: There is no answer yet.
3 Did you have an answer?
4 THE COURT REPORTER: Yes, your Honor.
5 MR. JENKS: I object.
6 THE COURT: Sustained. Strike out the answer.
7 The jury is instructed
to disregard it.
8 Q Now, do you remember being asked a question by
9 Mister -- well, do you remember being asked a question on
10 cross-examination about your answer to question 30 on that
11 questionnaire?
12 A Yes.
13 Q In particular you are asked about why you had
14 responded that you never asked for a refund in that
15 answer?
16 A Uh-huh.
17 MR. TRABULUS: Objection. That was not the
18 question.
19 THE COURT: Overruled.
20 Q And do you remember that you were not permitted to
21 explain why you had given that answer on your
22 questionnaire?
23 MR. TRABULUS: Objection. 24 THE COURT: Mr. Trabulus, we don't interrupt -- 25 it is not so inflammatory that you have to interrupt in
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4746 Price-redirect/Scott
1 the middle of the question, is it?
2 MR. TRABULUS: My apologies.
3 MS. SCOTT: I will withdraw the question, your
4 Honor.
5 THE COURT: I thought it was a rather mild
6 question myself, but go ahead.
7 Q Can you tell us why you gave that answer to question
8 30 on the questionnaire?
9 A There are some things regarding this that I had
10 forgotten about. I work closely with my executive
11 assistant. And after I was going over this before I came,
12 my assistant corrected me on a couple of things. She said
13 that I did call for a refund, because she placed the call.
14 MS. SCOTT: Thank you. I have no further
15 questions.
16
17 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
18 BY MR. TRABULUS:
19 Q So, on that last point, you are testifying based upon
20 your assistant's memory rather than yours; is that
21 correct?
22 A That's correct.
23 Q And let me ask you this, did you, with reg
ard to the 24 $750 amount, did your corporation take a tax deduction 25 based on that?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4747 Price-recross/Trabulus
1 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
2 THE COURT: Sustained.
3 Well, I am going to reverse myself and overrule
4 that objection.
5 THE WITNESS: Does that mean I do or don't
6 answer?
7 THE COURT: You have to answer.
8 THE WITNESS: No, we did not.
9 Q There was no tax deduction claimed?
10 A No.
11 Q No business related -- it wasn't treated as a
12 business related expense?
13 A No.
14 Q When the government asked you to get the documents
15 out of storage, and you didn't, you weren't concerned that
16 maybe the check would show an amount different from $750?
17 A That was not my concern.
18 Q The entry for you that is in this book,
19
Defendant's Exhibit Q, that's under the section entitled
20 five-year member; is that correct?
21 A That's what it says.
22 Q And it is your testimony that you joined in 1992?
23 A Yes. 24 Q Now, the next year's book, Exhibit P, and I am 25 directing you to page 60.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4748 Price-recross/Trabulus
1 You see lots of listings for people named Price?
2 A Yes, I do.
3 Q And the heading is five year members?
4 A That's what it says.
5 THE COURT: I can't hear you.
6 THE WITNESS: That's what it says.
7 Q And your name is not there; is that correct? Take a
8 look.
9 A It is not there.
10 Q And would that suggest to you that you had requested
11 a refund that had been -- and had been granted it?
12 A I would not sug -- it does not suggest anything of
13 the sort.
14 Q If your records that were in storage were here do you
15 feel it would shed additional light on the dollar amounts
16 that were claimed and whether or not any refund had been
17 claimed?
18 A Not in my mind.
19 Q And with regard to -- did you consult with an
20 accountant as to whether or not this would be a
21 business-related expense to your corporation, and entitle
22 you to take a deduction?
23 A I am sure that I did go over with my C.P.A. with some 24 of these things. 25 Q You did regard this as potentially advertising, did
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4749 Price-recross/Trabulus
1 you not?
2 A Advertising, no.
3 Q For networking? Your name would be available for
4 other people and they could contact you for business
5 purposes?
6 A It wouldn't be deemed advertising.
7 Q
Did you understand that this expense that you were
8 incurring would be something you would utilize in your
9 business?
10 A Potentially, yes.
11 Q And it would be something that you were doing -- you
12 would be doing basically because of your business; is that
13 right?
14 A That is correct.
15 Q Did it occur to you that you could take a tax
16 deduction for it?
17 A I don't recall whether that occurred to me or not.
18 Q If you did take a tax deduction, did it occur to you
19 if you got an income from it, it would have to be
20 reported?
21 A If I didn't regard the first, why would I regard the
22 second.
23 Q Did you check with your assistant as to whether or 24 not you took a tax deduction for it? 25 A The question just came up. Why would I ask her.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4750 Price-
recross/Jenks
1 MR. TRABULUS: No further questions.
2 THE COURT: Anything else?
3 MR. JENKS: Just a few questions.
4
5 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. JENKS:
7 Q Let me show you, ma'am, what is in evidence as
8 Government's Exhibit 3-C, in relation to a Wilma Pincham,
9 Government's Exhibit 3-C.
10 Can you tell me the date at the top of this?
11 A December 9, 1992.
12 Q December 1992. You became a member sometime in 1992;
13 is that right?
14 A Yes, that's correct.
15 Q And this says order form; am I correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And I just ask you to read for the jury in this order
18 form, under lifetime membership, the total fee on Who's
19 Who Worldwide Registry in 1992 for a lifetime membership,
20 right here, if you could just read them down, what is
21 printed here.
22 A Lifetime, $587. Five year, 387. Three yea
r, 287.
23 One year, 247. 24 Q Okay. 25 That says the -- the date on this order form is
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4751 Price-recross/Jenks
1 December 9th, 1992; is that correct?
2 A That is correct.
3 Q So, it says here Who's Who Worldwide Registry, a
4 lifetime membership, the total fee was $587; is that
5 correct?
6 A That's what it says.
7 Q And it has the word, now 490; December '97, shipping
8 7; is that correct, seven dollars. Do you see that here?
9 A Yes, that's correct.
10 Q A five year membership, it has a total of 387, or
11 $290 now, $97 in December and seven dollars shipping; is
12 that correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Now, you are in that book that Mr. Trabulus had shown
15 you, over here, Marilyn Price, under a five year
16 membership; is that right? Let me show you the b
ook,
17 Defendant's Exhibit Q in evidence.
18 You are in here under a five year membership; am
19 I correct, it says five year member in your -- under this
20 page?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Marilyn Price; is that correct?
23 The addition of this Who's Who Worldwide registry 24 is to 1994; is that correct? 25 A That's correct.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4752 Price-recross/Jenks
1 Q Does it refresh your recollection at all that you did
2 not possibly pay $750 for a membership?
3 A I paid $750.
4 MR. JENKS: Thank you.
5 THE COURT: Anything else?
6 MR. GEDULDIG: I would like to ask one or two.
7
8 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
9 BY MR. GEDULDIG:
10 Q Ms. Price, at some point you said you had your
11 assistant call New York and she placed a call for you to
12 talk to people in the Who'
s Who offices in New York?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And at the time you made or your assistant made the
15 call, did you have the phone number for the company you
16 were calling?
17 A I am sure she did.
18 Q Do you know where she got that number from?
19 A Not right now, no.
20 Q Do you know if she had it handy or had to call
21 information?
22 A I don't know.
23 Q Do you know if she could have called a company other 24 than Who's Who Worldwide? 25 A I don't know.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4753 Price-recross/Geduldig
1 Q Do you know if there was more than one Who's Who
2 operation on Long Island or in the New York City
3 metropolitan area at the time that your assistant placed
4 the call?
5 A I have no knowledge of that.
6 Q If she called Who's Who in America business
7 executi
ves, you don't know whether or not she made a call
8 to that organization or not?
9 A I wouldn't know, no.
10 MR. GEDULDIG: No further questions.
11 THE COURT: Anything else?
12
13 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
14 BY MR. NEVILLE:
15 Q Hi, Ms. Price.
16 A Hello.
17 Q My name is Jim Neville.
18 A Hello.
19 Q Are you sure it wasn't Scott Michaelson that you had
20 spoken to?
21 A I don't know.
22 Q You say it was Bob? Is that what you said in that
23 phone call? 24 A That's apparently what I said at some point in time. 25 I really don't recall.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4754 Price-recross/Neville
1 Q Any last name of Bob?
2 A I don't recall.
3 Q Bob?
4 Ma'am, you testified you have in storage, as you
5 sit here today and testify, the invoice from this
6 transaction?
7 A That is correct.
8 Q And, ma'am, you say that as you sit here and testify
9 at this criminal trial, that you have in storage the check
10 that you issued to pay for this?
11 A That's correct.
12 Q Where are they in storage? Bali?
13 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
14 MR. NEVILLE: I am sorry.
15 Q Where are they in storage?
16 A In Lake Elsinore.
17 THE COURT: Like in the medieval English place?
18 THE WITNESS: That's correct, it comes from
19 Hamlet.
20 THE COURT: E L S I N O R E?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes.
22 THE COURT: It is in Shakespeare, right?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, Hamlet. 24 THE COURT: Hamlet, right. 25 Q Are you sure it wasn't William with whom you spoke on
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4755 Price-recross/Neville
1 the phone?
2 Where is Lake -- I c
onfess --
3 THE COURT: Elsinore.
4 MR. NEVILLE: I never read Hamlet.
5 THE COURT: It is not easy reading, Mr. Neville.
6 MR. NEVILLE: That's why I never read it.
7 Q Is that in California where you live?
8 A Yes, it is.
9 Q Is that -- well, how far is that from where you
10 either live or work?
11 A I work in Elsinore.
12 Q So, the documents are in storage in the same town
13 where you work?
14 A About eight miles away, yes.
15 Q Do you own a car?
16 A Yes, I do.
17 Q Everybody does in California; is that right?
18 A Yes, I do.
19 Q I bet there is a freeway from your office to that
20 storage place?
21 A I bet you would be wrong.
22 Q There is a road though?
23 A Oh, yes. 24 Q And do you have anything else in storage there? 25 A I do, a great deal. That's why I didn't bring the
HARRY RAP
APORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4756 Price-recross/Neville
1 check.
2 Q I see.
3 And you typed out this questionnaire, right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Is it unreasonable for me to say that upon perusing
6 this questionnaire, you seem to be a very precise,
7 concise, exact kind of person?
