1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X 3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, : CR 96 1016(S-1) 4 v. : U.S. Courthouse 5 Uniondale, New York BRUCE W. GORDON, WHO'S WHO 6 WORLD WIDE REGISTRY, INC., : STERLING WHO'S WHO, INC., 7 TARA GARBOSKI, ORAL FRANK : OSMAN, LAURA WEITZ, ANNETTE 8 HALEY, SCOTT MICHAELSON, : STEVE RUBIN, and MARTIN 9 REFFSIN, : TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL 10 Defendants. :February 24, 1998 11 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X 9:45 o'clock a.m.
12 BEFORE:
13 HONORABLE ARTHUR D. SPATT, U.S.D.J. and a jury 14 APPEARANCES: 15 For the Government: ZACHARY W. CARTER 16 United States Attorney One Pierrepont Plaza 17 Brooklyn, New York 11201 By: RONALD G. WHITE, ESQ. 18 CECIL SCOTT, ESQ. Assistant U.S. Attorneys 19 For the Defendants: NORMAN TRABULUS, ESQ. 20 For Bruce W. Gordon 170 Old Country Road, Suite 600 21 Mineola, New York 11501
22 EDWARD P. JENKS, ESQ. For Who's Who Worldwide 23 Registry, Inc. and Sterling Who's, Who, Inc. 24 332 Willis Avenue Mineola, New York 11501 25 (cont'd)
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5414
1 APPEARANCES (cont'd):
2 GARY SCHOER, ESQ. For Tara Garboski 3 6800 Jericho Turnpike Syosset, New York 11791 4 ALAN M. NELSON, ESQ. 5 For Oral Frank Osman 3000 Marcus Avenue 6 Lake Success, New York 11042
7 WINSTON LEE, ESQ. For Laura Weitz 8 319 Broadway New York, New York 10007 9 MARTIN GEDULDIG, ESQ. 10 For Annette Haley 400 South Oyster Bay Road 11 Hicksville, New York 11801
12 JAMES C. NEVILLE, ESQ. For Scott Michaelson 13 225 Broadway New York, New York 10007 14 THOMAS F.X. DUNN, ESQ. 15 For Steve Rubin 150 Nassau Street 16 New York, New York 10038
17 JOHN S. WALLENSTEIN, ESQ. For Martin Reffsin 18 215 Hilton Avenue Hempstead, New York 11551 19
20 Court Reporter: HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR United States District Court 21 Two Uniondale Avenue Uniondale, New York 11553 22 (516) 485-6558
23 Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript 24 produced by Computer-Assisted Transcription 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5415
1 M O R N I N G S E S S I O N
2
3 (Whereupon, the following takes place in the
4 absence of the jury.)
5 THE COURT: Where is your witness?
6 MS. SCOTT: Right next door.
7 THE COURT: Bring him in.
8 MR. LEE: I have a preliminary application.
9 THE COURT: Why did you wait for now?
10 MR. LEE: Only thing I wanted to do is to let
11 Mr. Rapapo
rt know I needed one minute with the Court, and
12 I thought that was done. I assume you were notified. I
13 apologize.
14 THE COURT: A miscommunication. It is all
15 right.
16 MR. LEE: I am asking permission to bring into
17 the courtroom my personal cassette player. The reason
18 being is when I review the tapes, I had queued portions of
19 it to my own counter, which is different from the counter
20 in court.
21 THE COURT: What is a cassette player? The thing
22 that plays these tapes?
23 MR. LEE: Yes. Mine has a counter, which I don't 24 believe queues out to exactly what the government has. 25 THE COURT: Bring it in.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5416
1 MR. LEE: Thank you.
2 The second application, with respect to the
3 testimony of Mr. Safer, I am requesting a direction to
4 your Hon
or for the government to instruct Mr. Safer not to
5 mention the prior employment of my client, Ms. Weitz, as
6 Steven Watstein's Who's Who's organization. He was also a
7 prior employee.
8 We discussed it in the context of an in limine
9 motion. And I believe the government did say that they
10 will not bring it up in their direct. But, of course, I
11 wanted to make sure to remind everyone so it doesn't get
12 blurted out.
13 THE COURT: Is Mr. Safer the next witness?
14 MR. WHITE: No. We have Mr. West --
15 THE COURT: Please advise him not to say anything
16 about that other employment.
17 MR. SCHOER: I join in that application with
18 respect to my client. I originally made the motion.
19 THE COURT: She also worked for Mr. West?
20 MR. SCHOER: Yes.
21 MR. WHITE: We didn't intend to elicit that.
22 THE COURT: Just mention it to him.
23 MR.
WHITE: I will. 24 THE COURT: By the way, don't bring up that he 25 talked to the lawyer about the case. In other words, in
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5417
1 cross-examination, don't say, well, did you discuss this
2 case -- you can say it. But if you do, he might come out
3 with something, he told me not to say something. So just
4 watch it.
5 Did I make myself clear? I don't think so.
6 MR. SCHOER: Yes, you did.
7 THE COURT: All right, let's go.
8 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the
9 courtroom.)
10 THE COURT: Good morning, members of the jury.
11 Please be seated.
12 I have to say that you made a valiant effort to
13 be here. It didn't really come off too well, but you made
14 a valiant effort. So I am thankful for that.
15 However, we delayed you a little while even after
16 you delayed a little bit. So it is even.
17 We will call it a draw.
18 You may proceed.
19 Where are we, Mr. White?
20 MR. WHITE: I began my redirect on Friday to
21 Mr. Watstein -- of Mr. Watstein.
22 THE COURT: Mr. Watstein you are still -- you
23 better readminister the oath again. I don't know how long 24 it was. When did you start testifying? 25 THE WITNESS: Tuesday, Monday?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5418
1 THE COURT: Administer the oath again then.
2
3 S T E V E N W A T S T E I N ,
4 called as a witness, having been previously
5 duly sworn, was examined and testified as
6 follows:
7
8 THE CLERK: Please be seated.
9 State your full name for the record.
10 THE WITNESS: Steven Watstein, W A T S T E I N.
11 THE COURT: You mayor proceed, Mr. White.
12
13 REDIRECT EXAMINATION (cont'd)
14 BY MR. WHITE:
15 Q Mr. Watstein, let me give you Exhibit 1379, the
16 transcript of your January 1993 meeting with Mr. Martin at
17 the Garden City Hotel.
18 Now, do you recall you were asked questions by
19 Mr. Nelson about various portions of this tape recording?
20 A In a general sense, yes.
21 Q Now, is it correct that ads were placed in
22 newspapers, and that's what Mr. Martin was responding to
23 for this job interview? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q Now, you recall Mr. Nelson asked you at that time as
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5419 Watstein-redirect/White
1 to whether your arrest was public knowledge?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q And was it at that time?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q And since it was last week, I wanted to be accurate
6 and go over one or two questions M
r. Nelson asked you.
7 Mr. Nelson asked you: Would I be correct that a
8 lot of people in the industry knew that you were arrested
9 and were in trouble for running your business
10 fraudulently?
11 Answer: That is correct.
12 MR. WHITE: I am reading from 4717 of the trial
13 transcript:
14 Question by Mr. Nelson. Certainly it appears
15 that Frank Martin was aware of this; is that right?
16 And the answer was: Yes, sir.
17 Q So, notwithstanding that Mr. Martin was aware that
18 you had been arrested, he wanted to work for you; is that
19 right?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q Now, if you can turn to page 6 of the transcript.
22 Now, if you look at the second portion that is
23 attributed to Mr. Martin on that tape -- 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q And if you look where he says, and I will read it,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPO
RTER
5420 Watstein-redirect/White
1 even though, umm, I, I make it a point that, you know, you
2 can't say anything, that you can't deviate from the
3 presentation. Because, number one, the presentation
4 basically does work. Umm, and, number two, the postal
5 authorities, and all those other bad guys out there, might
6 be listening. So it behooves you to just stay within the
7 framework of the presentation.
8 Do you see that, Mr. West?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q And what was your understanding as to Mr. Martin was
11 referring to as the postal authorities and all those other
12 bad guys out there?
13 MR. NELSON: Objection.
14 THE COURT: Sustained.
15 Q Now, do you recall in connection with that passage
16 Mr. Nelson asked you, isn't it true that Mr. Martin
17 wouldn't say stick to the script, if the script was
18 inaccurate, do you recal
l he asked you that question?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q Do you later in the conversation ask Mr. Martin if
21 the script was inaccurate?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q And tell us where you do that. 24 A You will have to refresh my memory as to which page, 25 sir?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5421 Watstein-redirect/White
1 Q Well, if you take a look at page -- look at page 9.
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q What do you ask him about the accuracy of the script?
4 A At a certain point I ask, what -- the, the
5 presentations that I have seen had a lot of puffing in it,
6 a lot of exaggerations in it. What was the typical,
7 where, where, where, where did his presentation --
8 withdraw it inconsistent with reality?
9 Q If you look at the rest of 9 and page 10 and 11, does
10 Mr. Martin tell you where he feels it is inconsistent with
11 reality?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q Now, do you recall Mr. Nelson asked you with respect
14 to this tape whether it was true that if the managers at
15 Who's Who Worldwide didn't get a commission, they,
16 therefore, had no incentive to let everyone in; do you
17 remember he asked you that?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Do you ask Mr. Martin in this conversation about the
20 percentage of people who get in?
21 A Yes. I believe that I do.
22 Q Okay.
23 If you can take a look at page 17, what do you 24 ask him? 25 MR. NELSON: Objection to the form of the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5422 Watstein-redirect/White
1 question, to the form. It is by way of a statement and
2 not a question.
3 THE COURT: Overruled.
4 A I say if -- was everybody accepted there if, if, a
5 person breathing would
buy a membership. I mean, would --
6 and then Martin responds, umm, only if it was, you know,
7 like if it was something like, umm, umm, a porno shop or
8 something, really.
9 Q And further on down, do you ask him about a specific
10 percentage being accepted?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q What do you ask him?
13 A I say, but 99 percent were accepted is what you're
14 saying?
15 And he says, yeah, I would say so. If they got
16 the money. As long as they weren't totally outright, umm,
17 just, you know, sure, yeah, laughs, yeah, laughs, really.
18 Q Okay, now, if you can go back to page 9, and the part
19 you read before, where you ask him, where was the
20 presentation inconsistent with reality, right?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Do you see that?
23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q All right. 25 And a few lines down Mr. Martin says, I suspect
HA
RRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5423 Watstein-redirect/White
1 the major flaw was telling people that they were
2 recommended by other, other, other members.
3 Do you see that?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q Now, did you make Mr. Martin give you that answer?
6 A No, sir.
7 MR. NELSON: Objection.
8 THE COURT: Overruled.
9 Q In that meeting, was there anything preventing
10 Mr. Martin from saying that, no, there was nothing
11 inconsistent with reality?
12 MR. JENKS: Objection.
13 THE COURT: First of all you are interrupting the
14 question again. I thought we were past that stage.
15 MR. NELSON: I apologize. It was one of those
16 types of questions.
17 THE COURT: I know you are a vigorous advocate.
18 You all are. But just wait until the question is over,
19 will you?
20 MR. NELSON: Yes, Judge.
21 T
HE COURT: Can I hear that?
22 (Whereupon, the court reporter reads the
23 requested material.) 24 THE COURT: What is your objection, it is a 25 simplistic type of question.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5424 Watstein-redirect/White
1 MR. NELSON: Objection to the form of the
2 question. It is a leading question being asked on
3 redirect examination.
4 THE COURT: It is not exactly leading. And so
5 you understand what leading is, and I will say it again.
6 I said it before.
7 There was nothing that prevented you from saying
8 anything other than that, was there?
9 That's a leading question.
10 He says, was there anything that prevented -- let
11 me hear what he said, maybe you are right.
12 MR. WHITE: I think you are right, your Honor.
13 THE COURT: It is reassuring to have your help.
14 Let
me hear the question.
15 (Whereupon, the court reporter reads the
16 requested material.)
17 THE COURT: That is not a leading question in my
18 view. Was there anything. That's the difference,
19 overruled.
20 THE WITNESS: No, sir, there was nothing that
21 prevented him.
22 THE COURT: As I said, it is a very simple type
23 of obvious question. But if the government wants to ask 24 obvious questions like that, let them ask it. I would 25 hope the government wouldn't do that. It is not
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5425 Watstein-redirect/White
1 necessary.
2 MR. WHITE: I am trying to avoid it, your Honor.
3 Q Now following down on page 9, Mr. Martin, the next
4 thing Mr. Martin says is: Now, there is, there is a way
5 to combat that. And he never really went out of his way
6 by, umm, umm actually ask
ing the members to, and you said
7 really recommend people?
8 THE COURT: No. It is just the reverse -- I beg
9 your pardon. I am sorry.
10 Q And on the top of page 10, and Mr. Martin says, not
11 only that, I think if you, umm, make some kind of effort
12 to do so, think of the leads that you get. I mean these
13 are highly qualified leads.
14 Let me stop there for a minute.
15 MR. NELSON: Judge, I am objecting to him
16 stopping in the middle of sentences, the rule of
17 completeness would require at least the completeness of a
18 sentence.
19 THE COURT: Not necessarily. Depending on what
20 the question is. You might be right. But what is the
21 question?
22 You will not go through all this again, we will
23 be here for three more weeks. 24 MR. WHITE: No, your Honor. There are certain 25 specific things I wish to ask.
HA
RRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5426 Watstein-redirect/White
1 THE COURT: Make it specific.
2 The Court has accommodated you by letting this
3 witness go in and out. I will not go over the whole
4 testimony because time has elapsed since then. Do you
5 follow what I am saying, Mr. White?
6 MR. WHITE: Yes. I don't intend to, your Honor.
7 THE COURT: All right. Keep it short.
8 Q Let me complete the sentence.
9 After he says highly qualified leads, he says,
10 the few times that people actually gave names of their own
11 volition, 90 percent of the time we had turned them
12 around, you know, to umm, to umm, into a membership thing.
13 Can you tell us from your experience in
14 telemarketing what that term, highly qualified lead means?
15 A Somebody who would be easy to sell.
16 Q Now, if you can turn to page 17.
17 The pas
sage we used before where Mr. Martin
18 mentioned the porno shop; do you recall that?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 MR. NELSON: Objection. Once again, it was
21 Mr. West who said short of a porno shop or murderer. I
22 will object to the characterization of the testimony this
23 way, taking it out of context in the manner he is doing. 24 It is highly improper, likely suggestive, and I object to 25 the procedure to be followed by the government.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5427 Watstein-redirect/White
1 THE COURT: First of all getting back to basics
2 again. From now on please just say "objection."
3 MR. NELSON: Yes, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Overruled.
5 Q My question is: Who is the first person in this
6 conversation to use the words porno shop, you or
7 Mr. Martin?
8 A Mr. Martin, sir.
9 THE COURT: You were
on page 17, you went back to
10 9, now you are back to 17. This is what takes time,
11 Mr. White. I don't want to go through this again. Get
12 through with 17.
13 MR. WHITE: I am sorry, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: I know you do it in your own way.
15 But, my goodness, why are we going back and forth? You
16 were at that point before. Why not complete it.
17 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I was trying to complete
18 the thought on page 9. I am sorry. I just have a couple
19 of questions on this area.
20 THE COURT: I don't interfere with lawyers'
21 technique and strategy, except when it gets repetitive and
22 unnecessary.
23 My suggestion, to you, sir, is to get one page 24 and conclude it. 25 MR. WHITE: I will stay on one page from now on,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5428 Watstein-redirect/White
1 your Hon
or.
2 Q Now, Mr. Nelson asked you about that passage and I
3 want to go over briefly what he asked you.
4 Mr. Nelson asked you on page 4706 of the
5 transcript.
6 So, I am correct that Frank Martin stated that
7 there are some forms of businesses, no matter how large
8 that Who's Who would not accept the principal of that
9 business for membership because of the nature of the
10 business that the person was engaging in; is that
11 correct?
12 And you said, yes, he made that statement.
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q And then Mr. Nelson also asked you: Am I correct in
15 stating that despite your product Frank Martin told you,
16 you know, there are people, one, that no matter how much
17 money they earn because of the nature of their business,
18 were not taking, were not bringing in the porno king, no
19 matter how much money the man makes? Did he not tell you
20 that?
21 Answer by you, yes, he did.
22 Do you remember those questions by Mr. Nelson?
23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q If you can take a look at Defendant's Exhibit Q, the 25 Who's Who Global Edition, 1993-1994, and look at page 34
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5429 Watstein-redirect/White
1 in the second paragraph -- the second column, do you see
2 an entry there for a man named Larry Flint?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Tell us who Larry Flint is.
5 MR. GEDULDIG: Objection, Judge.
6 THE COURT: Overruled.
7 A A gentleman who publishes --
8 MR. GEDULDIG: There has to be a basis for him
9 knowing who Larry Flint is.
10 THE COURT: Isn't he -- well, I don't want to say
11 anything.
12 MR. GEDULDIG: I haven't seen the movie, but
13 there could be any number of Larry Flints.
14 THE COURT: There could be
, there could be.
15 MR. WHITE: Let me set a foundation.
16 Q The Larry Flint listed in that book, does he say he
17 publishes magazines?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Okay.
20 Do you know a Larry Flint -- of a Larry Flint who
21 publishes magazines?
22 A Yes.
23 Q What kind of magazines does he publish? 24 A Largely pornographic. 25 Q Could Larry Flint accurately be categorized as a
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5430 Watstein-redirect/White
1 porno king in Mr. Nelson's words?
2 MR. NELSON: Objection.
3 THE COURT: Sustained.
4 Q Let me take that back from you.
5 If you can turn to Exhibit 1330 in the transcript
6 book, which is another tape recording you were asked about
7 on cross-examination.
8 I am sorry, 1308. I have the wrong number.
9 Now, do you see that? That's a tape of you
10 talking to Scott Michaelson, and that's the one in which
11 you took the identity of Ed Grimaldi who owned a beauty
12 salon?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And do you remember Mr. Neville asked you questions
15 about that tape?
16 A In a general sense, yes, sir.
17 Q Now, look on the third page.
18 Do you see the third entry for Scott?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q He refers to the acceptance rate there?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q And prior to that had you asked him about the
23 acceptance rate? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q Where had you done that?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5431 Watstein-redirect/White
1 A I believe the second entry is accurate. I might have
2 not asked him. He might have volunteered it.
3 Q All right.
4 Looking at page 4, the second entry for you,
5 where it says e.g.
6 A Ri
ght.
7 Q You say, quote, in other words, I am not on some kind
8 of a mailing list somewhere or something. Do you see
9 that?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Mr. Michaelson, said, no, not that I know of, no,
12 because we have to reject more people than we actually
13 accept. Do you see that?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q Now, if you look at page 7, in the middle of the
16 page, Scott says, okay, umm, do you see that entry?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q Now, after he learned that you were a beauty parlor
19 owner, what duration membership did he offer you?
20 A Two years.
21 Q Mr. Neville asked you about the fact that he offered
22 you a two-year duration, and you indicated in response to
23 his question that that was, quote, reducing the unit of 24 sale. 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5432 Watstein-redirect/
White
1 Q What did you mean by that?
2 A Many times when a prospect has limited financial
3 wherewithal, the salesperson would lower the unit of sale,
4 instead of selling five year or lifetime membership, he
5 would sell the prospect a two-year membership, in order to
6 motivate the prospect to say yes rather than saying it is
7 too much money, I won't buy it.
8 Q Mr. Neville asked you if you expected Mr. Michaelson
9 to reject you because you were a hair salon. Do you
10 remember he asked you that?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Is it the passage we read on the previous page, did
13 Mr. Michaelson say anything about rejecting people?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q What did he say?
16 A He said that they reject 5,000 out of 6,000, or
17 accept 1,000 out of 6,000.
18 Q And on the second entry on the bottom page 7 for
19 Scott, he says, we, we wouldn't take y
our money for it; do
20 you see that?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Mr. Neville pointed out to you that he said that; do
23 you remember that? 24 A That is correct. 25 Q If you review the following, the rest of the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5433 Watstein-redirect/White
1 transcript, does Mr. Michaelson try to sell you a
2 membership?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q And is he willing to take your money for it?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q If you look on page 10 and 11, does he offer you a
7 phone number?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q Okay.
10 Now, if you look at Exhibit 1325.
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Now, that's a tape recording that Mr. Geduldig asked
13 you about that you have with Annette Haley; is that right?
14 A That's correct, sir.
15 Q Now, if you look at 5, about two-thirds of the way
16 down,
Annette says at least 6,000 apply every single
17 month.
18 You say, six, oh, I see.
19 Annette, but we don't accept everybody.
20 Do you see that?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Now, I want to look at the question you asked on the
23 top of page 6. You say, no, my question is, how, half the 24 people get rejected? A third? 25 Now, if half or a third were rejected, how many
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5434 Watstein-redirect/White
1 would be accepted?
2 A The inverse, obviously a half or two-thirds.
3 Q So 50 to 60 to 70 percent?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q And Annette's response is I would say we accept about
6 5,000 -- five percent; do you see that?
7 A Yes, sir, 5 percent, yes.
8 Q And is it correct that she picks the lower,
9 therefore, more desirable figure than what you said in the
10 question?
11 A That is correct, sir.
12 Q After that you said, and Mr. Geduldig asked you about
13 it, so I am not going to find a delicatessen owner in this
14 thing?
15 Annette responds, no.
16 Do you remember Mr. Geduldig asked you about the
17 Stage Deli in New York, and Ben's Deli here on Long
18 Island?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q Now, had you made any other calls to Who's Who
21 Worldwide posing as a delicatessen owner?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q At the risk of flipping around, if you can look back 24 at Exhibit 1306. 25 THE COURT: That is definitely a risk.
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5435 Watstein-redirect/White
1 MR. WHITE: I concede that.
2 Q Do you see Exhibit 1306?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q And can you tell us what the date you recorded 1306
5 is?
6 A If I am reading it properly, O
ctober 23rd, 1994.
7 Q When is it in comparison to when you spoke to Annette
8 Haley on tape 1325 -- it is before it, do you pose as a
9 deli owner?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 MR. GEDULDIG: For clarification purposes, can we
12 know the participants of that conversation?
13 MR. WHITE: Yes. Mr. West and Jill Barnes.
14 MR. GEDULDIG: I will object to that. There was
15 no direct examination that I made of this man regarding
16 Jill Barnes. I examined him purely on conversations he
17 had with my client. To impose what Jill Barnes said to
18 Mr. Watstein on my client --
19 THE COURT: Not necessarily, you went into the
20 question of this delicatessen ownership. And that is
21 apparently what subject Mr. White is on, which is why he
22 is flip flopping again.
23 MR. GEDULDIG: In that case I will ask Mr. White 24 to read the entire question and answer, no, that he
25 referred to. I believe it is misleading.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5436 Watstein-redirect/White
1 THE COURT: Keep your voice up.
2 MR. GEDULDIG: I believe it is misleading. There
3 is a short paragraph there. He read one word, no.
4 THE COURT: What page on 1325-A, is it?
5 MR. GEDULDIG: Page 6, Exhibit 1325-A, about
6 halfway down to paper, Mr. White read, no, that's it.
7 That's all he read. There is more to it all dealing with
8 the list of the delicatessen owners.
9 THE COURT: I am not following you,
10 Mr. Geduldig. On page 6 you say Mr. White didn't state
11 the full question and answer?
12 MR. GEDULDIG: That's correct.
13 Q Which one are you referring to?
14 MR. GEDULDIG: Referring to about halfway down
15 the page, Judge, Mr. White read, Annette says no.
16 The introduction sentence i
s a few attributions
17 on top of it. So, I am not going to find a delicatessen
18 owner in this thing.
19 If you go down, go down about three or four
20 attributions, there is a whole paragraph there regarding
21 exactly what Mr. Watstein said about finding a
22 delicatessen owner.
23 THE COURT: I am afraid you will have to bring 24 that up in recross, if you wish to do so. This is now 25 redirect, and counsel is properly following the rules in
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5437 Watstein-redirect/White
1 my opinion.
2 Go ahead.
3 Q Now, looking at 1306 --
4 THE COURT: Except for the flip-flopping, of
5 course.
6 Q 1306, at the bottom, how many delicatessens do you
7 say you own?
8 A One.
9 Q And what do you say your educationally background is?
10 A It --
11 Q At the bott
om of page 3?
12 A Junior in high school.
13 Q At the top of page 4, how many years has your deli
14 been open?
15 A I say, umm, almost two.
16 Q Were you offered a membership?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 MR. LEE: Objection, your Honor, limiting
19 instruction.
20 THE COURT: Limiting instruction as to what?
21 MR. LEE: As to the admissibility of this person,
22 Ms. Barnes.
23 THE COURT: This is being offered for two 24 reasons. One, in redirect examination to explain the 25 situation -- allegedly explain the situation as to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5438 Watstein-redirect/White
1 delicatessen owners, and secondly as far as Jill Barnes is
2 concerned, that is only against the defendant Who's Who
3 Worldwide. That's correct.
4 Very well.
5 Is that correct, Mr. White?
6 MR. WHITE:
Yes, your Honor.
7 Q Now, the last tape I want to look at is
8 Exhibit 1330. Do you have that in front of you?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q And if you look at the bottom of page 1 and page 2,
11 do you indicate -- I am sorry, let me back up.
12 This is a conversation with Steve Walden; is that
13 correct?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q Now, do you indicate there in that conversation that
16 you have had a prior conversation with Steve Walden?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q Do you remember Mr. Jenks asked you if it is true
19 that you had had such a conversation? And the answer is
20 no; is that right?
21 A That is correct.
22 Q Now, if you look on page 2 at the top, as Mr. Jenks
23 pointed out, you had not spoken to him before. And 24 Mr. Walden answers -- you ask him, do you recall the 25 conversation?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5439 Watstein-redirect/White
1 He answers, I definitely do, yes.
2 Do you see that?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q You say, oh, good, good, good.
5 Walden, it's not common that I get people who are
6 not multibillionaires, CEOs, so when I get a real life
7 person who can benefit of course it stands out in my mind.
8 Do you see that?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q And look at page 9, and I want to ask you about a
11 statement that Mr. Jenks asked you about, where you say in
12 the middle of the page, well, I really don't have any
13 expert -- to be honest with you, honestly, I don't want to
14 mislead the people because I just, I just getting the
15 promotion as of January 1.
16 Do you see that?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q And again, Mr. Jenks asked you whether you had really
19 gotten a promotion; is that right?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q And
you had?
22 A That's right.
23 Q And Mr. Walden's response is, hey, fake it 'til you 24 make it, right? 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5440 Watstein-redirect/White
1 THE COURT: The transcript I have says fake it
2 'til you make.
3 MR. WHITE: I am sorry, I added the last word. I
4 am sorry.
5 Q Now, you can put away the book of transcripts.
6 Now, Mr. West, you were asked a lot of questions
7 on cross-examination last week regarding whether or not
8 your company intentionally did not deliver the products it
9 promised to its customers. Do you recall all that?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And can you tell us the sequence of events that led
12 to the non-delivery of the products of your company?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 In 1988 we had contracted out the data entry and
15 computerization pro
cess to an outside vendor located in
16 Connecticut. And in general that went rather smoothly,
17 and that position was administered -- delivered on a
18 timely basis as was all the related products.
19 In 1989 we chose to bring that function in-house
20 and hired our own in-house computer expert. I gave that
21 gentleman a check for $42,000 to set up an internal
22 computer facility. And, unfortunately, he turned out to
23 have severe emotional and alcoholic problems. And the 24 computer system failed. A great deal of data was lost, 25 probably tens of thousands, maybe 10,000 names in total,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5441 Watstein-redirect/White
1 and we found ourselves not able to deliver a great number
2 of books and facts not knowing who it was to.
3 We retained a number of consultants, one was
4 Stafford & Consultant
s, a college professor in Long Island
5 who had a computer outfit and we always were plagued as to
6 our computer system. Eventually we utilized our own
8 or & Associates system, and we had a great number of
9 complaints.
10 Q Did you intentionally not deliver the products that
11 customers purchased from your company?
12 A No, sir.
13 Q If you can take a look at Defendant's Exhibit AK,
14 which is in evidence, that's the information that -- the
15 charges to which you pled guilty; is that correct?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q Did you plead guilty to intentional non-delivery of
18 product as mentioned in that information?
19 A No, sir.
20 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: What ground?
22 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, it is asking for a
23 characterization. Intentional non-delivery of pro
duct is 24 not a crime as such. You have an information alleging 25 criminal conduct, and it encompasses a variety of
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5442 Watstein-redirect/White
1 different acts, not all set forth there necessarily. It
2 is a misleading question.
3 THE COURT: There is no crime entitled
4 "intentionally non-delivery of Who's Who directories," is
5 there?
6 MR. WHITE: No, your Honor, but it is not set
7 forwards in the information.
8 THE COURT: What did you plead guilty to?
9 THE WITNESS: A number of items, your Honor,
10 indicating that people were nominated, when in fact they
11 were not; indicating that we in fact had a selection
12 committee --
13 THE COURT: You pled guilty to mail fraud?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
15 THE COURT: What else?
16 THE WITNESS: Income tax evasion
, and the filing
17 of an improper not for profit permit with the post office,
18 and the filing of improper receipts on insurance claims.
19 THE COURT: All right.
20 I think the asking of that question is -- I am
21 going to sustain the objection.
22 Q Now, you were asked questions on cross-examination
23 regarding the home you were building on Long Island; do 24 you remember that? 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5443 Watstein-redirect/White
1 Q Were you involved in setting that fire?
2 A Absolutely not.
3 Q You were asked whether or not you received insurance
4 proceeds from that. Did you?
5 A No, sir.
6 Q Who did?
7 A The U.S. Government.
8 Q How did that happen?
9 A We forwarded the proceeds as part of the agreement
10 with the U.S. Government.
11 Q Did yo
u benefit in any way by the fire at your home?
12 A No, sir.
13 Q You were asked questions about the charge to which
14 you pled guilty involving the false statement to the
15 Postal Service?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q And that involved some sort of non-profit
18 corporation?
19 A That is correct, sir.
20 Q Can you explain what you did in connection with that
21 charge.