8 A To an extent, yes.
9 Q I bet you have an index of everything you have in
10 storage, you do, don't you?
11 A No, I don't.
12 Q And that you could go to that storage place, and pick
13 out those documents in exactly a second?
14 A I bet you are wrong.
15 Q Did you try to get those documents?
16 A Yes, I did.
17 Q You just couldn't find them?
18 A No, it is not entirely true.
19 Q You realize that this is a criminal trial and these
20 people are on trial for criminal charges; is that right?
21 A I do now.
22 Q
You didn't know that before?
23 A I assumed they were in trouble. 24 Q Yes, they are. 25 When did you first remember that these documents
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4757 Price-recross/Neville
1 were in storage at the Lake?
2 A Lake Elsinore?
3 Q Yes.
4 A It wasn't a matter of remembering. I know where I
5 keep all my storage material. It is a matter of there are
6 too many boxes on top of them.
7 Q So, you flew to New York to testify?
8 A Yes, I did.
9 Q At a criminal trial?
10 A Yes, I did.
11 Q And it was just not convenient for you to look at
12 those documents, look for those documents?
13 A It is not a matter of convenience.
14 Q These people are on trial. We know Bob is not here?
15 THE COURT: We know that, Mr. Neville. Let's
16 proceed.
17 Q Would you consider it
fair that if those documents
18 could shed some light on the innocence or guilt of any of
19 these people in here that maybe you should have brought it
20 with you?
21 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
22 THE COURT: Sustained as to form.
23 Q Do you feel those documents could have helped this 24 jury make a decision in this very important case? 25 A I didn't think it was relevant.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4758 Price-recross/Neville
1 Q The check you issued isn't relevant?
2 A I thought the fact that I was lied to was relevant.
3 I thought that was the issue.
4 Q Well, yeah. But would it have anything to do with --
5 would it be important for you to know who lied to you?
6 A I know who lied to me.
7 Q Bob lied to you, right?
8 A He represented a company.
9 Q Well, then we should send them all to jail, righ
t?
10 A Okay by me.
11 MS. SCOTT: Objection.
12 MR. NEVILLE: No further questions.
13 THE COURT: Strike out the answer. The jury is
14 instructed to disregard it.
15 You will have to object much more quickly,
16 Ms. Scott.
17 MS. SCOTT: I will do that.
18 THE COURT: Anything else?
19 MS. SCOTT: I have nothing further.
20 THE COURT: You may step down, on your way back
21 to Lake Elsinore.
22 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
23 THE COURT: You may proceed. 24 (Whereupon, at this time the witness left the 25 witness stand.)
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4759
1 MS. SCOTT: The government calls Philip Wescott.
2 THE COURT: Please raise your right hand.
3
4 P H I L I P C. W E S C O T T ,
5 called as a witness, having been first
6 duly sworn, was examined and testified
7 as follows:
8
9 THE COURT: Please be seated.
10 State your full name and spell your name.
11 THE WITNESS: My name is Phil, Philip C.
12 Wescott. Last name W E S C O T T.
13 THE COURT: You may proceed.
14 MS. SCOTT: Thank you, your Honor.
15
16 DIRECT EXAMINATION
17 BY MS. SCOTT:
18 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Wescott.
19 A Good afternoon.
20 Q Can you tell us where you live?
21 A In Chadds Ford, Pennsylvania.
22 THE COURT: What is that?
23 A C H A D D S, Ford, like the automobile, two words. 24 Q How are you employed, Mr. Wescott? 25 A I work for a health care organization.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4760 Wescott-direct/Scott
1 Q Can you tell us the name of that organization?
2 A It is called Christiana Care, two words.
3 Q What is your position with Christi
ana Care?
4 A I am one of the senior vice presidents.
5 Q And can you tell us what your responsibilities are?
6 A Yes, relationships, building sales, government, media
7 relations.
8 Q How long have you held this position?
9 A About 12 years.
10 Q How many people do you supervise in your position, if
11 any?
12 A 39.
13 Q Have you ever been contacted by a company called
14 Who's Who Worldwide?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Did you eventually purchase a membership from that
17 company?
18 A Yes, I did.
19 Q Can you tell us how you were first contacted?
20 A Yes, in October of 1993 I received a letter in the
21 mail that had a return card enclosed, and I returned the
22 card.
23 Q Can you tell us what that letter said? 24 A It said basically that I had been nominated for 25 inclusion in the Who's Who Worldwide Registry, I believe
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4761 Wescott-direct/Scott
1 it was.
2 Q I am showing you Government's Exhibit 36-E, for
3 Identification.
4 (Handed to the witness.)
5 Q Do you recognize that document?
6 A Yes, ma'am. This is the letter that I first
7 received.
8 MS. SCOTT: I offer Government's Exhibit 36-E.
9 THE COURT: Any objection?
10 MR. TRABULUS: We don't have copies?
11 MR. JENKS: Can I have a copy?
12 THE COURT: What is the date on that letter?
13 THE WITNESS: October 19, 1993.
14 THE COURT: Show it to counsel.
15 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
16 proceedings.)
17 THE COURT: Any objection?
18 MR. DUNN: No objection, your Honor.
19 MR. TRABULUS: No.
20 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 36-E, for easy,
21 in evidence.
22 (Government's E
xhibit 36-E received in evidence.)
23 Q Taking a look at 36-E, can you read the first two 24 paragraphs of that letter and slowly? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4762 Wescott-direct/Scott
1 Dear Mr. Wescott.
2 You were recently nominated for inclusion in the
3 Who's Who Registry. On October 12th your nomination was
4 accepted by the office of public affairs and, therefore,
5 we wish to extend our congratulations on this coveted
6 event, since many individuals are not accepted.
7 Q Now, do you see your handwriting on that page?
8 A Yes, I do.
9 Q Can you tell us what you wrote on there.
10 A It was a note to myself that said, returned 10/28/93.
11 Q What did you return on 10/28/93?
12 A A card that was enclosed with the letter.
13 Q Now I am showing you Government's Exhibit 36-D, as in
14 Da
niel.
15 (Handed to the witness.)
16 Q Do you recognize that?
17 A Yes. This is the card that I filled out and mailed
18 back.
19 Q Is that the card you returned on the date you noted
20 on the letter?
21 A Yes.
22 I can't quite read the date on the postcard, but
23 it is 20 something October, 1993. 24 MS. SCOTT: I offer Government's Exhibit 26-D, as 25 in Daniel, 36-D.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4763 Wescott-direct/Scott
1 THE COURT: Any objection?
2 MR. TRABULUS: No.
3 MR. JENKS: No.
4 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 36-D, for Dog,
5 in evidence.
6 (Government's Exhibit 36-D received in evidence.)
7 Q After you returned this card, Ms. Wescott, what
8 happened?
9 A Well, a few days later a woman by the name of Marilyn
10 Pierce phoned my office.
11 TH
E COURT: What was the name of the woman?
12 THE WITNESS: Marilyn Pierce.
13 Q Did you have a conversation with her?
14 A No, I did not. I think I was at a meeting when I
15 called, and my secretary had a conversation with her.
16 Q Did you eventually have a conversation with the
17 salesperson from Who's Who Worldwide?
18 A Yes, I did.
19 Q Was that over the telephone?
20 A Yes, it was.
21 Q Can you tell us what happened in that conversation?
22 A Yes, I indicated I was returning a call from Marilyn
23 Pierce, and the man whom I spoke with said he could help 24 me, and repeated basically the information that was -- 25 some of the information that was in the October 19th
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4764 Wescott-direct/Scott
1 letter that I had been nominated for inclusion, and that
2 this was a professional
tribute of sorts; and that I could
3 take advantage of this offer. And wanted to know what my
4 interest level was in accepting this nomination; and asked
5 me if I was familiar with the Who's Who organization, and
6 I indicated that I was, and that I had seen Who's Who
7 directories in the public library, reference sections, or
8 in offices of executives elsewhere.
9 Q What, if anything, did this person tell you about how
10 members in general were selected?
11 A He told me that it was a nomination process by your
12 professional peers.
13 Q Now, of the things that were said to you about this
14 company, what was the most important thing that led to
15 your purchase?
16 A Well, that perhaps there were colleagues of mine
17 around the country who felt that they knew me well enough
18 or that my professional accomplishments had been
19 noteworthy enough that
they would nominate me for
20 inclusion.
21 Q And how did you expect to use this membership, if at
22 all?
23 A Well, potentially for professional networking 24 purposes, for example, job seeking in the future, 25 particularly.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4765 Wescott-direct/Scott
1 Q What relationship, if any, did your belief that you
2 and the other members had been nominated have with your
3 perception that you could use this for networking?
4 A I am not sure I understand the question.
5 Q How did your belief that you had been nominated
6 relate to your idea that this would be useful to you for
7 networking?
8 THE WITNESS: Well, in my particular industry and
9 professional area, it is a rather common networking
10 technique, for professional societies and such, so that
11 the word of mouth endo
rsement of others is considered
12 important.
13 Q Now, if your name had been obtained not by
14 nomination, but from a mailing list, would you still have
15 purchased this membership?
16 MR. DUNN: Objection as to leading, your Honor.
17 THE COURT: Overruled.
18 A I don't think so.
19 Q And why is that?
20 A Because in my experience there is a lot of
21 solicitations for a variety of things you receive in the
22 mail that that don't have that kind of personal
23 recommendation attached, so it would just be seen maybe as 24 another solicitation to subscribe to something, or accept 25 a credit card offer, or something like that.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4766 Wescott-direct/Scott
1 Q Now, do you remember how much you paid for your
2 membership?
3 A Almost $300.
4 Q How did you pay for it?
5 A With a credit card.
6 I authorized the person I spoke with on the phone
7 to charge my credit card account.
8 Q I am showing you Government's Exhibit 36-B, as in
9 Baker, for Identification.
10 Do you recognize that?
11 A This appears to be -- it says a file copy of an
12 invoice for membership in the -- it says Who's Who.
13 Q Does that commemorate your purchase of a membership
14 from Who's Who?
15 A Yes.
16 MS. SCOTT: I offer Government's Exhibit 36-B.
17 THE COURT: Any objection?
18 MR. TRABULUS: No.
19 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 36-B, for Baker,
20 in evidence.
21 (Government's Exhibit 36-B received in evidence.)