22 A Yes, sir. I created an entity called American Sales
23 and Marketing Institute. We filed a not for profit 24 application in New York State, and did not complete all of 25 the backup paperwork. We were subsequently granted a not
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5444 Watstein-redirect/White
1 for profit status by the post office. One of our
2 competitors complained about that status. There was a
3 legal matter. It was ruled that we in fact
were not
4 entitled to that not for profit status, and I pled guilty
5 to filing an improper not for profit application.
6 Q You were asked a lot of questions on
7 cross-examination as to whether or not your company gave
8 refunds; do you recall that?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q And in light of the sequence of events you described
11 before with the computer problem, can you explain when
12 your company refused to give refunds?
13 A We actually never refused in total to give refunds,
14 Mr. White. But the sequence of events is that in 1988 and
15 into early 1989, there were very few refund requests. But
16 all those refund requests were honored substantially
17 immediately.
18 As we experienced the computer failure in 1989,
19 we experienced huge losses which constrained our cash
20 flow, and I took a lot of steps, none of which appropriate
21 to delay and re
fuse refund.
22 Q You were asked on cross-examination regarding an
23 allegation that you had not provided health insurance to 24 your employee; do you recall that? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5445 Watstein-redirect/White
1 Q Did you provide health insurance for your employees?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q And was there a time when that insurance was no
4 longer in effect?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Can you tell us what happened?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 To the best of my knowledge what happened was a
9 payment was not made on a timely basis to Blue Cross,
10 although the policy clearly was in effect. I did not
11 learn of that until I received a letter from Blue Cross
12 indicating that they would terminate the policy.
13 We immediately sent a messenger into the city
14 with a check for the alleged open premium
deficit. They
15 refused to accept that check, and accordingly terminated
16 the insurance policy.
17 We offered to purchase insurance policies for any
18 employees who wanted those policies who were so
19 disadvantaged.
20 Q Mr. Neville asked you on cross-examination regarding
21 a lawsuit brought by Marquis Who's Who; do you remember
22 that?
23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q Did Marquis Who's Who bring a lawsuit against you and 25 your company?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5446 Watstein-redirect/White
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q And you indicated to -- let me back up.
3 Were you aware that they also brought a lawsuit
4 against Who's Who Worldwide?
5 A Eventually, yes, sir.
6 Q Mr. Neville asked you about whether you were present
7 in court or not, for proceedings in connection with
8 that -- with lit
igation involving Marquis, and you said,
9 yes.
10 To which litigation were you referring?
11 A The litigation of Marquis against Who's Who in U.S.
12 executives.
13 Q Your company?
14 A That's correct, sir.
15 Q You were asked by Mr. Jenks regarding whether or not
16 the government could violate your probation; do you
17 remember that?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Tell us what is your understanding as to who the
20 ultimate decision as to whether or not you violated your
21 probation?
22 A I am not an attorney, Mr. White. But my
23 understanding is that the probation department would 24 initiate that, and it would be approved by Judge Mishler. 25 Q And where is your probation officer located?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5447 Watstein-redirect/White
1 A In Long Island.
2 Q You said on cro
ss-examination in response to
3 questions what you knew about the company when you were
4 making these phone calls, that you received letters from
5 Who's Who Worldwide; is that right?
6 A That is correct, sir.
7 Q Let me show you Government's Exhibit 1601 through
8 1606 for Identification.
9 Take a look at those, Mr. West and tell us what
10 those are.
11 (Handed to the witness.)
12 A There are six separate letters from Who's Who and its
13 related companies -- Who's Who Worldwide and Sterling, I
14 should say. Nominating me or offering me potential
15 inclusion in their directories and membership.
16 MR. WHITE: Let me provide copies to defense
17 counsel now, but the government offers 1601 through 1606.
18 (Documents handed to defense counsel.)
19 MR. WHITE: I have a copy for the Court as well,
20 your Honor.
21 (Handed to the Court.)
22 THE COURT: Any objection?
23 MR. TRABULUS: May I see the originals, please, 24 your Honor? 25 THE COURT: Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5448 Watstein-redirect/White
1 (Documents handed to Mr. Trabulus.)
2 MR. TRABULUS: May I have a voir dire?
3 THE COURT: Yes.
4
5 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. TRABULUS:
7 Q Mr. Watstein, on the dates of all of these letters,
8 except the first one --
9 A Pardon me, I need a copy. You have the originals.
10 Q I have the originals here. I will walk up to you to
11 show you.
12 A Thank you, sir.
13 Q Mr. West, on all but the first one of these dates you
14 were cooperating with the government; is that correct?
15 Even on the first one you were; is that correct?
16 A Yes, sir, that is correct.
17 Q So, at the time of the dates of
each of these letters
18 you were cooperating; is that correct?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q And when these letters came did you immediately turn
21 them over to the government, or to Mr. Biegelman or
22 Mr. Leonard?
23 A Reasonably promptly; yes. 24 Q Did you turn over the envelopes in which they came? 25 A I don't have a recollection of that, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5449 Watstein-redirect/White
1 Q The envelopes would have the postmark, sir; is that
2 correct?
3 A I understand that.
4 Q You understood, did you not, that this was supposedly
5 an investigation of mail fraud; is that correct?
6 A Yes, sir, that's correct.
7 Q If there was any type of fraud that was allegedly to
8 be proven involving these letters being sent to you, it
9 would require proof that it was mailed; is that correct?
10 A I don't have a direct understanding of that, no.
11 Q Did any cards come with this?
12 A I don't have a recollection, sir, no. I assume they
13 did.
14 Q Did you turn those over to the government?
15 A I am not sure, sir.
16 Q Did Mr. Biegelman tell you that when the records of
17 Who's Who Worldwide and Sterling were seized, copies of
18 blank stationery were seized?
19 A No, he didn't, sir.
20 Q Were any of those shown to you at any point in time?
21 A No, sir.
22 Q Were any of those given to you at any point in time?
23 A No, sir. 24 Q Now, some of these are not originals, they appear to 25 be photocopies; is that correct, sir?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5450 Watstein-redirect/White
1 A Some are originals and some are photocopies? I can't
2 quite tell, sir.
3 Q Do you have th
e originals of those which appear to be
4 photocopies?
5 A No, sir.
6 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you.
7 Objection, I believe not a proper foundation was
8 made with regard to some of the questions were responded
9 to.
10 THE COURT: Sustained.
11 MR. WHITE: What ground, your Honor?
12 THE COURT: Insufficient foundation.
13 On what theory are you offering this?
14 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, at a minimum they are
15 corporate admissions, letters from Who's Who and Sterling
16 Who's Who. Mr. West has identified them just like every
17 other witness identified they received such letters from
18 the company. And all those other letters were admitted.
19 THE COURT: Did you personally -- do you remember
20 receiving these letters, Mr. Watstein?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
22 THE COURT: Do you want to come, up counsel.
23 MR. TRABULUS: Sure. 24
25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5451 Watstein-redirect/White
1 (Whereupon, at this time the following took place
2 at the sidebar.)
3 THE COURT: Why aren't they admissions by the
4 corporation?
5 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, if I can add another
6 ground for the objection. I guess they can be admissions
7 if they are shown as coming from the corporation.
8 THE COURT: There is a prima facie showing. This
9 witness says he received them.
10 MR. TRABULUS: I would like to add another point.
11 These were never provided to us in discovery.
12 They were never provided. This was not something which
13 was first raised on the direct where we opened the door to
14 it. I believe there was testimony by Mr. Watstein --
15 excuse me, it is not a situation where we first raised
16 this on the cross of Mr. Watstein.
It was certainly
17 something which I believe was encompassed by his direct
18 examination, receipt of them, the letter from Who's Who,
19 and I think that it was elicited by the government, he was
20 shown a letter from Cathy Ross by Biegelman, and there was
21 something else to him having received letters. Nor was
22 that ever attacked by the defense to establish that he
23 hadn't received the letter. This is something that should 24 have been disclosed to us a long while ago. It was saved 25 for redirect. On that basis alone I believe it should be
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5452 Watstein-redirect/White
1 excluded.
2 MR. SCHOER: I didn't hear everything that
3 Mr. Trabulus said, but I don't believe that this was ever
4 provided to us in any discovery.
5 THE COURT: That's what Mr. Trabulus just said.
6 MR. SCHOE
R: I am sorry.
7 THE COURT: What about that, Mr. White?
8 MR. WHITE: It was, your Honor. There was a
9 large volume of letters. I know that I specifically
10 included in one of my discovery letters, and I can dig it
11 out if I have to, that the government had solicitation
12 letters and mailing files that were available for
13 discovery. If you want I will go out and get the letter
14 and show you exactly what date I made it available to
15 them.
16 Not only that, but some of the letters are
17 actually referred to in the complaint of March of 1995.
18 Inspector Biegelman set forth a whole series mailings,
19 your Honor it is in the complaint.
20 THE COURT: The complaint in this case?
21 MR. WHITE: Yes.
22 THE COURT: Why are you prejudiced by not
23 specifically having been given these letters? Let's 24 assume it was mentioned in the broad, major di
sclosure by 25 the government. But what prejudice is there? Where have
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5453 Watstein-redirect/White
1 you been prevented from defending yourself because they
2 were brought out on redirect examination?
3 MR. TRABULUS: Well --
4 THE COURT: They should have been brought out on
5 direct, I admit that. You are right.
6 MR. NELSON: Your Honor, the prejudice that I
7 engender on behalf of Mr. Martin specifically is that in
8 the cross-examination, my cross-examination, I attempted
9 to establish from Mr. West that he did not have copies of
10 the sales presentations, he had never seen them prior to
11 the interviews being conducted in the room; that he had
12 never seen the solicitation letters prior to those
13 interviews being conducted. In a sense he was leading my
14 client on by saying th
ere was puffing and exaggerations in
15 something he had not seen before. Now the government is
16 presenting evidence that he had seen the statements
17 sometime previously.
18 Certainly, I was not aware of it previously and I
19 might not have tailored my cross-examination in that
20 manner.
21 It might be we were provided this in the
22 literally of tens of thousands documents provided. We
23 were not told it was an exhibit to be used. It was never 24 raised as an exhibit, and my cross-examination was 25 detailed and specific, and I would have prepared it in a
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5454 Watstein-redirect/White
1 manner knowing that they existed.
2 THE COURT: That is it like a two-edged sword,
3 Mr. Nelson. On the one hand, the same as Tevya in Fiddler
4 on the Roof. You are right, and they are right.
5 Everybody is right. You brought it out on cross that he
6 didn't receive solicitation letters, and the government
7 comes back and shows he did.
8 MR. NELSON: Without the knowledge that the
9 government was in possession of such letters.
10 THE COURT: General constructive knowledge, not
11 actual.
12 MR. NELSON: I would not agree with that, Judge.
13 THE COURT: If he is going to show me that a
14 letter was sent to you including all of this, then you
15 have constructive knowledge.
16 MR. SCHOER: Judge, can I speak to that issue,
17 both manners which Mr. White raised.
18 I believe he did write us a general letter saying
19 here is all the material, the discovery is available to
20 you, and he pointed us to the post office into a room.
21 I don't believe that these letters were in that
22 room. My gut is that they were in the U.S. Attorney's
23
Office in a file somewhere. 24 Secondly, with respect to the complaint, the one 25 letter that is referred to in the complaint from what I
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5455 Watstein-redirect/White
1 can see based on my notes, there is a letter -- the
2 complaint refers to a letter dated January 9th, 1995, to a
3 Steve Johnson. And it says that that is a fictitious
4 name.
5 MR. WHITE: Right.
6 MR. SCHOER: How do we know, how are we supposed
7 to know it has to do with Mr. West.
8 MR. TRABULUS: I went through the post office
9 facilities and I didn't see any solicitation letters
10 there.
11 THE COURT: I will overrule the objection. I
12 don't think it is prejudice in the legal sense in any
13 way. And I don't believe your cross-examination at the
14 time showed any kind of weakness or exposed your client i
n
15 any way. You can now come back and say I never got these
16 letters before, etcetera, etcetera. You are showing it to
17 us for the first time. When did you give the letters to
18 Mr. White? When did he talk to you about this? We were
19 never shown this before. You can bring all of that out on
20 recross-examination. I think this is substantive evidence
21 that I will not preclude because you were given general
22 notice of all these records.
23 It is true that it is a major job, but there are 24 ten of you. Some of you were extremely diligent -- you 25 are all diligent. But some were extra diligent.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5456 Watstein-redirect/White
1 Mr. Schoer probably spent days going through these records
2 if I know Mr. Schoer. Mr. Trabulus spent weeks going
3 through these records.
4 MR. NELSON:
As did I, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: I don't want to leave you out,
6 Mr. Nelson. I am not aware of your propensities as I am
7 of Mr. Schoer.
8 You notice that I skipped Mr. Jenks. That's not
9 his forte, burrowing through records.
10 MR. JENKS: That's correct.
11 MR. WALLENSTEIN: You forgot me, I never looked.
12 MR. GEDULDIG: Can I request there be a limiting
13 charge on these documents, that they only apply to the
14 corporations?
15 THE COURT: Yes.
16 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you.
17
18 (Whereupon, at this time the following takes
19 place in open court.)
20 THE COURT: I have reversed my ruling and
21 overruling the objections. I am allowing the documents in
22 evidence, with the limiting instruction that they are only
23 admissible and offered against the corporation -- the 24 corporations. 25 Let's see, one, two, three, fo
ur, five -- four of
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5457 Watstein-redirect/White
1 them are from Who's Who Worldwide, and two are from
2 Sterling Who's Who.
3 So that's Government's Exhibits 1601 through 1606
4 in evidence.
5 (Government's Exhibit 1601 received in evidence.)
6 (Government's Exhibit 1602 received in evidence.)
7 (Government's Exhibit 1603 received in evidence.)
8 (Government's Exhibit 1604 received in evidence.)
9 (Government's Exhibit 1605 received in evidence.)
10 (Government's Exhibit 1606 received in evidence.)
11
12 REDIRECT EXAMINATION (cont'd)
13 BY MR. WHITE:
14 Q 1601 through 1606, look through the -- page through
15 and look through the letters. Were those sent to you
16 before or after you were arrested?
17 A They are all after, sir.
18 Q And when is the first one?
19 A The first one is dated December 28, 1992.
20 Q 1602, what is the date of that?
21 A March 31st, 1994.
22 Q And 1603?
23 A August 8th, 1994. 24 Q And 1604? 25 A November 2nd, 1994.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5458 Watstein-redirect/White
1 Q And 1605?
2 A December 5, 1994.
3 Q And with the exception of the first one, 1601, were
4 the remaining ones after you had also pled guilty?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q So, you got these letters when you were a convicted
7 felon?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q Now, look at Exhibit 1606.
10 First of all, tell us the dates of that one?
11 A January 9, 1995.
12 Q What company is sending you the letter?
13 A Sterling Who's Who.
14 Q Now, who is it addressed to?
15 A Steve Johnson.
16 Q What is the address?
17 A 355 Fern,
F E R N, Drive, Fort Lauderdale, Florida.