22 MS. SCOTT: May I publish these exhibits, your
23 Honor, 36-B. 24 THE COURT: You will -- have you completed your 25 direct examination?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT
REPORTER 4767 Wescott-direct/Scott
1 MS. SCOTT: No, but if you are wishing to take a
2 break, this is a good time to take a break, your Honor.
3 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we will take a
4 ten-minute recess. Please do not discuss the case and
5 keep an open mind.
6 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the
7 courtroom.)
8
9 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.)
10
11 THE CLERK: Jury entering.
12 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the
13 courtroom.)
14 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the
15 jury.
16 You may proceed.
17 MS. SCOTT: Thank you, your Honor.
18
19 DIRECT EXAMINATION (cont'd)
20 BY MS. SCOTT:
21 Q Now, Mr. Wescott, taking a look at 36-B, can you tell
22 us the date appearing on that invoice?
23 A The invoice date is 11/10/93. 24 Q And can you tell us
the price of the membership that 25 you bought as indicated on the invoice?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4768 Wescott-direct/Scott
1 A Total is $290, plus seven dollars shipping charges.
2 Q Now, looking at Government's Exhibit 37-D, as in
3 Daniel, if you take a look at the very lower right-hand
12 permission to publish Government's Exhibit 36-B, C and E.
13 THE COURT: Very well.
14 (Whereupon, the exhibit/exhibits were published
15 to the jury.)
16 Q Mr. Wescott, did you receive a plaque?
17 A I believe I did, yes.
18 Q What did you do with yo
ur plaque?
19 A I opened the container and set it in the closet.
20 Q Did you receive a directory?
21 A No, ma'am.
22 Q Did you ever receive any calls from people who said
23 that they were members of Who's Who Worldwide, wishing to 24 network with you? 25 A No.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4769 Wescott-direct/Scott
1 Q Did you ever have any other contacts with the company
2 after receiving the directory?
3 A No. I think I got another --
4 Q You said after receiving the directory?
5 MS. SCOTT: I am sorry, after receiving the
6 plaque.
7 A No. I think I may have gotten another letter maybe a
8 year or so later. But my recollection of that is not
9 clear.
10 Q Do you have any recollection of what that letter
11 says?
12 MR. DUNN: Objection, your Honor, he doesn't
13 recall
it.
14 THE COURT: Sustained.
15 MS. SCOTT: No further questions.
16 THE COURT: All right, cross-examination.
17
18 CROSS-EXAMINATION
19 BY MR. TRABULUS:
20 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Wescott. My name is Norman
21 Trabulus, and I am the lawyer for Mr. Gordon, who is the
22 gentleman seated next to me.
23 A Good afternoon. 24 Q Mr. Wescott, do you recall that in 1995, you received 25 a questionnaire from the Postal Service?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4770 Wescott-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes, I do.
2 Q And you filled it out and sent it back to them?
3 A Correct.
4 Q And when you testified here before, in response to
5 the questions that Ms. Scott put to you, you indicated
6 that the first you heard from Who's Who Worldwide was by
7 mail; is that correct?
8 A Yes, that's correct.
9 Q Now, when you filled out the questionnaire for the
10 Postal Service, did you not put down that your initial
11 contact was by telephone?
12 A Yes, I think I did.
13 Q And in response to the first question, and I will not
14 read the whole question, but were you contacted by Who's
15 Who Worldwide, and then it listed some other companies,
16 too, and you wrote down, yes, phoned by Who's Who
17 Worldwide.
18 And then when you were asked how were you
19 contacted, i.e., a solicitation letter, a telephone call,
20 or both, you put down, a telephone call initially, USPS,
21 mail, follow up.
22 A Okay.
23 Q Was that your accurate -- withdrawn. 24 Was that the way you recalled it at the time you 25 filled out the questionnaire?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4771 Wescott-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes, I
suppose it was.
2 Q Now, since then, has anybody from the government,
3 whether it be Ms. Scott or Mr. White, or Mr. Pagano,
4 spoken to you about that and suggested to you that you got
5 the letter first?
6 A No. I had spoken to them. But, no.
7 Q Did anyone tell you that you had got the telephone
8 call first, rather than the letter or the card, that that
9 would be an indication based on the way the company
10 operated, that indeed, another member had nominated you
11 for inclusion?
12 A No. I think my -- I just had a faulty recollection
13 when I filled out the questionnaire.
14 Q You filled out the questionnaire in 1995; is that
15 right?
16 A I believe that's right.
17 Q And that's about a year and a half or maybe a little
18 more than that, after you had become a member; is that
19 correct?
20 A Yes. But I don't recall the exact day
that I filled
21 out the questionnaire.
22 Q And two and a half years had passed since you filled
23 out the questionnaire, approximately? 24 A Sounds about right. 25 Q In that time your recollection has changed from what
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4772 Wescott-cross/Trabulus
1 it was when you filled out the questionnaire?
2 A Yes. I realized I was in error in my questionnaire.
3 Q And at this point you believe that your first contact
4 was by mail; is that correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And back in July of 1995, the way you recalled it at
7 that point in time, if I had suggested to you at that
8 point that you first had been contacted by mail, you would
9 have said that that was mistaken; is that correct?
10 A I suppose.
11 Q And now, when you were first contacted, is it correct
12 that they told you tha
t they wanted you to pay a total of
13 about $400 in two annual installments?
14 A I don't think the letter really spelled out what the
15 dollars were.
16 Q My mistake. I really should have been referring to
17 the telephone call you had.
18 When you had a telephone call with one of the
19 salespeople who spoke to you, was it explained to you that
20 the total price was going to be about $400 in two annual
21 installments?
22 A I recall an installment mentioned, but I don't recall
23 specifically what the dollars were that were mentioned at 24 the conversation. 25 Q Was it explained to you that there would be a second
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4773 Wescott-cross/Trabulus
1 payment to be made about a year after the first payment?
2 A I think maybe there was a discussion.
3 Q And that the total amount bet
ween the two payments
4 would be approximately $400?
5 A I am not recalling that.
6 Q Okay.
7 I am going to show you something to refresh your
8 recollection.
9 I will show you, Mr. Wescott, the document which
10 has been marked for Identification, and given the name
11 3500-PW-1. And Mr. Wescott, I am going to show you on
12 page 5 this portion here which is question 27, and
13 something handwritten there.
14 Mr. Wescott, is that a portion of the
15 questionnaire that you filled out?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And I am just directing you to this?
18 A This one --
19 THE COURT: Just read it to yourself.
20 Q Read it to yourself.
21 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you, your Honor.
22 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
23 proceedings.) 24 Q Mr. Wescott, does it refresh your recollection that 25 you were initially told you wou
ld pay about $400 in two
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4774 Wescott-cross/Trabulus
1 annual installments?
2 A Yes.
3 Q You authorized the payment by credit card for the
4 first installment; is that correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Do you recall an occasion where you were asked to
7 authorize a charge for a second payment? Do you recall?
8 A No, I don't recall.
9 Q Do you recall one way or another?
10 A I don't think I was asked.
11 Q Did you ever receive anything from Who's Who
12 Worldwide by way of a follow up after you first paid?
13 A No. I think there was a letter a year or so later.
14 Q Do you recall if that letter asked you to authorize a
15 payment of an additional sum?
16 A I don't recall. I don't think so.
17 Q Do you have a copy of it?
18 A No.
19 Q At that point in time if it req
uested you to
20 authorize a payment of an additional sum, would you have
21 done so?
22 A No.
23 Q By then you decided you didn't want to pay anything 24 more; is that correct? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4775 Wescott-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Now, when you were originally told that there were to
2 be two payments a year apart, it was explained to you, was
3 it not, that the second payment would be made shortly
4 before you were to receive the directory; is that correct?
5 A I don't recall.
6 Q Now, I am going to ask you if you know some names.
7 Right now you work for Christiana Corporation?
8 A Christiana Care Corporation.
9 Q Back when you joined Who's Who Worldwide you worked
10 for the Medical Center of Delaware?
11 A Yes, that's the predecessor name.
12 Q The same outfit?
13 A Yes.
14 Q With a different name?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Did you know a Frank Geiger, director of materials at
17 the Medical Center in Newark?
18 THE COURT: You have to spell all these names,
19 each one of them.
20 MR. TRABULUS: G E I G E R. Frank Geiger.
21 A It sounds vaguely familiar.
22 Q Do you know -- withdrawn.
23 If he were a member of Who's Who Worldwide, which 24 I would represent he was, could he have been somebody who 25 might have nominated you?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4776 Wescott-cross/Trabulus
1 A I don't know. I didn't have a close working
2 relationship.
3 Q Do you know Orn Adalsteinsson, I will most certainly
4 spell it, first name O R N, just O R N. The second name A
5 D A L S T E I N S S O N, president of Dupont/Conagera,
6 D U P O N T, slash C O N A G E R A.
7 Do you know him, sir?
8 A No, I am sorry, I do not.
9 THE COURT: You wouldn't have forgotten him,
10 would you?
11 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor.
12 Q Do you know Sharon M. Clark, S H A R O N, Clark, is
13 C L A R K, president of TLC Home Services, Inc.?
14 A No.
15 Q Do you know Peggy M. Garrett, G A R R E T T, the
16 directory of emergency services at Bee Bee, B E E B E E,
17 Medical Center, Bee Bee Medical Center in Lewes,
18 L E W E S, Lewes, Delaware?
19 A No, I don't know her.
20 Q Do you know Charlene Harter, H A R T E R, the
21 director of patient services at Riverside Hospital in
22 Wilmington, Delaware?
23 A No, I am sorry. 24 Q Do you know Paul C. King, K I N G, Jr., the president 25 and CEO of St. Francis Hospital in Wilmington, Delaware?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4777 Wesc
ott-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes. I know Paul King.
2 Q Could he have been someone who nominated you?
3 A I suppose it is conceivable.
4 Q Do you know Wilfred E. Kingsley, K I N G S L E Y,
5 senior consultant of Wilfred, W.E. Kingsley Associates
6 Health Care Associates in Hockessin, H O C K E S S I N,
7 Delaware?
8 A Yes.
9 Q You do know him personally?
10 A Yes.
11 Q He could be someone who nominated you?
12 A Possibly, not likely.
13 Q Do you know Gary Magram, M A G R A M, a doctor, chief
14 of the division of neurosurgery at the Alfred I. Dupont
15 Institute in Wilmington?
16 A No, I am sorry.
17 Q Do you know a Tony Wilson, at the Department of
18 Veterans Affairs, chief of acquisitions, something like
19 that?
20 A No.
21 Q Wilmington?
22 A No, I do not.
23 Q Do you know David M. Autman, A U T M A N,
the 24 administrator of the Dupont Country Club? 25 A No, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4778 Wescott-cross/Trabulus
1 MR. TRABULUS: No further questions, thank you.
2 THE COURT: Anything else?
3 MR. SCHOER: Yes, your Honor.
4
5 CROSS-EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. SCHOER:
7 Q Mr. Wescott, you belong to the American Marketing
8 Association?
9 A Yes, I do.
10 Q And that's an association of people involved in
11 marketing?
12 A Correct.
13 Q Do you have a degree in marketing?
14 A Not specifically in marketing.
15 Q But part of your job at the hospital center is
16 marketing development; is that correct?
17 A Yes, correct.
18 Q The American Marketing Association, do you know how
19 they got your name?
20 A I believe, if I recall, I applied for membership a
21 few years ago.
22 Q Did you receive a letter from them before you applied
23 for membership? 24 A I wouldn't recall. 25 Q So, they might have received your name from a mailing
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4779 Wescott-cross/Schoer
1 list, sent a mailing to you and other people involved in
2 the marketing field to have you join the American
3 Marketing Association; is that correct?
4 A Well, that could be.
5 Q When you joined the Association you paid a membership
6 fee?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And you received certain benefits as a result of
9 paying that membership fee?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And one of the benefits are you received was some
12 sort of magazine from the American Marketing Association?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And provided you information about the field, about
15 things going on; is tha
t correct?
16 A Um-hum.
17 Q Did you receive any magazines with -- from Who's Who
18 Worldwide with respect to your membership?
19 A No.
20 Q The American Marketing Association, does it provide
21 you with any other benefits other than this magazine?
22 A Educational conferences are offered at an additional
23 fee. 24 Q You have to pay to go to seminars, right? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4780 Wescott-cross/Schoer
1 Q And sometimes when they offer a seminar, you might
2 take advantage of going to that seminar, and other times
3 you might not take advantage of it because it might be
4 inconvenient?
5 A Yes, or the topic is not of interest.
6 Q Or it is too far away?
7 A Could be.
8 Q Or you don't want to pay the cost, right? Any number
9 of things why you would want to t
ake advantage or not take
10 advantage of that potential benefit; is that right?
11 A Yes, that's right.
12 Q Do they offer any other benefits like discount
13 purchases?
14 A I think they do, but I am not for certain.
15 Q Okay.
16 Do you know if Who's Who Worldwide offered any
17 benefits to you as a member?
18 A I am not aware of those.
19 Q When you had this conversation who asked you to join
20 as a member, were you told of any benefits provided?
21 A It seems in that phone conversation there was a
22 member of some other benefits, but I can't be more
23 specific. I don't recall. 24 Q But, in any event, you didn't take advantage of any 25 of the benefits that might have been offered to you by
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4781 Wescott-cross/Schoer
1 your membership; is that correct?
2
A That's correct.
3 Q In addition to the American Marketing Association,
4 you belong to the American Hospital Association; is that
5 correct?
6 A Yes. As an individual member.
7 Q A similar type organization?
8 A It is a specific professional interest group within
9 the AHA, yes.
10 Q Again, it is similar, you pay a membership, you get
11 certain benefits, you can use the benefits, you may have
12 not use the benefits, it is up to you, right?
13 A Yes, that's right.
14 Q You also work -- belong to another organization,
15 PRSA, what is that?
16 A The Public Relations Society of America.
17 Q A similar type of organization as well; is that
18 right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q You don't know whether the Public Relations Society
21 of America got your name originally from a mailing list,
22 do you?
23 A As I recall I was invited to a loc
al chapter meeting 24 many years ago and that's how I became involved with the 25 group.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4782 Wescott-cross/Schoer
1 Q What about the American Hospital Association, do you
2 know if they got your name from a mailing list?
3 A I wouldn't recall.
4 Q The fact that they got your name from a mailing list
5 or some other means of initially contacting you, that
6 doesn't affect how you -- if you want to purchase
7 memberships in those organizations, does it?
8 A I am more likely to pay attention to the offer if
9 someone, another individual whom I know and respect --
10 Q What I am asking you is if you -- when you joined
11 the American Hospital Association, or American Hospital
12 Association, or American Marketing Association or the
13 Public Relations Society of America, you joined those
14 organizations because you believed you could get a benefit
15 from that organization; is that correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q It doesn't matter how they got your name to send you
18 the original solicitation, did it?
19 A I guess I believed if there was a real strong
20 professional benefit regardless, I would have looked into
21 it and decided one way or another to join or to not.
22 Q You joined it because there were benefits available
23 to you; is that correct? 24 A I believed there would be benefits. 25 Q Do you use all the benefits provided by the Public
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4783 Wescott-cross/Schoer
1 Relations Society of America?
2 A Some, not all.
3 Q Do you use all the benefits of the American Hospital
4 Association?
5 A Probably not all.
6 Q Do you use all the benefits of the A
merican Marketing
7 Association?
8 A No.
9 MR. SCHOER: No further questions.
10 THE COURT: Anything else?
11
12 CROSS-EXAMINATION
13 BY MR. DUNN:
14 Q Good afternoon.
15 A Good afternoon.
16 Q My name is Thomas Dunn.
17 Mr. Wescott, you said that the marketing
18 association that you belonged to, you don't know as you
19 sit there now as to whether your name was obtained from a
20 mailing list, you don't know?
21 A I can't recall.
22 Q And later you said to Mr. Schoer that, concerning
23 mailing lists and associations that you might have 24 investigated it further to find out; is that right? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4784 Wescott-cross/Dunn
1 Q But you never did investigate it; is that correct?
2 You never investigated whether the health association
got
3 your name from a mailing list? You never investigated
4 that, correct?
5 A No. We are talking about the American Marketing
6 Association?
7 Q I am sorry, American Marketing. You never
8 investigated that?
9 A No.
10 Q You wanted to be a member, right?
11 A I was familiar with them from academic -- from
12 graduate school.
13 Q It didn't matter where you got the name from, you
14 wanted -- they got your name from, you wanted to be a
15 member, correct?
16 A Correct.
17 Q When the government first contacted you by mail, that
18 they were investigating or having something to do with
19 Who's Who Worldwide, they asked you what was the primary
20 reason for you purchasing a membership; is that correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And you didn't state that you did it because you were
23 nominated that you joined, correct, by another per
son in 24 your field? You didn't write that down and tell them 25 that, did you?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4785 Wescott-cross/Dunn
1 A I guess I would have to look at my questionnaire.
2 Q Sure.
3 MR. DUNN: If I may approach, your Honor?
4 THE COURT: Yes.
5 (Counsel approaches the witness stand.)
6 Q Directing your attention to
7 Government's Exhibit 3500-PW-1, take a look at question
8 number 25 and read it to yourself.
9 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
10 proceedings.)
11 Does that refresh your recollection, yes or no?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And does it refresh your recollection that you did
14 not state anything about a nomination in there; is that
15 correct?
16 A Yes, that's correct.
17 Q The first time the issue of nomination in fact was
18 mentioned to
you was in a phone call from someone within
19 the Postal Service; is that correct?
20 A That may be correct.
21 Q During the times -- withdrawn.
22 You met on one occasion with the members of the
23 prosecution team, Mr. White, Ms. Scott, and Mr. Pagano; is 24 that correct? 25 A Well, just in this last day here.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4786 Wescott-cross/Dunn
1 Q This is the first time that you had a face to face
2 conversation with them?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Have they spoken with you on the phone?
5 A Yes.
6 Q When they spoke with you on the phone, they brought
7 up the issue of a mailing list?
8 A Yes.
9 Q They told you it was important, correct?
10 A Correct.
11 Q They emphasized I; is that correct?
12 A I don't know, emphasis? I suppose there was some
13 emphasis.
14 Q When you got the phone call from Who's Who Worldwide,
15 you felt good about the fact that you were considered for
16 membership in a Who's Who organization; is that correct?
17 A Yes, that's correct.
18 Q And it made you feel good and did something for your
19 ego and your self-esteem; is that correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And that's natural, isn't it?
22 A I guess.
23 Q And that's why you joined, correct? 24 A Yes. 25 Q That was the reason, right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4787 Wescott-cross/Neville
1 A I would say yes.
2 MR. DUNN: I have no further questions, your
3 Honor.
4 THE COURT: Anything else?
5
6 CROSS-EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. NEVILLE:
8 Q Mr. Wescott, hi.
9 A Hi.
10 Q I am Jim Neville.
11 Do you have 36-C?
12 MR. NEVILLE: Is that
in evidence?
13 MS. SCOTT: It should be up there.
14 Q I am going to ask you to take a look at
15 Government's Exhibit 36-C, Ms. Wescott, and ask you if you
16 can look at the right hand top corner as to whether that
17 refreshes your recollection about with whom you had a
18 phone conversation at Who's Who Worldwide?
19 A The name Marilyn Pierce is listed under account
20 executive number two. And that's the individual who left
21 a telephone message with my secretary.
22 Robert Lamb doesn't really ring a bell. But I
23 know when I returned the call to Marilyn, I spoke instead 24 with a man, a male. I don't know if it was Robert Lamb. 25 Q That name is Robert Lamb?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4788 Wescott-cross/Neville
1 A On the form, yes.
2 Q Could he have mentioned his name as Bob?
3 A I suppose he cou
ld have.
4 Q And you are sure it was Marilyn Pierce with whom you
5 spoke?
6 A I never spoke with Marilyn Pierce. Marilyn Pierce
7 made an incoming call to my office, and my secretary spoke
8 with Marilyn Pierce.
9 Q Do you see Marilyn Pierce here in the courtroom?
10 A I don't know Marilyn Pierce.
11 Q Do you have any idea where Marilyn Pierce is?
12 A No, I am sorry.
13 Q How about Robert Lamb?
14 A I don't know.
15 Q Or Bob?
16 A I don't know him.
17 Q Do you see him in the courtroom?
18 A I wouldn't know who to look for.
19 MR. NEVILLE: Mr. White?
20 Your Honor, I would offer 36-C into evidence at
21 this time.