18 Q Who lives that 355 Fern Drive?
19 A I did at that time, sir.
20 Q Can you tell us who Steve Johnson is?
21 A It is a code name I use when subscribing to
22 magazines, so when I receive renewal notices, I knew what
23 the cause was. 24 Q Does Steve Johnson exist at all? 25 A No, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5459 Watstein-redirect/White
1 Q Now, you were asked last week how you got to court
2 last week. Do you remember that?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q What kind of car were you driving in?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q What kind of car was it?
7 A A limousine, sir.
8 Q And you were asked whether or not you paid for the
9 limousine. Do you remember that?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q Did you?
12 A No, sir.
13 Q Tell us how it was that you were d
riving in a
14 limousine?
15 A I exchanged the creation of the business plan in
16 return for limousine services.
17 Q And why was it that you took limousine services than
18 payment in money?
19 A The individual had no money to make payment.
20 Q So, he paid you in kind?
21 A That is correct, sir.
22 Q You were asked a lot of questions about the selection
23 committee that was mentioned in the letters that you sent 24 out? 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5460 Watstein-redirect/White
1 Q Can you explain to us whether there was really a
2 committee and how it worked?
3 A The names listed on the stationery were in the --
4 were in the large business acquaintances and friends of
5 mine. And although I believed that I asked my secretary
6 to contact these individuals and tell them
they were on a
7 selection committee, the majority were not contacted by my
8 secretary, and in fact, they had no real role as a
9 practical matter in the selection, in any event.
10 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I have no further
11 questions.
12 THE COURT: Recross-examination.
13 MR. TRABULUS: Sure.
14 THE COURT: We will recess a little later today
15 because we started later.
16 MR. TRABULUS: Sure. No problem.
17
18 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
19 BY MR. TRABULUS:
20 Q Mr. West, I think you just mentioned -- withdrawn.
21 You mentioned you had a secretary; is that
22 correct?
23 A As it relates to Who's Who in U.S. Executives? 24 Q Yes. 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5461 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 Q And had that secretary previously worked for you at
2 the othe
r company, the one also at Cutter Mill Road?
3 A I believe so.
4 Q She worked for you for a long time?
5 A I believe so.
6 Q She was a good secretary?
7 A No, sir.
8 Q You kept her for a few years; is that right?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q She would have had no reason not to contact people
11 you asked her to contact; is that right?
12 A Not by intention, no, sir.
13 Q And you mentioned that the government got the
14 proceeds of the insurance on the Mill Neck property that
15 had burned down; is that right?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q And you had been under investigation for a period of
18 time concerning that time for that fire?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q You were not under investigation for a period of
21 time?
22 A Not to the best of my knowledge.
23 Q You told us earlier you were under investigation? 24 A Not to my knowledge, sir.
25 Q Were you questioned by the police about it?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5462 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 A Yes, I was questioned, yes.
2 Q I believe you indicated on your direct examination
3 you had taken a lie detector test?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q Not required by the investigation?
6 A I voluntarily did that.
7 Q Were you there a point in time there was a federal
8 investigation about that?
9 A Not to my knowledge.
10 Q When you talked to Inspector Biegelman you might have
11 discussed the fire?
12 A We might have discussed it, there was no
13 investigation to my knowledge.
14 Q Inspector Leonard?
15 A Not to my knowledge.
16 Q Did there seem to be less law enforcement activity
17 with regard to the fire after you started cooperating?
18 A No, sir.
19 Q And you were told
-- you said you didn't benefit at
20 all by that million dollars that was paid by the insurance
21 company; is that correct?
22 A That is correct, sir.
23 Q You did benefit in the sense that it was paid to the 24 U.S. government; is that correct? 25 A You might say that philosophically, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5463 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 Q It is not philosophically, it was part of your
2 sentence, wasn't it?
3 A It didn't matter how much money was being turned
4 over, sir.
5 Q The government was looking for something out of you;
6 is that correct?
7 A I can't respond with a yes or no, sir.
8 Q They asked you to turn over some money in your son's
9 account from what you tell us was an inheritance; is that
10 correct?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And did you tell the government that th
at money had
13 nothing to do with the crime that you committed?
14 A We made such an argument, sir.
15 Q They said we want it anyway?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q They had taken money from your son who had not done
18 anything wrong?
19 A I can't respond with a yes or no.
20 Q That money came from one of his grandparents?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Who passed away?
23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q And they took that away from him? 25 A I can't respond fully with a yes or no.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5464 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 Q You helped -- allowed them to take it away?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q Did you consult with your lawyers if they had the
4 power to --
5 THE COURT: You have to slow down?
6 A You are picking up ahead of steam again,
7 Mr. Trabulus.
8 Q Was there a trustee to that mo
ney?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q Who was that trustee?
11 A My wife.
12 Q Did she consult an attorney as to whether it was the
13 proper use of the money?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q The attorney told her she could take the money which
16 was her sons, left to the son by a grandparent and utilize
17 it to help buy your way out of jail; is that right?
18 A I can't respond with a yes or no, sir.
19 Q That book over there in front of you, it has a bunch
20 of transcripts in it?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q And there were some transcripts that you were not
23 involved in? 24 A I haven't really studied the book. 25 Q Take a look in it, through it.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5465 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 A Yes, sir.
2 THE COURT: Were there some he was not involved
3 in?
4 MR. TRABULUS: Yes
, sir.
5 THE COURT: We will take your word for it.
6 MR. TRABULUS: I want him to look through it for
7 other things, your Honor.
8 THE COURT: We will not have him sit here and
9 look through things that are so.
10 Q Trying to cut it short, you reviewed some transcripts
11 before testifying; is that correct?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q Between the date of your last testimony and today
14 have you reviewed any transcripts?
15 A No.
16 Q You did review transcripts before coming up here; is
17 that correct?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Now, the transcripts that you reviewed were of tapes
20 you yourself were involved in?
21 A That is correct, sir.
22 Q And some of those were only partial transcripts?
23 A No, sir. 24 Q You reviewed complete transcripts of each of the 61? 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COU
RT REPORTER
5466 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 Q When White asked you, did he not some questions
2 earlier -- actually, last week, to the effect of despite
3 all the facts that all defense counsel asked you
4 concerning the bad things you did, it doesn't change what
5 is on the tapes; do you recall that?
6 A I recall the question, yes, sir.
7 Q It was Mr. White who first asked you in this
8 proceeding concerning various crimes that you pled guilty
9 to and the actors that you did; is that correct?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q And you met with Mr. White before you first
12 testified; is that correct?
13 A That is correct, sir.
14 Q And did you tell him in that conversation that no
15 matter what I might have done, it doesn't change what is
16 on the tapes?
17 A No, sir.
18 Q Did he tell you that at that point?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q Did he ask you why he was even going to be asking you
21 relating to these crimes about another company, not even
22 Who's Who, when you had the tapes?
23 A No, sir. 24 Q You never discussed with him why he chose to bring 25 that out; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5467 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 A That's correct.
2 Q Now, when Mr. White began his redirect examination,
3 the last day you testified on a day earlier today, he
4 asked you about questions I had asked you, questions where
5 I had asked you whether or not at the time you did certain
6 things, you did them with intent to defraud; do you recall
7 that?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q And do you recall being asked these questions and
10 giving these answers in response to questions to
11 Mr. White, beginning at page 5260 -- withdrawn, forget
it.
12 You said basically you didn't have the technical
13 understanding at the time these things were happening, you
14 didn't have a technical understanding that the things were
15 illegal; is that correct?
16 A In substance, yes.
17 Q When I asked you with respect to intent to defraud, I
18 didn't ask about a legal technicality?
19 A No, not accurate what you are saying.
20 Q Didn't I ask you if you were intending to defraud the
21 legal --
22 A I thought it was a technical legal question.
23 Q That's what you understood? 24 A That's what I understood your phrase means. 25 Q When I asked you whether or not you would have picked
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5468 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 out law enforcement people, and picked out government
2 workers and practicing attorneys if you had been acting
3 with intent to defraud them, you thought I was just
4 questioning you concerning a legal technicality, whether
5 or not you technically knew at the time what intent to
6 defraud was; is that correct?
7 A That was my understanding of the question, sir.
8 Q And you told Mr. White on redirect, didn't you, that
9 at the time you did these things, and when I say these
10 things I mean when you first began your businesses, not
11 when you first started operating it the way you did, but
12 when you first planned it, first planned to send letters
13 to people advising them they were nominated, and you said
14 you were intending to publish a directory and do things
15 right and do things in good faith, you said when you first
16 did that you told Mr. White that you believed it was
17 misleading?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And dishonest?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And wrong?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Now it is your testimony that you selected a group of 24 law enforcement people to do something misleading to? 25 A I can't respond yes or no to that question.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5469 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 Q It is your testimony that you picked a group of law
2 enforcement people to do something which you knew was
3 dishonest; is that correct?
4 A I can't respond with a yes or no to that question,
5 sir.
6 Q And it is your testimony that you picked a group of
7 law enforcement people to do something that you knew at
8 that time was wrong; is that your testimony?
9 A I can't respond with a yes more no, sir.
10 Q Didn't you feel when you said nomination to tease
11 people was no more than puffing or hype and not illegal?
12 A No, sir.
13 Q Isn't it a fact if you felt it w
as wrong, dishonest,
14 misleading, illegal, intent to defraud, the last people
15 you would have selected to do this to would have been
16 attorneys, law enforcement people, and government people,
17 yes or no, sir?
18 A I cannot respond to a yes or no to that question,
19 sir.
20 Q You told me, did you not, when I was cross-examining
21 you before, when you start out you had good objectives; do
22 you recall that?
23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q And you said you were doing this at that time, you 25 felt you were doing it in good faith; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5470 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 A Time frame is 1987, 1988, yes, sir.
2 Q And that's before you say you started failing to
3 deliver, and failing to supply the things which you had
4 promised the people; is that correct?
5 A In a
time sequence, your question is correct, sir.
6 Q Now, before we start to get to the non-delivery, to
7 that business, let me ask you, in terms of what the tapes
8 say, in one of the tapes you pose as your father-in-law,
9 Mr. Weinman?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q And Mr. Weinman was an accountant; is that right?
12 A On the tape, sir.
13 Q And he is the only one on the tape --
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q He is the only one that you paid for?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q He is the only one of these 61 nonexistent people
18 that you posed as, that you know as you sit here today
19 would have been actually accepted into Who's Who
20 Worldwide; is that correct?
21 A I cannot respond to that question with a yes or no.
22 Q In each of the other 61's that you did, you never
23 took it beyond the point that -- at which you hung up on 24 the salesperson, or the salesperson h
ung up on you -- I 25 don't mean an unfriendly sense of hanging up -- but you
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5471 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 left it I have to either get approval from my wife, or I
2 have to get my boss to authorize the use of a company
3 credit card, you never took it beyond that except for
4 Mr. Weinman; is that correct?
5 A No, not accurate.
6 Q There was one other one where you used a nonexistent
7 credit card?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q Besides those two you never took it beyond that?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q And with the non-existent credit card and once they
12 checked out the credit card to find out it was
13 nonexistent, it wouldn't have gone to any level of
14 non-review with respect to that?
15 A I cannot comment on that.
16 THE COURT: You better slow down, Mr. Trabulus.
17 Q
When you used the nonexistent credit card you didn't
18 become a member?
19 A I have no knowledge of that.
20 Q No one got back to you and said you were not a member
21 of who you said you were?
22 A They previously made me a member.
23 Q With Mr. Weinman? 24 A No, sir. 25 Q They previously made you a member with the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5472 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 nonexistent credit card?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q What did you pose as to that one?
4 A I don't have a recollection, sir.
5 Q So that one, if one with Mr. Weinman and that's one,
6 were the two, and with Mr. Weinman you posed as an
7 accountant; is that correct?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q And did you discuss with Mr. Biegelman in doing this
10 that this would be some kind of test to see who would and
11 who would not get i
nto Who's Who?
12 A No, sir.
13 Q Did he explain to you that he was looking to do some
14 kind of test?
15 A No, sir.
16 Q Did you have any conception as you were doing this as
17 to what the purpose of it was?
18 A I had a general conception, yes, sir.
19 Q And did you sense that one of the purposes was to see
20 how selective Who's Who Worldwide would be? To see who
21 could get in and who couldn't?
22 A I believe it is an accurate statement.
23 Q It is one of the purposes? 24 A It was a topic, I can't say a purpose. 25 Q Was it another purpose to see if Who's Who Worldwide
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5473 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 would in fact give refunds to people?
2 A No, sir.
3 Q Did it ever occur to you on behalf of Mr. Weinman, or
4 posing as Mr. Weinman, posing as a refund as
to what would
5 happen?
6 A Not to my imagination.
7 Q You have a pretty good imagination?
8 A No.
9 Q And you came up with 61 names and were able to talk
10 as if you were those people easily?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q --
13 THE COURT: You will have to slow down,
14 Mr. Trabulus.
15 Q Did anyone suggest to you if you tried that and got a
16 refund it might hurt the government's case?
17 A No, sir.
18 Q Now, did it occur to you that every time you called
19 up posing as one of these people, you were telling the
20 salespeople that you spoke to that you had already
21 received a card; is that correct?
22 A Not in each and every instance, sir, but the bulk of
23 the instances, sir. 24 Q Were there ever any instances in which you didn't 25 tell them that you either had received a card, or you
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR,
CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5474 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 previously spoke to someone else there?
2 A It might have been one or two, I don't have a clear
3 recollection.
4 Q You called up cold?
5 A I don't recall. There might be a different
6 circumstance other than the receiving of the card. I have
7 to check all 61 transcripts to review that.
8 Q I am not asking you to do that.
9 With regard to those cases in which you said you
10 previously had spoken to someone else, or that you had
11 received a card, and sent it back and hadn't heard
12 anything, which would be virtually all of the 61, or maybe
13 all of the 61, did it occur to you that you were in effect
14 telling the salesperson you spoke to that you had already
15 undergone a certain level of selection, at least at
16 whatever level there was to reach the card?
17 A Absolu
tely not.
18 Q It didn't occur to you?
19 A No, sir, a mailing list, not a selection.
20 Q Did it ever occur to you whether or not you felt that
21 way, you didn't necessarily know what the salespeople you
22 were talking to knew about; is that correct?
23 A I can't speak for what was in their mind, sir. 24 Q Did it occur to you that you might be misleading the 25 salespeople into thinking you had already passed a certain
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5475 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 level of selection when you spoke to them?
2 A Absolutely not.
3 Q It didn't occur to you?
4 A No, sir.
5 Q Now, did it ever occur to you to call up and say to
6 them not that I had received a card or I had spoken to
7 somebody before, or something like this: Mr. Salesperson,
8 my neighbor across the street the street, whose job
is no
9 better than mine and doesn't make any more than money that
10 I do, he got a solicitation from Who's Who Worldwide and
11 is bragging all about it and by, gosh, I should be in
12 that, too, did you ever think of that?
13 A No.
14 Q Never did?
15 A No, sir.
16 Q Would it be a fair test with the sales persons to see
17 how far it would have taken you?