22 MS. SCOTT: No objection.
23 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 36-C, for 24 Charley in evidence. 25 (Government's Exhibit 36-C received in evidence.)
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICI
AL COURT REPORTER 4789 Wescott-cross/Neville
1 MR. NEVILLE: May I let the jury see this, your
2 Honor?
3 THE COURT: Yes.
4 MR. NEVILLE: Thank you.
5 (Whereupon, the exhibit/exhibits were published
6 to the jury.)
7 Q Are you a medical doctor yourself, sir?
8 A No, sir.
9 Q I bet you would be a good one. You have a good
10 bedside manner.
11 A Thank you.
12 MR. NEVILLE: Take care.
13 THE COURT: Anything else?
14 Any redirect?
15 MS. SCOTT: Yes, your Honor.
16
17 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
18 BY MS. SCOTT:
19 Q Mr. Wescott, do you remember being asked early in the
20 cross-examination by Mr. Trabulus about the answer you
21 gave to the question of how you were first contacted by
22 the company?
23 A Yes, where I made a mistake in filling out my 24 questionnaire? 25 Q Yes. Do y
ou remember testifying that your answer in
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4790 Wescott-redirect/Scott
1 the questionnaire as to how you were first contacted was
2 mistaken?
3 A Yes. I reversed the sequence.
4 Q Tell us how you came to realize that you made this
5 mistake?
6 A Yes. Later on, I guess about the time I received the
7 plaque, I went back and referred to my files, you know,
8 bills and receipts and things and located that original
9 letter, where I made a notation of the date I sent the
10 card back.
11 I mean, it was clear that the sequence -- that
12 the first content was the letter, and then I returned the
13 card, and subsequently I had a phone call exchange.
14 Q Did you have an opportunity to review these documents
15 sometimes after you filled out the questionnaire?
16 A Which documents?
17 Q The documents you just described, the letters you
18 received from the company.
19 A Well, I had kept the original letter that I had
20 received in my files.
21 Q And did you --
22 A And looked at it again subsequently.
23 Q And was that after you filled out the questionnaire 24 that the postal inspector sent you? 25 A No. I would say it was right about the time, as I
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4791 Wescott-redirect/Scott
1 recall, that I received the plaque, which would have been
2 before I had received the postal inspector survey or
3 questionnaire.
4 Q Now, do you remember Mr. Trabulus reading names from
5 you, or names from the book of Who's Who Worldwide
6 members, of people who were members?
7 A I recall the names being read, but I don't know if
8 they were from the book or where.
9 Q And do you remember Mr. Trabulus asking you whether
10 any of those people had nominated you for membership,
11 could have nominated you?
12 A Yes, I do recall that.
13 Q Now, did you ever learn who had nominated you?
14 A No, I don't know.
15 Q Did you ever ask anyone whether they had nominated
16 you for membership?
17 A Well, in the course of the telephone conversation
18 with the man, maybe Robert Lamb, who I had asked, I asked
19 who nominated me. But he didn't give me a direct answer.
20 Q Do you remember what he said to you when you asked?
21 A He said that they don't really identify who nominates
22 you. It is a professional peer who would respect your
23 professional accomplishments. 24 Q Now, do you remember being asked questions about 25 other associations you were a member of?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4792 Wescott-redirect/Scott
1 A Yes. I was asked about several professional
2 societies and organizations I am a member of.
3 Q One of them being the American Marketing Association?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And the other one, the American Hospital Association?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Do you remember being asked whether any of those
8 associations might have gotten your name from mailing
9 lists?
10 A Yes, I was asked that.
11 Q Mr. Wescott, is being nominated the same thing as
12 being taken from a mailing list in your mind?
13 MR. DUNN: Objection, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: I didn't hear the question because
15 you interrupted counsel.
16 MR. DUNN: I am sorry, your Honor, I thought she
17 finished.
18 THE COURT: I didn't hear the question. Did you
19 get it, Mr. Reporter?
20 THE COURT REPORTER: Yes, your Honor.
21 (Whereupon, the
court reporter reads the
22 requested material.)
23 THE COURT: You are objecting to that? 24 MR. DUNN: Yes. 25 THE COURT: Overruled.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4793 Wescott-redirect/Scott
1 A No, it is not the same.
2 Q Can you explain what you mean by that?
3 A Sure. In my mind there is a lot of credibility,
4 influence. If there is an individual I know and whose
5 opinion I respect who has suggested or recommended me for
6 something, that has a much stronger influence on me
7 than -- I receive many things based on a mailing list, but
8 don't have the personal recommendation attached.
9 Q Now, do you remember being asked other questions
10 about your answers to the postal inspector's questionnaire
11 by another lawyer in the room?
12 A Yes, I do.
13 Q And do you remember being asked about the a
nswer that
14 you gave to one of the questions about what was the
15 first -- the most important reason of why you bought this
16 membership?
17 A Yes, I was asked that question.
18 Q And do you remember it being suggested to you that at
19 the time you filled out the questionnaire you weren't
20 really thinking about the nomination as a reason for
21 purchasing the membership?
22 A I am sorry, do I recall being asked that?
23 Q Do you recall the defense attorney suggesting to you 24 that when you purchased the membership you had not really 25 considered the nomination to be that important to you?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4794 Wescott-redirect/Scott
1 MR. LEE: Objection to form, your Honor.
2 THE COURT: May I hear the question,
3 Mr. Reporter?
4 (Whereupon, the court reporter reads the
5 reques
ted material.)
6 MS. SCOTT: Your Honor, I will withdraw the
7 question.
8 Q Do you remember the attorney asking you about whether
9 you mentioned nominations in your answer to the
10 questionnaire?
11 A Yes, I believe I was asked, yes.
12 Q And do you remember him suggesting to you that you
13 did not hear nominations in your answer to the
14 questionnaire?
15 A Yes, I do.
16 Q Now, I am going to show you the questionnaire.
17 MR. DUNN: Your Honor, I have an objection.
18 THE COURT: Go ahead and say it.
19 MR. DUNN: There was one specific question
20 addressing nominations that was asked. Ms. Scott is using
21 the plural as in questions. The cross-examination dealt
22 with one specific area of the questionnaire. Therefore, I
23 would object to this area as being improper redirect. I 24 feel it is an improper refreshing of his recollection as
25 to the question that was asked.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4795 Wescott-redirect/Scott
1 THE COURT: Overruled.
2 Q Now, Mr. Wescott, I have asked you to look at your
3 questionnaire, Government's Exhibit 3500-PW-1, and take a
4 look at question number 15.
5 (Handed to the witness.)
6 Q Now, that question reads: If you were told anything
7 about how the company obtained your name, how does it
8 affect your decision to purchase a directory or
9 membership?
10 Do you see the answer you gave to that question?
11 A Yes, I do.
12 Q Could you read it aloud for us, please?
13 A I wrote, I felt flattered that others in the
14 directory had suggested me.
15 Q Now, if you take a look at question number 14-B, on
16 the page preceding that, and the question asks, were you
17 told your name was ob
tained from a mailing list, and did
18 you ask the salesperson where they had obtained your
19 name? Do you see the answer you gave to that question?
20 A Yes, I do.
21 Q Can you read it aloud for us, please.
22 A Yes. My answer was: I was not told about any
23 mailing list. I asked the salesman how he had learned 24 about me, and he said that, quote, other prominent people 25 had recommended me, unquote.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4796 Wescott-redirect/Scott
1 Q Now, if you take a look at page 5 of that
2 questionnaire, at number 26 --
3 A I am sorry, question 26?
4 Q Yes.
5 A Yes.
6 Q And that question reads: What were the most
7 important statements or representations made by the
8 company which affected your decision to purchase a
9 directory or become a member. Do you see --
10 MR.
JENKS: Objection.
11 I am sorry. Are you finished?
12 MS. SCOTT: Yes.
13 THE COURT: I didn't hear it because the last
14 word or words were blurred with Mr. Jenks' objection.
15 Which is one of the reasons I have asked counsel to do
16 that. But on the other hand they want to make sure to get
17 up in time so the answer doesn't come in. It is a
18 balancing.
19 This time, Mr. Jenks just about made it.
20 What was the question?
21 MS. SCOTT: The question in the questionnaire --
22 THE COURT: I want to hear the question.
23 MR. JENKS: I don't know if we need to repeat the 24 question. My objection is simply as to reading questions 25 and answers from documents not in evidence. The
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4797 Wescott-redirect/Scott
1 questionnaire is not in evidence.
2 THE COURT: That's correct.
Sustained.
3 MS. SCOTT: Your Honor, I am trying to correct a
4 misimpression created by the questioning on
5 cross-examination.
6 THE COURT: If there was a misimpression you can
7 correct it without reading the answers, by having the
8 witness look at the document, refresh his recollection,
9 and then testify as to whether he said what you say he
10 said, instead of reading from a document that is not in
11 evidence.
12 MS. SCOTT: Okay.
13 THE COURT: And I should have sustained
14 Mr. Dunn's objection also.
15 MS. SCOTT: Okay.
16 THE COURT: I owe you one, Mr. Dunn.
17 MR. DUNN: That's okay, your Honor.
18 Q Mr. West Scott, if you look at question number 26,
19 does it ask in substance what the most important
20 statements were that were made to you at the time of your
21 purchase that led to your purchase?
22 A Yes, that's the esse
nce of the question.
23 Q And have you looked at your answer to that question 24 that you gave when you filled out the questionnaire? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4798 Wescott-redirect/Scott
1 Q And does reading that answer refresh your
2 recollection as to how you answered that question?
3 A Yes, it does.
4 Q Can you tell us how you answered the question?
5 A I pointed out that this was an exclusive group of
6 leading professionals who suggested that I belonged in
7 their company.
8 MS. SCOTT: Your Honor, may I have a minute?
9 THE COURT: Yes.
10 MS. SCOTT: Thank you.
11 (Ms. Scott confers with Mr. White.)
12 Q Now, Mr. Wescott, you have seen the letter sent to
13 you by Who's Who Worldwide in court today during your
14 testimony; is that correct?
15 A Yes, I have.
16 Q
And you described for us the notation that you made
17 about the date that you returned the card that was
18 included -- enclosed with that letter; do you remember
19 that?
20 A Yes, I handwrote it at the time.
21 Q Did you have an opportunity before coming into court
22 today to review these documents?
23 A Yes. I mean I got that letter out of my file at some 24 point and looked at it. 25 Q And did you review any other documents that you had
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4799 Wescott-redirect/Scott
1 either sent to or received from Who's Who Worldwide before
2 you came to court today?
3 A Well, I think there were some photocopies of
4 documents that were attached to the questionnaire, as I
5 recall.
6 Q Are you referring to photocopies of the card, for
7 instance?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And the inv
oice?
10 A Right.
11 MS. SCOTT: Thank you, your Honor. I have no
12 further questions.
13 THE COURT: Anything else?
14 MR. TRABULUS: Could I just see 36-G?
15 (Document handed to Mr. Trabulus.)
16 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you, sir. This is not it.
17 MR. WHITE: 36-E is the letter.
18 THE COURT: There is no 36-G, for George in
19 evidence. I don't know what you are referring to.
20 MR. TRABULUS: It is E. Thank you.
21 THE COURT: That's the solicitation letter. Is
22 that correct?
23 MR. TRABULUS: Correct, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: Ms. Scott, why don't you pick up 25 these exhibits. The jury has concluded their viewing of
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4800 Wescott-recross/Trabulus
1 them.
2
3 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. TRABULUS:
5 Q Mr. Wescott, the handwritten notatio
n of the date, is
6 this the one you reviewed?
7 A Yes.
8 Q It says returned 10/28/93?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And that's the date you returned the card?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And that's the only handwritten notation on that?
13 A Yes. It is my only handwritten notation on that
14 letter.
15 Q And it just refers to the date on which you returned
16 the card; is that correct?
17 A Yes, that's correct.
18 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you, no further questions.
19 THE COURT: Anything else?
20 MR. LEE: I have one question, your Honor.
21
22 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. LEE: 24 Q Good afternoon, sir. 25 A Good afternoon.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4801 Wescott-recross/Lee
1 Q I believe Ms. Scott just asked you about whether you
2 had reviewed a letter from Who's Who that had been m
ailed
3 to you, 36-E, before testifying; is that correct? Did you
4 review this?
5 A Yes.
6 Q You are looking at Government's Exhibit 36-E; is that
7 right, sir?
8 A Correct.
9 Q And I believe in your prior testimony you have
10 indicated some familiarity with Who's Who in America; is
11 that correct?
12 A I believe it is in America.
13 Q You are aware there is a Who's Who in America; you
14 have seen that?
15 A I have heard it.
16 Q That's an organization you hold in high esteem?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And I would ask you to look at Defendant's Exhibit Z
19 in evidence.
20 Do you see that that is a letter from Who's Who
21 in America?
22 A A copy of one, it appears, yet.
23 Q And you see the copy from the letter of Who's Who 24 Worldwide, if I am correct, the first sentence which has 25 been highlighted, I have d
one -- not done that, it says
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4802 Wescott-recross/Lee
1 you -- why don't you read the first sentence.
2 A The first sentence says you were recently nominated
3 for inclusion in the Who's Who Registry.
4 Q So the record is clear, that's the letter from Who's
5 Who Worldwide; is that correct?
6 A Yes, on their letterhead.
7 Q Can you read the first sentence from the letter from
8 Who's Who in America?
9 A Yes. You have been nominated as a biographical
10 candidate for the forthcoming 23rd edition of Who's Who in
11 the East.
12 MR. LEE: I have no further questions.
13 THE COURT: Anything else?
14 MS. SCOTT: Nothing further, your Honor.
15 THE COURT: You may step down.
16 (Whereupon, at this time the witness left the
17 witness stand.)
18 THE COURT: Let's get Mr.
Watstein back.
19 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, the reason for the
20 juggling was not only these witness' schedules, but
21 Mr. Watstein's schedules as well.
22 THE COURT: You don't want him back?
23 MR. WHITE: No. He also had a plane to catch. 24 THE COURT: A plane? You better come up. 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4803
1 (Whereupon, at this time the following took place
2 at the sidebar.)
3 THE COURT: That I didn't hear before. What do
4 you mean he had a plane? Where is he?
5 MR. WHITE: We went back to get on a plane to
6 Florida. He had a family thing to attention.
7 THE COURT: When is he returning?
8 MR. WHITE: I was expecting to have him back
9 either Friday or next week.
10 THE COURT: That was not related to me. I didn't
11 know that. If I did I would not have interrupted his
12 testimony, I tell you that right now.
13 MR. JENKS: It is extremely unfair, your Honor,
14 for the defense to cross-examine him --
15 THE COURT: You better get him back tomorrow
16 morning. You get him on the phone, your operators and get
17 him back tomorrow morning, or I may very well entertain an
18 application to strike his entire testimony.
19 MR. WHITE: Okay.
20 THE COURT: I was not told by you that the
21 interruption was based on him going to Florida. All I was
22 told is that you had two witnesses that came in. And I
23 accommodated you by interrupting. Had I known that he was 24 going away, I would not have done that. 25 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, maybe I didn't make it
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4804
1 clear --
2 THE COURT: You didn't say anything about it.
3 MS. SCOTT: It is in the record. He
made a
4 comment about it. Perhaps it wasn't as clear as it could
5 have been. He didn't explain it perhaps. The defense
6 attorneys had it explained as well.
7 MR. JENKS: I didn't hear airplane business, that
8 he was flying to Florida, Judge.
9 THE COURT: Excuse me. You say that you told me
10 that Mr. Watstein was going away to Florida on a plane?
11 MR. WHITE: No, your Honor. I did not say that.
12 I thought I said both to accommodate Mr. Watstein's
13 schedule as well as these two other witnesses, we had to
14 make an adjustment.
15 I apologize, your Honor. It didn't seem to me
16 that it would have been that big a deal. Obviously I am
17 wrong. Earlier in the trial we had Mr. Rosenblatt on and
18 off, and Ms. Rieger on and off, separated by a number of
19 days, long weekends, Rosenblatt was on and off several
20 times. It didn't seem to me that this wa
s that different
21 of a situation. If I miscalculated, it is my fault and I
22 apologize.
23 MR. NELSON: Your Honor -- 24 THE COURT: You don't run this trial, I do. And 25 whether you believe that he should be allowed to come back
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4805
1 three or four or five days later, is not important. It is
2 whether I believe it.
3 The second thing is you did not communicate to me
4 that he would not be available immediately following these
5 two witnesses, because I believed that he would be
6 available. When you said Watstein's schedule, I had no
7 idea that it meant he was going away somewhere and would
8 not be back for four or five days. I had no idea. I
9 would not have permitted him to do it. On the other hand,
10 I would have directed him to have remained.
11 MR. WHITE: Your Honor
, like I said, I know you
12 run the courtroom. If I was mistaken, I am sorry.
13 THE COURT: You are mistaken, and you are going
14 to rectify it by getting him back here tomorrow morning.
15 MR. WHITE: Could I just add one other thing that
16 may factor into this?
17 One of the reasons I thought this wouldn't
18 present that much of a problem is because we have
19 scheduled, in order to keep the trial moving I think three
20 more customers tomorrow, and two more customers I think on
21 Friday. So Mr. Watstein's testimony would have been
22 interrupted for the major part of the day, assuming your
23 Honor would have been willing to do that, tomorrow and 24 Friday as well. 25 Again, I miscalculated. I should have told you
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4806
1 and I apologize. But in light of the fact that we have
2 three customers coming in tomorrow, and I believe two on
3 Friday -- I mean, I will get Mr. Watstein back here. But
4 if we do those three first, he may or may not get on even
5 for a small time tomorrow or Friday afternoon.
6 MR. NELSON: Might I be heard for a moment?
7 THE COURT: Yes.
8 MR. NELSON: I accommodated the government and
9 the Court by interrupting my cross-examination at a
10 critical juncture of a witness that is an extremely
11 significant witness as it relates to my client. And to
12 some extent based on discussions with my client,
13 compromised some of his rights to accommodate the
14 government in proceeding with the trial, so I would be
15 able to complete the extent of my cross-examination later
16 this afternoon.
17 I was unaware of the fact until a few moments ago
18 that Mr. Watstein was still not present in the courthouse.
19
I would probably have been able to complete the
20 cross-examination within 15 or 20 minutes. I indicated to
21 the Court it would take me approximately another half an
22 hour to complete that cross-examination.
23 While I understand the government is trying to 24 move the case. But moving the case and my client's 25 constitutional rights are two very different things.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4807
1 It is very nice that the government would like to
2 accommodate witnesses they have elected to fly in from all
3 over the country. My client is sitting here facing a
4 substantial period of incarceration. I have interrupted
5 my cross-examination to accommodate people that the
6 government has elected to fly in here.
7 THE COURT: I would not get as dramatic as that,
8 Mr. Nelson. I don't believe it is that earth shaking.
9 However, we are going to get him back.
10 If your other witnesses, which are cumulative,
11 certainly, namely, the customers, certainly, you cannot
12 equate the importance of those witnesses with
13 Mr. Watstein, whom I believe is the key witness in the
14 case, and whose testimony and transcripts and tape
15 recordings are a major part of you proceeding against
16 these defendants. He is a big player in this case.
17 Had I known, as I said, I would not have let him
18 go. Now you say he is gone.
19 MR. WHITE: I think he is gone. I know he is
20 gone from the courthouse.
21 THE COURT: And he is a cooperating witness. He
22 is subject to your call. He has gotten a 5K letter. And
23 he is going to be back here tomorrow morning, if you have 24 to keep your other witnesses waiting. If that is so, so 25 be it. Let it be. We are going to finish him tomorrow
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4808
1 morning. That's what we have to do, to give everybody a
2 chance to cross-examine him. I believe that's the fair
3 thing to do, and that is what we will do.
4 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I will try to reach him.
5 I don't know what time his plane was.
6 THE COURT: You know his home address in Florida,
7 I assume, his home telephone number.
8 MR. WHITE: I do.
9 THE COURT: You can communicate with him. He was
10 rather cooperative up until the time he was sentenced by
11 Judge Mishler to six months home detention. And he better
12 be back here tomorrow morning.
13 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, like I said, I will do
14 whatever I can to get him here.
15 THE COURT: You have two gentlemen sitting around
16 lounging near the table there. Let them get on the pipe
17 right now and get
him back. And you say I am directing
18 him to come back.