18 A No, sir.
19 Q It didn't occur to you, did it?
20 A No, sir.
21 Q Now, where is the book, the red one?
22 One thing we have not done is shown to the jury
23 this book. We will read to them portions of it, except on 24 a very limited basis. And with the Court's permission, 25 since you were shown page 34 by Mr. White, and you pointed
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5476 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 to Larry Flint, I would like you to go
down from left to
2 right, to read at least the names of each of the people on
3 this book, and also their titles. You don't have to read
4 the rest of it.
5 A I don't know if I can read the titles they are so
6 small. I will take a look at it.
7 No, I can't read the type. It is too small to
8 read it.
9 Q Let's read it together.
10 A Certainly.
11 Q Seymour Fleisher, chairman of the board --
12 THE COURT: You have to spell all the names. If
13 you are going to go through all the names, Mr. Trabulus --
14 or photostat the page and send it around.
15 MR. TRABULUS: That's what we will do at the
16 break. I think that might be better.
17 Q Now, one of the tests --
18 THE COURT: How much more do you have?
19 MR. TRABULUS: A fair amount more.
20 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we will take a
21 ten-minute recess.
22 Please do n
ot discuss the case, and keep an open
23 mind. 24 Please recess yourselves. 25 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5477 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 courtroom.)
2
3 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.)
4
5 THE CLERK: Jury entering.
6 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the
7 courtroom.)
8 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the
9 jury.
10 You may proceed, Mr. Trabulus.
11 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you, your Honor.
12 Your Honor, I will offer Q-1, which is a
13 photocopy of page 34 of Defendant's Exhibit Q. I have
14 shown it to Mr. White.
15 THE COURT: Any objection?
16 MR. WHITE: No, your Honor.
17 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit Queen-1, Queen-1,
18 in evidence.
19 (Defendant's Exhibit Q-1 received in evidence.)
20 MR. TRABULUS: May I publish it to the jury?
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 (Whereupon, the exhibit/exhibits were published
23 to the jury.) 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5478 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 RECROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)
2 BY MR. TRABULUS:
3 Q You had trouble reading the entry on page 34?
4 A Yes.
5 Q You were questioned by Mr. White with respect to
6 Larry Flint?
7 A Yes, I could see the name.
8 Q It is not a different typeface than the rest of it,
9 sir, is it?
10 A I can read the name, sir.
11 Q The last time you were here Mr. Dunn, the gentleman
12 in the corner there, asked you a bunch of questions
13 relating to the complaint that had been filed against you;
14 do you recall that?
15 A In general, sir.
16 Q You had reviewed the complaint to a
certain extent,
17 had you not, in your discussions with the attorney about
18 pleading guilty?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And you understood when there was someone listed in
21 the complaint as a CI, confidential informant, that it
22 represented a potential witness if you went to trial; do
23 you understand that, did you understand those discussions? 24 A Yes. 25 Q You understood when Mr. Dunn said CI such and such
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5479 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 according to the complaint said so and so, that meant if
2 you went to trial you could expect that the person who, if
3 you went to trial, would be up there saying the things
4 that you said; is that correct?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q And that, of course, entered into your decision to
7 plead guilty; is that correct?
8 A Partially.
9 Q
So, I will not ask you everything Mr. Dunn asked
10 about, but do you recall in your complaint of a CI given
11 the number 7, who had tape recorded a conversation with
12 you?
13 A I vaguely recall that, sir.
14 Q Do you recall in this complaint, CI-7, who tape
15 recorded a conversation, in which you were telling people
16 in an office meeting that the production of plaques for
17 customers started within twenty-four hours, and thus when
18 someone who called up and asked for a refund or
19 cancellation, that's it is too late, the plaque had
20 already been made; do you remember that?
21 A Is that a question?
22 Q Yes.
23 A Do I remember the statement of the CI? 24 Q Do you remember hearing that? 25 A I remember it being read to me last week here, yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5480 Watstein-recross/Trabulu
s
1 Q When you were talking to your lawyer about whether or
2 not you should plead guilty or go to trial, did you
3 understand that if you went to trial there could very well
4 be a witness in here with a tape recording saying that I
5 heard, and here it is, Mr. Watstein, telling me or other
6 people, that they should tell customers that your plaque
7 had already been made, although it hadn't been, therefore
8 you can't get a cancellation, did you understand that?
9 A In a general sense.
10 Q That's what your trial would have been like?
11 A If I had one, yes, sir.
12 Q Now, you were asked I believe about a -- Mr. Dunn
13 asked you about a Mr. Moskowitz, Lee Moskowitz; is that
14 correct?
15 A That's right, sir.
16 Q This is the man who ran the credit card through on
17 the same customer multiple times?
18 A I can't answer that, sir.
19
Q Is that the man who did that as far as you understand
20 it?
21 A On one instance he did do that, yes, sir.
22 Q Now, Mr. Dunn asked you about some CI's, according to
23 the complaint, saying that Mr. Moskowitz openly 24 acknowledged charging customer credit cards multiple 25 times, and then it went on to say in the complaint, when
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5481 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 you learned that Mr. Moskowitz was not terminated, instead
2 he was later terminated because his sales were high, do
3 you remember being told about that?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q You said the facts were right but the sequence was
6 wrong; is that right?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q You are saying it was after he was promoted, is that
9 what you meant when you said that?
10 A He previously had a promotion prior to that, yes,
11 sir.
12 Q He kept on working until July 1991?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q That's when you say you voluntarily shut the business
15 down?
16 A Yes. That was August, sir, yes.
17 Q And he was kept on there until the end; is that
18 right?
19 A Mister -- that's correct.
20 Q And you didn't fire him when you found out he had
21 done this; is that correct?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q You should have? 24 A I don't think so. 25 Q You said your operation was clean after May of 1990?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5482 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 A He never did it again and apologized for us. We
2 reversed the transaction and penalized him. I don't think
3 I should have fired him for making one mistake.
4 Q He said according to the complaint multiple times he
5 did that?
6 A Is multiple two, si
r.
7 Q I don't know what it means to me?
8 A It does to me.
9 (Reporter confers with the Court.)
10 THE COURT: Is that the correct question?
11 MR. TRABULUS: It is hard to tell.
12 THE COURT: Is that the correct answer?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: We are up-to-date now, let's slow
15 down.
16 MR. TRABULUS: I will slow down.
17 MR. SCHOER: If I may, I believe Mr. Trabulus
18 asked a question as to whether multiple meant one or
19 whether he had previously said one, and now he was saying
20 two. I believe that's what he means.
21 MR. TRABULUS: I thought it was before.
22 MR. SCHOER: Was it, I am sorry.
23 THE COURT: All right. 24 Q Did you also read in the complaint that there was 25 another CI, number 24, and according to the complaint, in
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
548
3 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 talking about CI-24, after the same part that they talked
2 about that, the complaint says the Nassau County Fire
3 Department advises that the origin of this fire, referring
4 to the fire at Mill Neck was highly suspicious, and that
5 it appears clear that it was started by incendiary means.
6 Do you recall that was in the complaint, too?
7 A It is absolutely accurate, yes, sir.
8 Q When you were talking to your attorney about deciding
9 whether or not you should plead guilty or go to trial, did
10 the subject come up with your attorney whether or not the
11 government was looking to try to possibly prove that you
12 were somehow involved in a suspicious arson for insurance?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q Did you ask your attorney why the government had put
15 that into the complaint if it really had nothing to do
16 with you?
17 A
No, sir.
18 Q And did it occur to you that you might be under
19 suspicion for arson at that point in time from the
20 government's perspective?
21 A No, sir.
22 Q Did it occur to you if you fought it and went to
23 trial there might have been, besides the various things 24 that you pled guilty to, an additional investigation of a 25 possible arson, and that you might have been subject to an
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5484 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 additional charge relating to that?
2 A No, sir.
3 Q Do you know whether your attorney in speaking to
4 Inspector Biegelman or Leonard, Who's Who ever he was
5 speaking to and whatever the plea negotiations were, asked
6 if anything there would be dropped if you agreed to plead
7 guilty to the things you pled guilty to?
8 A I have no knowledge of that, sir.
9 Q Do you know whether there was any discussion at that
10 point, when you were first talking to them about pleading
11 guilty about turning over to the government the proceeds
12 of any insurance claim at that point?
13 A Would you rephrase your question?
14 Q Yes, sure.
15 When did the things of turning over the proceeds
16 of the insurance claim, the million dollars you put in
17 for, when did it first come to your attention that it was
18 something you would have to do as part of the plea?
19 A I believe it was July of 1992, I don't have an exact
20 recollection, sir.
21 Q That would be right around the time you pled guilty,
22 sir?
23 A The guilty plea was March, I believe, of 1993. 24 Q I am sorry, it was right around the time your 25 cooperation agreement was entered into?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5485 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q And it was right around the time the deal was struck?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q And it was after the complaint was mentioned that the
5 suspicious fire was struck?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q And after that you didn't hear anything more about
8 the suspicion?
9 A After I passed the polygraph I heard nothing further
10 about it, sir.
11 Q You were aware that the polygraph is not 100
12 percent -- is not something recognized in court as
13 evidence?
14 A I am not a polygraph expert, sir.
15 Q You are aware that people passed polygraphs when
16 guilty and failed when they were guilty?
17 A I have no direct knowledge, I am sure it is correct.
18 Q Are you aware that people take certain medications
19 and can pass a polygraph no matter what?
20 A No, sir. I believe that's accurate.
21 Q
Now, in going through the complaint did you discuss
22 with your attorney the thing about one of the other CI's,
23 9121, I am kind of going in reverse order, going down? 24 A Looking around? 25 Q No, going backwards, 21, we were on 27, before.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5486 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 And did you remember discussing with your
2 attorney that this CI 21 had known you for over 21 years,
3 and that he told, or she told, I don't know if it was a
4 man or woman, the postal inspectors, had not received
5 ordered merchandise from this catalogue, the Who's Who
6 gift personal services catalogue, because your company
7 didn't order for the company what was ordered wasn't in
8 stock, and you or your company didn't pay the vendors, the
9 people who would supply the merchandise as ordered; did
10 you recall that?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And that was true, of course, was it not?
13 A Partially correct, yes, sir.
14 Q It doesn't say that that was partially the case in
15 the complaint, right?
16 A It is the allegations of the CI, sir.
17 Q So, you are saying the CI was partially making that
18 up?
19 A Partially not accurate, sir.
20 Q And it is your testimony that -- withdrawn.
21 You understood if you had gone to trial in your
22 case, we would have seen, or you would have seen from that
23 seat, somebody who is now in your seat, getting up there 24 and saying people wouldn't get what they ordered out of 25 this catalogue; they wouldn't get it because he, being
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5487 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 Watstein, you, wouldn't pay for it; it wasn't in stock,
2 and you didn't order it for them?
Did you understand
3 that?
4 A I don't understand your question, sir.
5 Q Did you understand that when you had gone to trial
6 and you were deciding whether to plead guilty or not, did
7 you understand that when you had gone to trial, you would
8 have likely have seen a witness up there testifying
9 against you, not about some other business that they were
10 running, just as you are doing with Mr. Gordon, but
11 testifying about your business, and saying that in your
12 business when people ordered merchandise they didn't get
13 it because you didn't keep it in stock, you wouldn't pay
14 the vendors who were supposed to supply it; did you
15 understand that? And you didn't even order it for the
16 customers who were supposed to be ordering it? Did you
17 understand that was happening to the customers at your
18 trial?
19 A I --
20 MR. WHITE: Object
ion, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Sustained.
22 Q I think in response to some questions by Mr. Dunn you
23 claimed you were only aware of a couple of instances in 24 which there were multiple invoices for the same customer 25 who had already paid, in other words, double-billing; were
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5488 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 you aware of that?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Were you aware in your complaint, there was a CI-20,
4 who when he spoke to you about it, was told by you that
5 you didn't want to hear about it; did you --
6 A Inaccurate statement.
7 Q That CI was mistaken?
8 A That is correct, sir.
9 Q And you didn't tell the CI you didn't want to hear
10 about it?
11 A Correct, I did not say that.
12 Q Did you tell him you wanted to hear about it so you
13 could ferret it out and ma
ke sure that everybody was
14 billed just once?
15 A There was no discussion one way or another, sir.
16 Q The CI was making it up?
17 A Probably, sir, or inaccurate.
18 Q And you understand if you had gone to trial you
19 probably would have seen that person testify that Steve
20 Watstein, Steve West, told me I didn't want to hear about
21 it if somebody is double-billing; is that right?
22 MR. WHITE: Objection.
23 THE COURT: Sustained. 24 Q Your wife, Sherri, was nominally the president of the 25 company?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5489 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q She didn't really work there, did she?
3 A No, sir, she did not.
4 Q You were asked how much money you got out of the
5 company over a period of several years?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q She was paid a much hi
gher salary than you; is that
8 correct?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q And for not doing anything; is that right?
11 A That's what I pled guilty to, sir, yes, sir.
12 Q And that was really your money, right?
13 A In a beneficial sense, yes, sir.
14 Q Did you go over with your attorneys in your
15 discussion as to whether or not you should plead guilty,
16 the portions of the complaint which dealt with giving
17 refunds or credits on Amex or Visa or Master Card charges,
18 even after the merchant accounts were closed?
19 A No, we had no such discussions, sir.
20 Q Were you aware in the complaint there were
21 confidential informants who were saying that you
22 authorized credits against merchants -- credit card
23 accounts which were closed? 24 A Yes, sir. There was a balance due as to that. 25 That's correct, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5490 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 Q Were you aware that one of the confidential
2 informants said that you had requested that credits be
3 issued in the name of Marquis Who's Who from your
4 company? Do you recall that?
5 A No, sir, I don't believe it said that. It talked
6 about a check being cashed for Marquis, if I recall
7 correctly.
8 Q Bear with me.
9 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
10 proceedings.)
11 Q While I am looking for it, you understood, did you
12 not, that there were several confidential informants,
13 talking about the time you made a decision to plead
14 guilty, who were prepared to testify that there would be a
15 hundred new customer complaints a day that they were aware
16 of?
17 A I am not sure several, but I am sure it was a
18 statement made by one of the CI's.
19 Q Indeed, it was two who would say a hundred, or 80 to
20 a hundred?
21 A I am not sure if there was one or two.
22 Q If you had gone to trial there would have been
23 evidence of that that could have been presented? Were you 24 aware of that? 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5491 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 Q Now, you testified on redirect that you used the name
2 Steven Johnson as a -- for magazine subscriptions; is that
3 correct?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q That's correct?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q And that is when you gave a -- got a renewal notice
8 you would know where it came from?
9 A As well as receiving mailing pieces --
10 Q You would --
11 A May I answer the question, sir?
12 Q Please.
13 A When I received mailing pieces addressed to Steve
14 Johnson I would
know it is a direct mail piece, and not
15 correspondence.
16 Q And it would help you keep track of things?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Nothing fraudulent in using that name for that
19 purposes?
20 A In magazine subscriptions, yes, sir.
21 Q In terms of businesses using names not the real names
22 of people, there could be legitimate business purposes for
23 that? 24 A I have seen companies doing that in the telemarketing 25 business, yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5492 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 Q You could have a company, for example, sending out
2 bills for mail, and past due bills, and the 30 day bills
3 were signed Cathy Jones, and the 60 day bills Mary Smith,
4 and the 90 day bills, Kathleen Johnson, and when the
5 response came back it said dear Ms. Johnson, or Smith or
6 Jones, the person would kn
ow the account was thirty days,
7 60 days or 90 days overdue; you understood that?