19 MR. WHITE: That you are directing, and not me.
20 THE COURT: I am directing him to come back.
21 MR. WHITE: I will do that, your Honor.
22 THE COURT: What do you have to proceed now?
23 MR. WHITE: We have more tapes. 24 I just want to make sure I understand. 25 So, can we put on -- can we put on -- I just have
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4809
1 to speak to -- figure out logistically.
2 Whatever time his flight is, can we put on
3 another customer, something in the morning until
4 Mr. Watstein gets here?
5 THE COURT: If he is going to be here in the
6 morning, yes. But he has to be here tomorrow morning.
7 MR. WHITE: Okay.
8 THE COURT: I will not wait around for him. You
9 will put another witness on. But he is going to get on
1
0 tomorrow morning sometime. You will get a hold of him and
11 get him here.
12 MR. WHITE: Okay.
13 You said his cross-examination would be complete
14 in the morning. From the length of things --
15 THE COURT: If you don't get him here in the
16 morning early it may not be.
17 MR. WHITE: If he starts at 9:30, I don't know if
18 he will be finished by 12:30.
19 THE COURT: Mr. White, I am directing you to be
20 here tomorrow morning. I don't want to spar.
21 MR. WHITE: I don't want to spar either.
22 THE COURT: He is a cooperating witness. He is
23 under your control as a matter of law. Get him here 24 tomorrow morning. I don't want to hear any excuses. 25 MR. WHITE: I didn't mean to argue. I am sorry.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4810
1 THE COURT: I don't know what you are talking
2 about.
3 MR. WHITE: Let me make it clear.
4 I was trying to figure out when I should tell him
5 he was to be here until.
6 THE COURT: I don't know when he is going to be
7 here until. He will be here until the cross-examination
8 is over. That's what you tell him. You tell him I said
9 so.
10 MR. WHITE: Believe me, I will.
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 Let's proceed.
13 MR. TRABULUS: Can I just state for the record,
14 in response to Ms. Scott's comment that defense counsel
15 had this explained to them. It was not explained to me
16 until after the fact. Until after the application was
17 made to interrupt his testimony. And then I was talking
18 to Mr. White about whether or not Mr. West was going to be
19 back this afternoon. And that's when I heard he might not
20 be back until next week. I certainly would have not stood
21 silently by if I had not known thi
s.
22 MR. WHITE: I understand your Honor's ruling
23 perfectly. I will speak to Mr. West or have someone speak 24 to him. 25 I think a lot of this from the defense is
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4811
1 posturing. I don't see what prejudice accrues to them
2 from waiting a couple of hours, or even a couple of days
3 from cross-examining, Mr. West.
4 MR. JENKS: Excuse me. It is highly unusual in a
5 federal trial when the informant is on the witness stand,
6 to break the informant in the middle of the
7 cross-examination and sends him away for three or four
8 days. How many cases have you seen that happen?
9 THE COURT: Excuse me. If I need your help
10 Mr. Jenks, I will ask for it.
11 MR. JENKS: I am sorry, your Honor, but I don't
12 believe it is posturing.
13 THE COURT: Excuse me.
14 I d
on't blame them for a little posturing.
15 MR. WHITE: Neither do I.
16 THE COURT: If I had the opportunity -- I am sure
17 what you did was inadvertent, Mr. White. I don't ascribe
18 a sinister motive to it. You neglected to tell me.
19 MR. WHITE: In full.
20 THE COURT: Anything about him leaving,
21 anything. I didn't get a whisper of that. But that was
22 only an inadvertence on your part, I know that.
23 But I don't blame them for taking advantage of 24 it. Mr. Jenks is quite right. Generally it is quite 25 unusual to do that.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4812
1 So, in order to rectify the situation, no harm
2 done, just bring him in tomorrow morning. No problem.
3 There is no prejudice to anybody by bringing him
4 in tomorrow morning. There would be no real prejudice,
5 except maybe if I were defense c
ounsel, I would, after
6 they posture a while, I would say, okay, bring him in next
7 week. Let me get a crack at him after a hiatus of time.
8 That is maybe what I would do. But they don't want to do
9 that. They want to get him now.
10 MR. WHITE: Fine.
11 THE COURT: We will bring him in tomorrow
12 morning.
13 Let's proceed.
14
15 (Whereupon, at this time the following takes
16 place in open court.)
17 THE COURT: You may proceed.
18 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, we have some tapes to
19 play now.
20 THE COURT: Very well.
21 Would you just hold it a minute?
22 THE COURT: Sure.
23 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the 24 proceedings.) 25 THE COURT: All right.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4813
1 MR. WHITE: We will play Exhibit 1361, the
2 transcript
is 1361 A, the date is December 20th, 1994. It
3 is a call to Who's Who Worldwide. The salesperson is
4 Annette Haley.
5 (Tape is played.)
6 MR. WHITE: The next one we will play is Exhibit
7 1374. The transcript is 1374-A. The call is to Sterling
8 Who's Who. And the salesperson is Noreen, N O R E E N,
9 Gates, G A T E S.
10 (Tape is played.)
11 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, we have another tape, but
12 it might run us past 5:00 p.m.
13 THE COURT: Then we will take a break.
14 Members of the jury we will recess until 9:30
15 tomorrow morning. On Monday, the 23rd of February, we
16 will be recessing early, at 3:15 on Monday. I have to go
17 into Brooklyn for a very special ceremony. One of the
18 judges of this court is being honored with a doctor of law
19 degree by a major law school. He was my predecessor in
20 this very courtroom before he went to the U
nited States
21 Court of Appeals. In fact, there were three judges who
22 used this courtroom historically. The first one has his
23 portrait on the wall. He went to the United States Court 24 of Appeals for the Second Circuit. His name is George 25 Pratt. The second one is Frank Altimari, who I am going
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4814
1 in to on nor on Monday. He went into the United States
2 Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit. And the third is
3 me. And I am not going to the United States Court of
4 Appeals for the Second Circuit. I am happy here.
5 We will in the meantime -- well, so you know you
6 will recess early on Monday afternoon.
7 Please do not discuss the case either among
8 yourselves or anyone else. Keep an open mind. Come to no
9 conclusions.
10 We will recess until 9:30.
11 Have a ni
ce evening.
12 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the
13 courtroom.)
14 THE COURT: Mr. White, are we all straightened
15 out about tomorrow?
16 MR. WHITE: If I can have one moment to
17 straighten it out?
18 THE COURT: Yes.
19 MR. WALLENSTEIN: You did say you were going to
20 the Second Circuit in May, Judge. Does that count?
21 THE COURT: No. I am. But that is a temporary
22 assignment, because they need help.
23 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, we made contact with 24 Mr. West who will be here bright and early tomorrow 25 morning.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4815
1 THE COURT: Who else do you have tomorrow,
2 assuming we get through with Mr. West?
3 MR. WHITE: Right.
4 Madeline --
5 THE COURT: Do we call him Mr. White -- West or
6 Mr. Watstein?
7 MR. WHITE: Call h
im Mr. White. I have been
8 referring to him as Mr. West.
9 THE COURT: All right.
10 MR. WHITE: Madeline Walden, Ms. Andreas
11 Henderson and Terry Swinney.
12 How do we proceed? Mr. West will be here in the
13 morning.
14 THE COURT: Put him on.
15 MR. WHITE: Can we again interrupt him to put
16 these people who are from out of town on, just as long as
17 he stays here?
18 THE COURT: As long as he stays here I will let
19 you do that.
20 MR. WHITE: All right.
21 THE COURT: You wanted to discuss this persistent
22 statement?
23 MR. WHITE: Yes. 24 I think where we left off when I was delaying 25 everyone's lunch was discussing in what way it was
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4816
1 consistent.
2 Your Honor, may I get my file for a moment?
3 I was trying to explain
why in the government's
4 view it was sufficiently consistent with the prior
5 testimony.
6 I was trying to point out when it happened at the
7 end of the day, and your Honor termed it, quote, somewhat
8 consistent with her testimony at trial. And that's on
9 page 3907 of the transcript.
10 It is consistent for two reasons.
11 First in terms of the time, and then in terms of
12 what she actually said.
13 What I wanted to say during the lunchtime is that
14 the timing was such that there are two testimonies
15 overlapping. In other words, Ms. Gaspar did this between
16 September 9th and September 23rd, 1994. Ms. Benjamin's
17 testimony was that this took place a few weeks or several
18 weeks before Ms. Gaspar left and it happened to be in late
19 October of '94. So it puts it in around late or
20 mid-September that this is taking place. So in that sense
21 it is consistent with Ms. Gaspar's testimony.
22 Then the specifics of it is that she said,
23 Ms. Gaspar said that they were -- as they were driving 24 back to the Lake Success office after one of these 25 bankruptcy hearings, Mr. Gordon and Mr. Reffsin told her
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4817
1 to create these logs.
2 Ms. Benjamin's testimony is that after a meeting
3 at the Lake Success office with Mr. Reffsin and
4 Mr. Gordon, Ms. Gaspar comes to her observation extremely
5 upset, and says that the reason for that is that
6 Mr. Gordon and Mr. Reffsin have asked her to do certain
7 things she is not happy with.
8 Now, it is unlikely that that is a reaction,
9 given the way Ms. Benjamin described Ms. Gaspar in that
10 meeting, to something mundane or everyday as they want to
11 cut her salary.
12
Ms. Benjamin said that Ms. Gaspar was nearly in
13 tears over the prospect of what Mr. Gordon and Mr. Reffsin 14 told her to do.
15 In addition, she is not saying Mr. Gordon was
16 doing something to her, or just Mr. Reffsin was doing
17 something to her. If it was just cutting her salary or
18 cutting her benefits or telling her she was fired, it is
19 something Mr. Gordon would do.
20 This is both of them, Mr. Gordon and
21 Mr. Reffsin --
22 THE COURT: Where in the record does it -- does
23 it appear what she said? 24 MR. WHITE: What Ms. Benjamin said? 25 THE COURT: Yes. What page is that?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4818
1 MR. WHITE: It is page 3894 and 3895.
2 THE COURT: That went into evidence at that
3 point. Did I remove it?
4 MR. TRABULUS: Not yet, your Honor. I objected
5 to it
on the grounds of hearsay and at the close of the
6 day I asked you to reconsider.
7 THE COURT: I read it. The statement is on page
8 3895, the direct examination of Ms. Benjamin.
9 Question: What, if anything, did Maria Gaspar
10 say to you?
11 Answer: She just came out of a meeting with
12 Bruce Gordon and Mr. Reffsin. She said they asked her to
13 do something, and she was falling apart. I don't know,
14 she was very upset and nervous, and I didn't get a chance
15 to pursue the conversation with her.
16 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, on the question before,
17 she also explains what preceded that.
18 THE COURT: The question before is not as
19 explanatory as this question. The question before says:
20 Question: Can you describe what happened in that
21 conversation?
22 Answer: She was just very, very rattled and said
23 she wanted to talk to me. She was
on the verge of tears. 24 It was kind of said in passing and someone came and she 25 was interrupted, but she had just come out of a meeting.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4819
1 She was just very distressed.
2 That is less informative and less consistent than
3 the first passage I read. The first passage adds
4 something to the mix, in that the testimony is, quote, she
5 said they asked her to do something and she was falling
6 apart, end quote. That ads something besides being on the
7 verge of tears, which is all the previous passage says.
8 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I would like to point
9 out several things about Maria Gaspar's testimony.
10 She never testified there was any meeting at
11 which both Mr. Gordon and Mr. Reffsin was present and
12 spoke to her about this at Who's Who Worldwide. Indeed,
13 her only
testimony concerning this involved Mr. Reffsin 14 being in a car, or Mr. Reffsin being in his office, and
15 supposedly faxes going back and forth. Further, your
16 Honor, Ms. Gaspar never testified she was upset about
17 this. Indeed, she minimized what she did. She said she
18 didn't believe it was a crime, she thought it was wrong
19 but didn't realize the full significance of it.
20 THE COURT: You have to go slower.
21 MR. TRABULUS: She testified she didn't believe
22 it was a crime. She thought it was wrong and didn't
23 realize the full significance of it. She never indicated 24 she was upset about it. She never indicated it distressed 25 her.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4820
1 Indeed, she testified that she voluntarily
2 informed other people about it, telling them that she
3 was -- that they were supposed
ly to be at -- that in case
4 they didn't know, they were at such and such a meeting at
5 such and such a day.
6 By the way, someone as Debra Benjamin whom she
7 specifically named as being told this, denied being told.
8 Your Honor, the whole thing is inconsistent.
9 Gaspar never testified she was upset or about any such
10 meeting, and put an entirely different tact on it.
11 Mr. White is taking the position that at the time
12 Ms. Gaspar left is significant.
13 Well, it is true that Ms. Gaspar left not long
14 after these events she testified to, if they happened.
15 But her reasons had to do with a lack of health
16 insurance. So there is no consistency here.
17 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Judge, my position is just
18 about where I am standing now. Mr. White wants it in
19 because he feels it is consistent. Mr. Trabulus wants it
20 out because he feels it is incons
istent. And I want it
21 in, your Honor, because I feel it is inconsistent with
22 Maria Gaspar's testimony.
23 THE COURT: You are not objecting to it? 24 MR. WALLENSTEIN: No, I want it in. The jury 25 heard it anyway. If he hadn't asked it, I would have
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4821
1 asked it, your Honor.
2 THE COURT: Looking at the two --
3 MR. WALLENSTEIN: That's why I said I am standing
4 in the middle.
5 MR. WHITE: I side with Mr. Wallenstein, your
6 Honor.
7 THE COURT: Looking at the two cases you
8 submitted, the prior consistent statements were much
9 closer to what the original statements were in these
10 cases.
11 MR. WHITE: True, your Honor. There are also
12 affirmative inconsistencies pointed out, pointed out in
13 those cases, and it didn't prevent it from coming in.
14 THE COURT: In the exercise of my discretion I
15 rule, number one, there was an attack as a recent
16 fabrication with regard to Maria Gaspar.
17 Number two, that second statement, she said they
18 asked her -- they asked her to do something and she was
19 falling apart. It is a close situation.
20 I will rule it in. I will overrule your
21 objection. I think that Mr. White is correct about the
22 "they asked me to do something," they asked her to do
23 something. That is circumstantial evidence that it wasn't 24 something involving a routine matter in the company, and I 25 will overrule your objection.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4822
1 You have an exception.
2 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you.
3 THE COURT: You don't need one, right?
4 MR. TRABULUS: No.
5 THE COURT: Anything else?
6 MR. SCHOER:
Yes, Judge.
7 THE COURT: Yes.
8 MR. SCHOER: On behalf of, I think, all defense
9 counsel, we are starting to run into problems with the
10 Friday schedules, Judge.
11 I know that your Honor wants to keep working, as
12 do we, because we would like to finish this trial. But
13 our Fridays -- Friday mornings is not enough for us to
14 handle our other cases. In addition -- well, for example,
15 yesterday I received a telephone call from an Assistant
16 United States Attorney in Washington, who wanted me to
17 come down this Friday at 11:00 o'clock to argue before the
18 Capital Punishment Committees. I told him I was not
19 available.
20 He said to me, well, I don't know now whether you
21 can argue on behalf of your client, because I don't know
22 the next time the committee is going to be meeting.
23 Not only that, we were supposed to have an answer
24 on this issue for Judge Trager for next Friday. 25 THE COURT: I don't understand, you are going to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4823
1 be precluded from arguing a matter in a capital case
2 because you are on trial? My goodness, that sounds very
3 unfair and unreasonable to me.
4 MR. SCHOER: It is unfair. I have to work it out
5 with Judge Trager --
6 THE COURT: If you need help from me, I will
7 certainly tell them, call them and tell them not to do
8 that.
9 MR. SCHOER: I may have to do that, Judge.
10 What I am really trying to say to your Honor is
11 it is getting very, very difficult for us to squeeze all
12 our cases in to only Friday mornings. And we have had
13 to -- while at the beginning of the trial you indicated we
14 would have Fridays off, so I put --
15 THE COURT: I don't know that I sai
d every Friday
16 would be off. I am not sure about that. I said
17 generally, I think. Maybe I did, whatever I said, I
18 said.
19 There are many courts that go five days
20 straight. You know that, don't you?
21 MR. SCHOER: I understand that, Judge. And I
22 have been on many trials where I have to go five days
23 straight, but not trials from what I can see this case 24 lasting, two months. And not when I have put in 25 affidavits of engagement, indicating I would be available
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4824
1 on Fridays. And then the case gets adjourned to a Friday,
2 and then I have to again put in another affidavit. And
3 that Judge, other judges are not inclined to like that
4 very much.
5 THE COURT: You tell them that it is my fault,
6 that I told you originally we would not be working on
7 Fridays -- if I said that as a blanket statement -- I am
8 not sure I did. However, I have changed my mind and I am
9 trying to rework my own schedule. And I think I am
10 entitled to change my mind. And I think, number two, I am
11 entitled to move this case as quickly as possible. We
12 have only three alternate jurors now. Who knows what can
13 happen?
14 Do you want to try this case again, Mr. Schoer?
15 MR. SCHOER: Absolutely not.
16 THE COURT: The best thing is to move it as fast
17 as possible. I understand it is difficult. I have been
18 in your position many, many times. But I will see what I
19 can do. But I can't promise anything, Mr. Schoer. I am
20 going to try to move the case as rapidly as I can, always
21 consistent with a fair opportunity to be heard by
22 everybody. And I think that is what you have been
23 getting. 24 Also, in fairness
to the jurors, they seem to 25 want to work on Friday also. They want to get through
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4825
1 with this case. It is taking something out of their lives
2 as well. So I intend to work on Fridays, except when I
3 can't.
4 I will let you know. This Friday we are
5 working.
6 MR. SCHOER: I understand.
7 THE COURT: I will see what happens for next
8 Friday. But I will bear that in mind, Mr. Schoer.
9 MR. SCHOER: Thank you.
10 THE COURT: In the meantime if you have any
11 difficulty with any Judge, I will be glad to call the
12 judge.
13 MR. SCHOER: I appreciate that.
14 THE COURT: Sometimes I am persuasive.
15 MR. SCHOER: I am sure you are all the time.
16 THE COURT: Not all the time.
17 MR. WALLENSTEIN: There is another aspect there,
18 and I recognize your
position and I will not belabor the
19 point, but I think the nine of us are all solo
20 practitioners. It is difficult to hold a practice
21 together with an extended trial when you work five days a
22 week and we had counted on Fridays off. So, to the extent
23 you can accommodate that I would appreciate that, 24 consistent with moving things along. 25 THE COURT: I will take it into consideration,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4826
1 Mr. Wallenstein.
2 Anything else?
3 See you tomorrow morning at 9:30.
4 (Case on trial adjourned until 9:30 o'clock a.m.,
5 Thursday, February 19, 1998.)
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23 24 25
HARR
Y RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 4827
1 I-N-D-E-X
2 W-I-T-N-E-S-S-E-S 3 PAGE LINE 4 S T E V E N W A T S T E I N................ 4596 4 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)....................... 4596 19 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)....................... 4660 8
6 M A R I L Y N L E E P R I C E........ 4719 22 DIRECT EXAMINATION............................... 4720 7 7 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4729 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4738 3 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4740 1 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4741 2 9 REDIRECT EXAMINATION............................. 4743 8 RECROSS-EXAMINATION.............................. 4746 17 10 RECROSS-EXAMINATION.............................. 4750 5 RECROSS-EXAMINATION.............................. 4752 8 11 RECROSS-EXAMINATION.............................. 4753 13
12
P H I L I P C. W E S C O T T........... 4759 4 DIRECT EXAMINATION............................... 4759 16 13 DIRECT EXAMINATION (cont'd)...................... 4767 19 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4769 18 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4778 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4783 12 15 CROSS-EXAMINATION................................ 4787 6 REDIRECT EXAMINATION............................. 4789 17 16 RECROSS-EXAMINATION.............................. 4800 3 RECROSS-EXAMINATION.............................. 4800 22 17
18 E-X-H-I-B-I-T-S
19 Government's Exhibit 32-B received in evidence... 4727 12 20 Government's Exhibit 36-E received in evidence... 4761 22 Government's Exhibit 36-D received in evidence... 4763 6 21 Government's Exhibit 36-B received in evidence... 4766 21 Government's Exhibit 36-C received in evidence... 4788 25 22
23 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