8 A Not a normal practice, but it is a practice, sir.
9 Q Nothing fraudulent with that, right, sir?
10 A I can't comment on that.
11 Q Your company in using fictitious names picked names
12 that suggested that the people were very famous, came from
13 famous and prestigious families; is that correct?
14 A Not in every case.
15 Q Harlan Carnegie was one of those?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And Thornton Rockefeller?
18 A Yes, sir, certainly.
19 Q And they were shown, were they not, as being members
20 of the committee that supposedly selected people?
21 A Not on the committee letterhead.
22 Q But they appeared on correspondence. Is that
23 correct? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q And I think one of the people on this committee
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COU
RT REPORTER
5493 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 letterhead was a former Assistant Attorney General; is
2 that correct?
3 A Yes, sir, my friend, yes, sir.
4 Q And did he receive any remuneration for that?
5 A No.
6 Q Did he know that he was -- that his name was
7 appearing on the letterhead?
8 A Absolutely, yes, sir.
9 Q This is somebody who used to work for the Justice
10 Department?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And was he involved in criminal prosecutions?
13 A I don't have first-hand knowledge, but I would assume
14 so.
15 Q And he understood that he was appearing on the
16 letterhead as being involved in a selection process; is
17 that correct?
18 A In an honorific sense, yes.
19 Q He knew he was not involved in any selection process?
20 A I can't comment what he knew.
21 Q Was he involved in a selection process?
22 A No, sir.
23 Q Unless he had delusions he wouldn't associate with 24 any particular selection process with his name being on 25 the letterhead; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5494 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 A He saw himself on an honorary committee.
2 Q He never expressed any concern to you, that there was
3 anything fraudulent in his name being used that way?
4 A Not until he was contacted by the post office, no,
5 sir.
6 Q And until somebody from the post office told him
7 there was a problem, until then he on his own never
8 expressed any concern about that; is that right?
9 A No, sir.
10 Q And after that his concern was that his name was now
11 affiliated with your company?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q Not that it had been on the letterhead as such?
14 A I think both.
15 Q You indicated you had attended court proceedings in
16 the litigation that Reed had begun against your company;
17 is that right?
18 A To the best of my recollection, yes, sir.
19 Q In connection with those court proceedings there were
20 also depositions taken?
21 A Subsequent, yes, sir.
22 Q Subsequent to the beginning of the court proceeding?
23 A I can't respond with a yes or no. There were two 24 separate proceedings, sir. 25 Q Did you attend the deposition besides your own if
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5495 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 there was --
2 A Besides my own, yes, sir.
3 Q Withdrawn.
4 I believe you testified earlier you didn't
5 testify at a deposition?
6 A At a deposition.
7 Q Did you testify at your own deposition in that?
8 A Yes.
9 Q You did?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q And was Debra Horowitz an employee of yours?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q Did she testify at the deposition?
14 A I don't have a recollection of that, sir.
15 Q In deciding whether or not to plead guilty, did you
16 review that portion of the complaint, in which it
17 summarized portions of her testimony?
18 A No, sir.
19 Q Were you aware or did your lawyer mention to you that
20 that you were the only one who authorized customer credits
21 and your company issued credit slips the name of Who's Who
22 in America, the Marquis publication?
23 A Who's Who of Executives in America, is the corporate 24 name. 25 Q And she testified specific that your company issued
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5496 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 credit slips the name of Marquis publication? Were you
2 aware of t
hat?
3 A I don't have a recollection of that, sir.
4 Q I will show you the complaint, page 73.
5 (Handed to the witness.)
6 Q Now, does that refresh your recollection that in fact
7 when you were determining as to whether to plead guilty,
8 you were made aware that Ms. Horowitz was -- testified
9 that credit slips were issued by your company and in the
10 name of the Marquis Who's Who company?
11 A It is a typographical error.
12 Q It is --
13 A Or inaccurate.
14 Q Marquis is not typographical error. It is a name?
15 A She made no such testimony.
16 Q So the government's complaint against you was wrong?
17 A In that one minor portion, yes.
18 Q If indeed such a thing was happening, you would have
19 been charging in effect Marquis for the refunds that your
20 company should have been making, if indeed it happened?
21 A I don't quite understa
nd your question, sir.
22 Q Withdrawn.
23 You were asked about posing as a deli owner? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q Do you know whether there are any deli owners in any
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5497 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 of the books?
2 A I have not examined the books, sir.
3 Q When you were posing and doing all this to see who
4 might get in and might not, with Mr. Biegelman, did you
5 mention to him some of the sales pitches you heard or
6 sales presentations you heard had CD-ROMs spoken about?
7 A We had no such discussions about CD-ROMs.
8 Q You certainly heard things about CD-ROMs; is that
9 correct?
10 A Absolutely.
11 Q If you wanted to know if there were deli owners in
12 the book, do you think you would have had Mr. Weinman, the
13 one who became a deli owner, order a CD-ROM?
14
A I had no interest as to whether there were deli
15 owners or not.
16 Q Just as to whether or not you could insinuate a deli
17 owner in the book; is that correct?
18 A No, sir.
19 Q You didn't do that because a deli owner never
20 presented a deli owner -- credit card into the company?
21 A If it was accepted he did not do that.
22 Q In speaking to Biegelman or Leonard or any of the
23 others, did you ever discuss if it might be possible to 24 get a credit card company to assist in the investigation 25 by authorizing a credit card or cards in fictitious names?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5498 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 A No, sir.
2 Q Did you know that it was something that is often
3 done?
4 A I had no knowledge of that, sir.
5 Q Did you discuss with them that it might be desirable
6 to create
more fictitious members to see what would happen
7 in terms of refunds to see if they actually got in?
8 A I don't understand your question.
9 Q Did you discuss with them or they with you if it
10 might be desirable if it might be better to actually
11 consummate the greater number of members you did other
12 than Mr. Weinman and that other one?
13 A Absolutely no discussions about that.
14 Q Did you ask the government if they had a copy of the
15 CD-ROM?
16 A I provided it.
17 Q You provided a copy of the CD-ROM?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Where did you get it?
20 A Mr. Weinman ordered it to the best of my knowledge.
21 Q He ordered a CD-ROM?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q Did you take the CD-ROM and see if any deli owners 24 are in it? 25 A Not my instructions, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5499 W
atstein-recross/Trabulus
1 Q Do you know whether the government did that?
2 A I have no idea. I am not privy to the government.
3 Q Rather than simply trying to find out who might, I
4 mean of perhaps deceiving salespeople into thinking they
5 already had undergone a certain amount of acceptance might
6 pass by the sales people to find out instead who might
7 have made it into the directory, did you respond to -- did
8 you try that?
9 A I disagree with your premise, might have, so I can't
10 respond to your question, sir.
11 Q Let's take a look at the CD-ROM and then we might not
12 have too many more questions.
13 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, for the record, I am
14 booting the computer with Defendant's Exhibit S, which is
15 the CD-ROM in it.
16 THE COURT: Very well.
17 Q There is a logo there, CD Answer Dataware.
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Did
you ever see that before?
20 A No, sir.
21 Q Or anything like that?
22 A No, not like it.
23 Q We have a copyright notice, Who's Who Executive 24 Club. Ever see that copyright notice before? 25 A No.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5500 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 Q Now you have a screen with space where you can type
2 stuff in. Have you ever seen that before?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q You have?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q On the CD-ROM?
7 A In a database, sir.
8 Q Something completely different?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q Now, next to type of business -- I will do something
11 different here.
12 We have a complex search, and I will do a full
13 text search. And I will type in the word delicatessen
14 here.
15 If you want to do it afterward with the word
16 deli, you can try it.
17 I am pressing the little signal here that has a
18 sigma.
19 What number shows up, one, number one?
20 A Yes. One deli.
21 Q One deli.
22 Siegfried Meyer --
23 THE COURT: You have to slow down and spell the 24 names. 25 MR. TRABULUS: S I E G F R I E D, K period Meyer,
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5501 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 M E Y E R, chief executive officer of Siegfried's
2 Delicatessen, Inc., Salt Lake City.
3 A Uh-huh.
4 Q That's the one?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q And it says he is in the food business?
7 A It seems accurate.
8 Q Major product of service, European import sausages,
9 yes?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q And type of organization, manufacturing,
12 distributing, wholesale and retail, right?
13 A That's what it says, sir.
14 Q Marketing area,
what does it say?
15 A Western USA.
16 Q Not Salt Lake City, western USA?
17 A That's what it says, sir.
18 Q It doesn't sound like a little one deli?
19 A I can't say, sir.
20 Q This does not sound like a deli whose owner, chief
21 executive officer, should not necessarily be in a Who's
22 Who? You can't tell?
23 A I can't respond with a yes or no. 24 Q If I tell you that's the one deli in the whole book, 25 do you have any reason to believe that any deli owners who
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5502 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 shouldn't have been in Who's Who were actually accepted?
2 A I have no knowledge other than the one I was accepted
3 in.
4 Q Were you accepted, sir?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q Did you pay?
7 A I was accepted. That's your question, sir.
8 Q Do you know whether in fac
t after it gets out of the
9 hands of a salesperson whether or not there was any
10 subsequent review?
11 A I don't have any knowledge of the --
12 Q You know Mr. Weinman, the accountant passed by any
13 subsequent review?
14 A No, sir, I don't know that.
15 Q He became has member; is that right?
16 A They charged his credit card, sir.
17 Q They charged his credit card?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Do you know if your credit card would have been
20 charged if you would have submitted it when you posed as a
21 deli owner?
22 A Highest probability, yes.
23 Q Do you know one way or another as a fact? 24 A No, sir. 25 Q You have no knowledge?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5503 Watstein-recross/Trabulus
1 A Just my own guess, yes, sir.
2 Q In fact, the very method you used of investigating
3 this organization was calculated to give you no knowledge
4 as to whether or not you would actually get in when you
5 posed as these people; is that right?
6 A Absolutely inaccurate, sir.
7 MR. TRABULUS: No further questions.
8 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
9 THE COURT: Anyone else?
10
11 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
12 BY MR. NELSON:
13 Q Good afternoon, Mr. West.
14 A Good afternoon.
15 Q Mr. West, do you recall you were shown the 1993-1994
16 registry of Who's Who Global Edition, which included the
17 name of Larry Flint; is that correct?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Now, when you interviewed Frank Martin, that was on
20 January 20th, 1993; is that correct?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q He indicated he had left the company on November --
23 in late November, 1992; is that correct? 24 A I think it was earlier than that, sir. 25 Q It was som
etime in 1992; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5504 Watstein-recross/Nelson
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q And this registry is for people who enter the
3 registry in late 1993 and 1994; is that correct?
4 A I don't believe so, sir.
5 Q Well, it is for people who -- this registry was
6 published after Mr. Martin had left the company; is that
7 correct?
8 A It was published, yes, that's correct.
9 Q And Larry Flint is somebody whom you would
10 acknowledge as being a rather wealthy gentleman; is that
11 it?
12 A I have no first-hand knowledge. I would assume so,
13 sir.
14 Q I didn't see the movie, but my wife told me about the
15 movie, but she told me he was pretty wealthy; is that
16 correct?
17 A I am sure that's what your wife told you.
18 Q Thank you.
19 Would you agree, and
I would like to show you the
20 entry with respect to Mr. Flint.
21 Now, can you read that entry for Larry Flint?
22 (Handed to the witness.)
23 A I can't read the small type. 24 Q You were able to hear -- read it when the government 25 shows it to you? Do you have different vision when the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5505 Watstein-recross/Nelson
1 government shows it to you and the defense shows it to
2 you?
3 A My vision is the same.
4 Q Let me read it --
5 THE COURT: Mr. Nelson is picking up speed.
6 MR. NELSON: Withdrawn. And I will read it
7 slowly, the entry.
8 Q Am I correct it says Larry Flint, F L I N T,
9 publisher, L F P, Inc., 9171 Wilshire Boulevard, Beverly
10 Hills, California, business, publishing, P/S magazines,
11 organization, manufacturer, distributor, distribution
12
international, experience, management marketing, F B,
13 Harold Robins, and I guess that's his favorite book. F M,
19 everything on the page but the jury had an opportunity to
20 do so, but by 1993, 1994, Mr. Flint was indeed a
21 businessman engaged in an international businesses
22 publication magazine?
23 A I believe it is accurate, sir. 24 Q And would I be correct in stating that he was the 25 type of individual who would be renowned or maybe have
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5506 Watstein-recross/Nelson
1 notoriety throughout the world as being somebody who was
2 an international businessman and publisher?
3 A I believe notoriety is an appropriate phrase.
4 Q He was known throughout the world; is that correct?
5 A Substantially, sir.
6 Q I believe in 1993 he had been injured by having been
7 shot; is that correct?
8 A Yes, sir, he was shot, yes.
9 Q He subsequently won a lawsuit that went to the United
10 States Supreme Court defending and championing the First
11 Amendment rights and privileges of people in this country;
12 is that correct?
13 A I have no first-hand knowledge of that, sir.
14 Q My wife told me that, I didn't see the movie.
15 Would I be correct in stating, sir, that
16 Mr. Flint was indeed the publisher and owner of the kind
17 of magazine that had international distribution?
18 A Distribution, yes, sir.
19 Q Now, I believe you were asked by Mr. White the
20 question of whether or not Frank Martin apparently knew
21 you were arr
ested during the course of your interview on
22 January 20th, 1993, and yet, he still wanted to come to
23 work for your company; do you recall being asked that 24 question on redirect examination? 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5507 Watstein-recross/Nelson
1 Q Am I correct that you told Mr. Martin during the
2 course of the interview that you learned your lesson as a
3 result of the fact that you were arrested, and you
4 intended to operate a fully legitimate business at this
5 time?
6 A No, sir, you are not correct.
7 Q Okay.
8 Am I correct that you told Mr. Martin, or at
9 least implied to Mr. Martin, that you wanted to know what
10 was wrong with other businesses, so that you could be
11 completely legitimate?
12 A No, sir, I didn't say that.
13 Q Did you ever say that to anybody e
lse during any
14 other interview that you conducted?
15 A I don't have a clear recollection of that, sir.
16 Q Let me refresh your recollection.
17 A Thank you.
18 MR. NELSON: I would like to play a tape
19 recording provided by the U.S. government, on December
20 8th, 1992.
21 Q Do you remember you interviewed people from Who's Who
22 Worldwide for job interviews on December 8th, 1992?
23 A Yes, sir. 24 THE COURT: Is that tape in evidence? 25 MR. NELSON: At this time I would like to offer
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5508 Watstein-recross/Nelson
1 in evidence and I will mark for identification, and I
2 guess it will be Defendant's Exhibit A -- I will make it
3 BA at this point.
4 MR. SCHOER: No. Those are already pre-marked.
5 (Mr. Nelson confers with Mr. Trabulus.)
6 MR. JENKS: Try anot
her letter. You can't use
7 BA.
8 MR. NELSON: I will try CA at this time.
9 THE COURT: A transcript or just a tape?
10 MR. NELSON: It is just a tape. I do not have a
11 transcript.
12 THE COURT: All right.
13 Do you have the date on that tape?
14 MR. NELSON: Yes, your Honor, December 8th,
15 1992. It is marked by tape number 3, side A, one of two
16 tapes.
17 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, until I know what
18 Mr. Nelson wants to play, and why it is being offered, the
19 government has an objection.
20 THE COURT: I don't have a transcript of the
21 tape.
22 MR. WHITE: Nor do I.
23 THE COURT: I will have to hear it. 24 MR. NELSON: I will move along with other 25 portions, and during the lunch recess we will have a
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5509 Watstein-recross/Nelson
1 sidebar
and discuss this.
2 MR. WHITE: We might be able to work it out. I
3 don't know what Mr. Nelson is referring to.
4 THE COURT: Very well. Try to conclude the other
5 portions of your recross-examination.
6 Q Do you recall on December 8th, 1992 you interviewed
7 at least three other former employees of Who's Who
8 Worldwide?
9 A I recall interviews in general, but not specifically
10 three, sir.
11 Q All right.
12 Do you recall you interviewed a number of people
13 that day?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q Okay.
16 And you recorded the interviews of all of those
17 individuals; is that correct?
18 A That is correct, sir.
19 Q And that was under the supervision of Inspector
20 Leonard at that time?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And after you made those recordings on December the
23 8th, did you provide the tape recordings that were made
24 that day to Inspector Leonard? 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5510 Watstein-recross/Nelson
1 Q And that was prior to the interviews that were later
2 conducted on January 20th, 1993 of Mr. Martin; is that
3 correct?
4 A Mr. Martin and others, yes, sir.
5 Q Okay.
6 So, you had the opportunity, as did Inspector
7 Leonard, to listen to the recordings of the people made on
8 December 8th; is that correct?
9 A No, sir.
10 Q Did you listen to any of those recordings?
11 A No, sir.
12 Q Do you know if Inspector Leonard listened to any of
13 those recordings?
14 A No first-hand knowledge, sir.
15 Q Did you discuss the contents of those recordings with
16 him during the six week period of time from December 8th
17 to January 20th, 1992, when you were a cooperating witness
18 for the government?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q You never reviewed the exculpatory portions of the
21 transcripts -- withdrawn, the tapes, as it related to
22 former employees of Who's Who Worldwide; is that what you
23 are telling us, sir? 24 A That's correct, sir. 25 Q Now, do you recall being asked by the government
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5511 Watstein-recross/Nelson
1 about certain portions of the transcript, which the
2 January 20th, 1993 transcript on redirect examination
3 earlier today?
4 A You are referring to the one with Frank Martin, sir?
5 Q Yes.
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q And specifically, you recall that Mr. White went
8 through with you the litany of problems, as Mr. Martin
9 related them to be, as they existed with respect to Who's
10 Who Worldwide?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q An
d I believe one of those problems was the lack of
13 nominations; is that correct?
14 A Among other ones, yes, sir.
15 Q As relating to nominations, you later became aware
16 that Who's Who Worldwide, indeed, by November of 1994, by
17 the time that Frank Martin returned to the company
18 solicited and acquired nominations from existing members
19 of Who's Who?
20 A I became aware of that statement at this trial here,
21 sir.
22 Q Well, isn't it a fact that you became aware of that
23 at a prior period of time? 24 A Not to the best of my recollection, sir. 25 Q I believe previously the government introduced on
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5512 Watstein-recross/Nelson
1 redirect examination a number of different letters that
2 you received in the mail; is that correct?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q I would like
to show you Exhibit 1605, dated December
5 5th, 1994.
6 (Handed to the witness.)
7 Q Did you receive that letter, sir?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q Could you read the first paragraph of that letter,
10 sir.
11 A Yes, sir.
12 We recently received submissions from qualified
13 executives to be included in the gold book edition of the
14 Who's Who Registry, many of whom have already been
15 approved for inclusion.
16 Q Now, could you read the PS at the very bottom.
17 A Candidates are nominated by one or more of the
18 established members or by the office of public affairs.
19 Q Now, you received this letter in the mail from Who's
20 Who Worldwide some time, I guess, shortly after December
21 5th, 1994; is that correct?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q And so, you became aware prior to your testimony here 24 at trial that by the time that Frank Martin had re
turned 25 to the company in November of 1994, Who's Who Worldwide
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5513 Watstein-recross/Nelson
1 was -- had in place a procedure, and was actually
2 soliciting people from nominations that came from other
3 established members; is that right, sir?
4 A No, sir. It is not accurate at all.
5 Q You just didn't believe the letter; is that right?
6 A Absolutely. Did not believe the letter at all. You
7 are correct, sir.
8 Q Now, another problem that you claimed existed, was
9 the non-existence of the credit card -- the CD-ROM in
10 1993; is that correct?
11 A No, sir.
12 Q Mr. Martin advised you that there was no interactive
13 software in 1993, but that it was being worked on; is that
14 correct?
15 A That's what he stated, yes, sir.
16 Q And I believe you just testified on
examination from
17 Mr. Trabulus, that you actually ordered and acquired the
18 CD-ROM in 1994, I believe it was; is that correct?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q Okay.
21 And that problem was resolved, I guess?
22 A I have no first-hand knowledge, sir, as to whether it
23 worked or not. 24 Q Did your relative receive the Tribute Magazine from 25 Who's Who Worldwide?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5514 Watstein-recross/Nelson
1 A Just one copy, sir.
2 Q And in the Tribute Magazine it reflected the fact
3 that Who's Who Worldwide was now providing an MBNA Master
4 Card to members if they elected to acquire one; is that
5 correct?
6 A I saw that a few days ago, yes.
7 Q And so, the other problem Mr. Martin reflected, he
8 believed existed at the time he left the company, had
9 likewise been resolved by th
e time he returned to Who's
10 Who Worldwide; is that correct?
11 A The other is the proper terminology, sir?
12 Q He told you about three. Nominations, credit card,
13 interactive software.
14 There was now a nominations procedure in effect;
15 there was a CD-ROM; and there was a credit card being
16 offered; is that right?
17 A He discussed other problems as well, sir.
18 Q Those three, three for three, correct?
19 A If you repeat your phraseology, I will respond to
20 your questions, sir.
21 Q Of the three problems that Mr. Martin told you in his
22 perception existed with respect to the presentation in
23 1993 when you interviewed him, by the time he returned to 24 the company in 1994, there existed in place a procedure as 25 set forth in this letter that you yourself received for
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
55
15 Watstein-recross/Nelson
1 members to nominate other members; is that correct?
2 A I believe the procedure existed per your -- per that
3 conversation, sir, yes.
4 Q And certainly based on the existence of such a
5 letter, and in fact in Tribute Magazine it asks for
6 members to nominate other members, it would have been
7 reasonable for Mr. Martin to assume upon his return to the
8 company that in fact such a procedure existed; is that
9 correct?
10 A I can't respond for Mr. Martin's thinking, but I
11 believe it might be reasonable, yes.
12 Q Likewise, since the magazine reflected there was a
13 credit card and people were acquiring credit cards, that
14 problem which he claimed existed in 1993 was resolved; is
15 that correct?
16 A It was eventually resolved, yes.
17 Q As relating to interactive software, certainly your
18 actual receip
t of such a CD-ROM, reflects that that
19 problem was likewise resolved?
20 A Not exactly correct, sir.
21 Q Did you receive it?
22 A Received it, couldn't get it to work.
23 Q Did you receive it? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q Was it provided?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5516 Watstein-recross/Nelson
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q The fact that you couldn't get it to work, certainly
3 doesn't mean that's Mr. Trabulus hasn't been able to play
4 it for the jury over the last six weeks and shown them it
5 works?
6 A It depends on which version he is playing, sir.
7 Q Did you have a chance to see it working in the
8 courtroom?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q Now, another question that you asked -- withdrawn --
11 that you were asked by Mr. White on redirect examination
12 related to the portion of the transcript, where
you
13 discussed the percentage of the people accepted, and where
14 you state to Mr. Martin, so 99 percent of the people are
15 accepted; is that right? Do you recall that portion of
16 the transcript?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Now, during that transcript, and during that tape
19 recording, there is not any point in time during the
20 recording -- at least that I saw -- and the transcript,
21 where you asked Mr. Martin, are you aware how the mailing
22 lists are acquired? Am I right?
23 A Yes, I believe you are correct, sir. 24 Q All right. 25 And there is nowhere in that transcript that you
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5517 Watstein-recross/Nelson
1 ask Mr. Martin, are you aware whether or not Who's Who
2 Worldwide uses what is known in the industry as segmented
3 mailing lists? You don't ask him about that, do you?
4 A That is correct, sir.
5 Q And you don't ask Mr. Martin during the course of the
6 recording whether or not there is some form of a weeding
7 out process that takes place when the lead cards come back
8 before they are given to the salespeople themselves, do
9 you?
10 A That is correct.
11 Q And you don't ask Mr. Martin whether or not the sales
12 managers themselves go through those cards before
13 distribution to the sales staff to see whether or not
14 people, just based upon their position, might be
15 ineligible for inclusions? You don't ask him about that
16 either; is that correct?
17 A That is correct.
18 Q And finally, you don't ask Mr. Martin whether or not
19 after a sale is made there is some form of final review
20 that takes place by the administration department; is that
21 right?
22 A That is correct.
23 Q And th
ose were questions that you didn't feel -- 24 withdrawn. 25 Those were questions that you did not ask him
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5518 Watstein-recross/Nelson
1 during the course of the interviews; is that correct?
2 A That is correct.
3 Q And are you aware, sir, as you sit here today, that
4 each one of those procedures in fact existed and were in
5 place upon Mr. Martin's return in 1994, and in fact,
6 existed at the time he left the company in 1992? Were you
7 aware of that?
8 A I have no awareness of that, sir.
9 Q Because you weren't working in the company, you
10 didn't have that information; is that right?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And now, am I also correct that you were asked a
13 question by Mr. White, when he went through these various
14 responses that Mr. Martin gave to you -- I think it was
15 something along the lines, there was nothing that was
16 forcing Mr. Martin to stay in this room; isn't that
17 right? I believe that was the question that Mr. White
18 asked you, or words to that effect. Do you recall being
19 asked that question?
20 A In substance, yes, sir.
21 Q And this was a job interview, right?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q And Mr. Martin was unemployed that day; isn't that 24 correct? 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5519 Watstein-recross/Nelson
1 Q And you were offering him a job between 50 and
2 $75,000; isn't that correct?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q Well, do you recall having stated during the course
5 of the transcript that this position you were looking at
6 him to occupy would be a position that would pay somewhere
7 between 50 and $75,000, with the perquisites?
8 A He was a candidate, I was not offering him a job.
9 Q He was a candidate among other people at that time?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q You made it clear to him other people were being
12 interviewed?
13 A Certainly that was implied.
14 Q Certainly, Mr. Martin had a reason for sitting there
15 in the room talking to you, because he was looking to get
16 a job; isn't that right?
17 A Yes, sir, certainly.
18 MR. NELSON: Your Honor, with respect to the
19 remainder of my cross examination it bears on the tapes.
20 I know it is five minutes before the lunch recess, perhaps
21 we will be able to recess first?
22 MR. DUNN: If you want I have four or five
23 questions, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: No. We will take care of this now. 25 Ladies and gentlemen, we will recess until 1:30.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5520 Watstein-recross/Nelson
1 Please keep an open mind, and see you at 1:30.
2 Have a nice lunch.
3 (Whereupon, at this time the jury leaves the
4 courtroom.)
5 THE COURT: You may step out, Mr. Watstein, thank
6 you.
7 (Whereupon, at this time the witness left the
8 witness stand.)
9 MR. NELSON: Your Honor, if I might make a
10 suggestion, and what might be the appropriate thing to do,
11 and it is only a suggestion that I will alert Mr. White of
12 the portion of the tape I wish to play. I have them on a
13 counter, we can go through them. Then if we have an
14 objection, possibly we can meet ten minutes before we can
15 reconvene, if he has an objection, we can meet then and
16 discuss it from there.
17 THE COURT: We will recess until 25 after 1:00.
18 Meanwhile you can go over that.
19 MR. NELSON: Thank you, sir.
20 (Luncheon
Recess.)
21
22
23 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5521
1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N
2
3 (The following takes place in the absence of the
4 jury.)
5 THE COURT: Yes, Mr. Nelson.
6 MR. NELSON: During the luncheon recess I had an
7 opportunity to play for the government each of the three
8 excerpts I would like to have the opportunity to play
9 during the trial.
10 I would like to note for the record that the
11 three tapes are tapes provided to us by the government on
12 Friday. These were the recordings of Mr. West as part of
13 the investigations apparently into Oxford Who's Who, and
14 were in the Oxford Who's Who file, and were retrieved by
15 the government in response for my request for 3500
16 material last Tuesday at the conclusion of the direct
17 examination of Mr. West.
18 For that reason I do apologize to the Court and
19 to the government. I did have the opportunity over the --
20 I didn't have the opportunity over the weekend to have the
21 transcripts prepared of those excerpts, it was
22 approximately 15 hours of recordings. To listen was
23 voluminous enough to find the portions I wish to play. 24 The portions I wish to play I believe are prior 25 inconsistent statements made by Mr. West in response to
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5522
1 the question I asked him which led to my playing of the
2 tape. I asked him, did you advise other people, other
3 than Mr. Martin, during the course of the job interviews,
4 that you wanted there to be a completely legitimate
5 company here, and, therefore, you wanted to know what the
6 problems were in the prior com
pany that they worked in in
7 order to make sure that that was not the problem in the
8 new company that he was setting up.
9 Mr. West said he did not make such a
10 representation.
11 The very first statement on the recording I
12 wished to play is Mr. West stating, I am starting a new
13 company. I want -- I want to know the problems here,
14 because I want this to be a completely legitimate company.
15 THE COURT: You say he denied saying that?
16 MR. NELSON: That's my recollection, your Honor.
17 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, the government's
18 objection -- I think we have to start with the premise
19 that this is hearsay.
20 What Mr. Nelson wants to get in is not just
21 Mr. West's question. He wants to get in an answer by this
22 unnamed employee --
23 THE COURT: What is the answer? 24 MR. WHITE: He wants to play an extended portion 25 of it
where an employee says something like, he is not --
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5523
1 hold on.
2 There are three separate tapes, or portions of
3 tapes --
4 THE COURT: Mr. Nelson is entitled to show a
5 prior inconsistent statement. If he has that prior
6 inconsistent statement, we will let that part get in. I
7 am not interested in the answer or anything else in the
8 conversation.
9 MR. WHITE: That's my point.
10 THE COURT: That's it.
11 MR. WHITE: If he just asks Mr. West the
12 question, that shows the inconsistency, the answer is
13 irrelevant.
14 MR. NELSON: I am also seeking to elicit by
15 playing the three excerpts Mr. West's state of mind at the
16 time he interviewed my client, Frank Martin.
17 It is something I couldn't do on my
18 cross-examination because I didn't have the
tapes at that
19 point in time.
20 THE COURT: What is the state of mind?
21 MR. NELSON: He was trying to elicit information
22 which was inculpatory as to the target corporation.
23 THE COURT: Your request is denied. 24 What else do you want to show? 25 If you have an inconsistent statement, show it.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5524
1 I will not allow you to show his state of mind in another
2 conversation with another person.
3 Anything else?
4 MR. NELSON: No, your Honor.
5 MR. WHITE: Should the procedure be that
6 Mr. Nelson -- not that it be admitted in evidence, but
7 that he plays it for Mr. West and not the jury?
8 THE COURT: If he is a technician, and
9 technically acutely able and expert enough to do that, I
10 will let him play the one statement. Yes, he wants the
11 jury to he
ar it and Mr. West -- what is his real name?
12 MR. NELSON: Watstein.
13 THE COURT: In Watstein's own words; is that
14 correct?
15 MR. NELSON: Yes.
16 MR. WHITE: Not the answers?
17 THE COURT: Not the answers.
18 MR. NELSON: I am not a technician, but I am
19 certainly going to be able to press the button quickly
20 enough.
21 THE COURT: That's the word I am looking for,
22 technician.
23 MR. NELSON: I was on the audiovisual squad in 24 school. 25 THE COURT: You are certainly not in the category
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5525
1 of Mr. Trabulus.
2 MR. NELSON: No, sir, CD-ROM is not for me.
3 THE COURT: Anything else?
4 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, these tapes contain
5 exculpatory material on them, contains material which
6 should have been disclosed a long time ago to u
s. It
7 contains material we should have been allowed to introduce
8 on the Franks issue. If you want me to summarize what it
9 is --
10 THE COURT: Not now I don't. I will give you an
11 opportunity at 5:00 o'clock to summarize it.
12 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you.
13 THE COURT: Let's bring in the jury.
14 THE CLERK: Yes, Judge.
15 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
16 proceedings.)
17 THE CLERK: Jury entering.
18 (Whereupon, the jury at this time entered the
19 courtroom.)
20 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the
21 jury,.
22 You may proceed, Mr. Nelson.
23 MR. NELSON: Thank you. 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5526
1 S T E V E N W A T S T E I N ,
2 called as a witness, having been previously
3 duly sworn, was examined and testified a
s
4 follows:
5
6 RECROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd)
7 BY MR. NELSON:
8 Q Good afternoon.
9 A Good afternoon.
10 Q One of the questions I asked you during the morning
11 session is: Am I correct that during your December 8th,
12 1992 interviews that were conducted at the Marriott
13 total -- the Garden City Hotel, I apologize.
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q Did you advise the people who were there for
16 interviews that you previously had been arrested, and that
17 you wished to now have a legitimate business, and as a
18 result of that you wanted to find out if there were any
19 problems in the presentation or the manner in which the
20 prior employers of these prospective employees operated so
21 as you would eliminate that potential problem? Did you
22 tell them that during the course of the interview?
23 A As it relates to the December interviews
, it may very 24 well be true. I don't have a serious recollection of it, 25 though.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5527 Watstein-recross/Nelson
1 Q I would like to play a brief selection of the tape
2 which reflects that, if you would put on your headphones,
3 if you will.
4 (Tape is played.)
5 Q Now, does that refresh your recollection that you
6 were told, at least this one individual, that you had told
7 this individual during the course of December the 8th -- I
8 am sorry, did you hear what I was saying?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Does that refresh your recollection that on December
11 the 8th, you had at least told this one individual that
12 you wanted to be allowed, what problems there were in the
13 presentation, because you wanted to be sure that your
14 business, which was not going to be a real business, was a
15 legitimate business?
16 A Essentially accurate.
17 Q In essence that's what Mr. Martin understood when he
18 came to the interview with you; isn't that correct?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q Didn't you make that known to him at the conclusion
21 of the transcript when you indicated to him at page 22 of
22 the transcript, I learned my lesson in the past? You were
23 alluding to the fact that you had been previously 24 arrested, and you now wanted to operate a legitimate 25 business; is that right, sir?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5528 Watstein-recross/Nelson
1 A No, sir, not totally accurate.
2 Q You weren't alluding to the fact that you learned the
3 lesson in the past?
4 A I learned many lessons in the past.
5 Q And you told other people you wanted to run a
6 legitimate business, but Mr. Martin, it is n
ot something
7 you wanted to tell him?
8 A Not accurate, sir. I can't answer it with a yes or
9 no.
10 Q Now, am I correct that you interviewed at least four
11 or five different people who had been employees of Who's
12 Who Worldwide on December 8th, and January 20th,
13 respectively in 1992 and '93?
14 A Yes, sir, that's accurate.
15 Q And there were recordings made of each and every one
16 of those interviews; is that correct?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q And those tapes were provided to Inspector Leonard
19 who was supervising your cooperation with the government;
20 is that correct?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Am I correct in July of 1993, individuals who had
23 been employees and principals of Oxford Who's Who were 24 arrested? 25 A I think an individual was arrested.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
552
9 Watstein-recross/Nelson
1 Q In July of 1993; is that correct?
2 A Yes, sir, a singular individual.
3 Q And you had made recordings of Oxford Who's Who
4 employees in in both December and January of '92 and '93
5 as well?
6 A I am not sure if there were both, or if they were
7 former and current employees.
8 Q And there weren't any employees of Who's Who
9 Worldwide of whom you had recorded the interviews of at
10 least four or five people arrested in July of 1993; is
11 that correct?
12 A That is correct.
13 Q And there were not any individuals who had been in
14 the employee of Who's Who Worldwide who were arrested in
15 July of 1994 either; is that correct?
16 A That's correct to the best of my knowledge, yes, sir.
17 Q I believe you testified that you were eventually
18 sentenced in July of 1995; is that right?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q Okay.
21 And your cooperation was ongoing from 1992 to
22 1995; is that right?
23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q And we went through all the different investigations 25 that you had participated in; is that right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5530 Watstein-recross/Nelson
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q And am I correct that in late February, early March,
3 1995, Judge Mishler was insistent on you being sentenced
4 because the case had been outstanding for such a lengthy
5 period of time?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q Do you recall that the government, and at that time
8 it would have been Assistant United States Attorney Seth
9 Marvin, had to write a letter to Judge Mishler requesting,
10 despite the judge's unambiguously expressed intent to go
11 forward with your sentence on March 31st, 1995, making a
12 request of the Cour
t that your sentence be adjourned?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q Okay.
15 Am I correct that at that time Mr. Marvin
16 submitted an affidavit under seal to Judge Mishler in
17 order to adjourn your sentence?
18 A I had no knowledge of that, sir.
19 Q Well, did you receive a copy of the letter which was
20 sent by the Assistant United States Attorney to Judge
21 Mishler seeking an adjournment of your sentence?
22 A I don't believe so. My attorney may have, sir.
23 Q Your attorney at that time was Lawrence J. Rice? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q Roger Bernstein?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5531 Watstein-recross/Nelson
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q And I would like to show you at this time a letter
3 which I will mark as Defendant's Exhibit CC?
4 THE COURT: On the previous exhibit you offered
5 Defendant's Exhibit CA, Charl
ey Abel, the tape recording,
6 we are only putting together that portion; is that
7 correct?
8 MR. NELSON: Yes.
9 THE COURT: Any objection to that?
10 MR. WHITE: The portion played, no.
11 MR. NELSON: I am noting for the record this is
12 Exhibit CD, and the reason is I have other tapes marked CB
13 and CC, and we discussed it out of the presence of the
14 jury.
15 THE COURT: First of all, Defendant's Exhibit CA,
16 Charley Abel, a portion of it that was played, is in
17 evidence.
18 (Defendant's Exhibit CA received in evidence.)
19 THE COURT: This is CD, Charley dog?
20 MR. NELSON: Yes, your Honor.
21 (Mr. Nelson confers with Mr. White.)
22 Q I would like to show you a letter dated March 8th,
23 1995, addressed to the Honorable Jacob Mishler from the 24 United States Attorney's Office, and signed by Seth L. 25 Marvin, Assistant Uni
ted States Attorney.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5532 Watstein-recross/Nelson
1 (Handed to the witness.)
2 Q Had you ever seen this letter before, sir?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q And are you aware, sir, that Mr. Marvin was in fact
5 the Assistant United States Attorney who was supervising
6 the investigations that you were a cooperate witness, as a
7 part of?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And am I correct that Mr. Marvin was the individual
10 who eventually wrote the letter to Judge Mishler pursuant
11 to United States sentencing guidelines, Section 5K 1.1,
12 setting forth the nature and extent of your cooperation?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q And am I correct that by this letter Mr. Marvin asks
15 of the Court to grant for the reasons set forth in the
16 attached affidavit, however, we submit that in the
17 interests of justice, f
avor the finite adjournment of
18 these proceedings?
19 THE COURT: Is this in evidence, now?
20 MR. WHITE: No, it is not, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Why are you reading it then?
22 MR. NELSON: I will withdraw the question, your
23 Honor. 24 Q Were you advised of the fact that Mr. Marvin 25 contacted Judge Mishler requesting an adjournment of your
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5533 Watstein-recross/Nelson
1 sentence?
2 A Could you repeat the question, sir?
3 Q Were you advised of the fact that the Assistant
4 United States Attorney, Mr. Marvin, requested an
5 adjournment of your sentence on March 8th, 1995?
6 A I can't answer that with a yes or no, sir.
7 Q Did you become aware of the fact that your sentence
8 was adjourned from March 31st, 1995, to a later date?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q And did yo
u become aware of the fact that the
11 assistants -- the Assistant United States Attorney
12 submitted a letter to the Judge asking for an adjournment
13 of your sentence for purposes of completing a particular
14 outstanding investigation, which was then taking place?
15 A I was not aware of that letter, sir, no.
16 Q And were you aware of the fact that in that letter
17 the Assistant United States Attorney asked the judge to
18 adjourn the sentence so that the full nature and extent of
19 your cooperation could be known to the judge prior to you
20 being sentenced?
21 A No, I was not aware of that, sir.
22 Q Now, the investigation you were speaking about would
23 have been this investigation; isn't that right? 24 A I believe so, sir. 25 Q Okay.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5534 Watstein-recross/Nelson
1 Y
ou had been cooperating with the government with
2 December 8th, 1992, at least with respect to Who's Who
3 Worldwide when you made these recordings; is that right?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q And am I correct that as you testified, nobody was
6 arrested in '93, and nobody was arrested in '94; is that
7 right?
8 A To the best of my knowledge, that's correct, sir.
9 Q And I believe you previously testified that there
10 came a time during the late spring or early summer of 1994
11 that you apprised Inspector Biegelman that in fact the
12 Reed investigation had concluded favorably on behalf of
13 Reed, and unfavorably against Who's Who Worldwide; is that
14 correct?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q And within 60 days of that you then became a
17 cooperating witness in a dormant investigation which then
18 preceded forward; is that correct?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q Isn't i
t a fact that the next activity that you had
21 commenced in August of 1995, when you made -- excuse me,
22 August of 1994, when you started making recordings and
23 posing as a customer, calling up Who's Who Worldwide? 24 A You are referring to the investigation of Who's Who 25 Worldwide only?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5535 Watstein-recross/Nelson
1 Q That's correct.
2 A Yes, sir, that's correct.
3 Q And between April of 1993, when you made your last
4 telephone call into Who's Who Worldwide and August of
5 1994, you personally did not participate in investigations
6 of Who's Who Worldwide; isn't that correct?
7 A Other than submitting letters to Inspector Biegelman
8 that I received in my home, I had no other active
9 investigation to the best of my recollection -- active
10 participation to the best of my reco
llection.
11 MR. NELSON: Thank you, no further questions.
12 MR. JENKS: I have a few questions, your Honor.
13
14 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
15 BY MR. JENKS:
16 Q Mr. Watstein, you recall Mr. White showing you
17 Government's Exhibit 1601 through 1606 this morning?
18 A Yes.
19 Q On his redirect examination?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q All right.
22 Taking a look first at Government's Exhibit 1605,
23 this is addressed to you in Fort Lauderdale; is that 24 correct? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5536 Watstein-recross/Jenks
1 Q And on that letter it says Mr. Steven West; is that
2 correct?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q Besides the name West, besides the name Watstein, and
5 besides the name Johnson, and I am not talking about the
6 61 names you assumed when you made these tapes, hav
e you
7 ever used any other names in your life?
8 A Not to the best of my recollection. It is possible,
9 but not to the best of my recollection.
10 Q It is possible you may have used another name besides
11 Johnson, West or Watstein?
12 A It is possible, on the best of my recollection.
13 Q Who is West Adams Christopher?
14 A That was a corporation, West Adams Christopher was a
15 corporation.
16 Q And was it formed in Florida or formed in New York?
17 A My recollection is that it was formed in New York in
18 either 1990 or 1991.
19 Q And what did that corporation do?
20 A It was engaged in doing consulting.
21 Q Consulting and direct mail marketing?
22 A In a broad array of things, that was one of them,
23 yes, sir. 24 Q How many corporations, all told, would you say you 25 had in 1990, 1991?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5537 Watstein-recross/Jenks
1 A Three or four.
2 Q And you were the president of those corporations, or
3 someone else was the president of those corporations; is
4 that correct?
5 A In some cases I was the president, in other cases
6 other people were.
7 Q Taking a look first at 1605, it is addressed to you
8 at a Fort Lauderdale address; is that correct?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q It says, if you wish to be nominated for inclusion in
11 the registry, we do need you to update the information
12 about your current career position and business expertise;
13 is that correct?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q And it also says at the bottom here, there is a PS,
16 candidates are nominated by one or more of the established
17 members or by the office of public affairs; is that
18 correct?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q And tha
t's what you had received on Who's Who
21 Worldwide stationery dated December 5th, 1994; is that
22 correct?
23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q And it doesn't say you were nominated by another 25 member?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5538 Watstein-recross/Jenks
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q It says if you wish to be nominated in this letter?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Taking a look at Government's Exhibit 1602 in
5 evidence, it is a letter also to you; am I correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And that is -- the date of that letter is March 31st,
8 1994?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q And it is on Who's Who Worldwide stationery?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Does it say also if you wish to be nominated for
13 inclusion in the registry, we need to update the
14 information pertaining to your current career position,
15 business expertise and other da
ta on the enclosed form.
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q Taking a look at Government's Exhibit 1603 -- before
18 we get to 1603, 1602 at the bottom indicates there is no
19 cost or obligation for qualified individuals to be listed
20 in Who's Who Registry; is that correct?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q All right.
23 Take a look at 1603 in evidence, and that's dated 24 August of 1994; is that correct? 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5539 Watstein-recross/Jenks
1 Q And that is a letter that you received on Who's Who
2 Worldwide stationery; is that correct?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q And it has the same language. If you wish to be
5 nominated for inclusion in the registry; is that correct?
6 A That portion of the language is identical, sir, yes.
7 Q As in the first two exhibits I showed you, if you
8 wish
to be nominated?
9 A That paragraph, yes, sir.
10 Q And once again, this says there is no cost or
11 obligation; am I correct?
12 A In a different word, different words, yes, sir.
13 Q All right.
14 Let's take a look at 1604.
15 This is also addressed to you; is that correct?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q And this is November of 1994?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q And it says, you were recently nominated by our
20 editors for inclusion in Sterling Who's Who directory,
21 executive edition; is that correct? That's the first
22 paragraph?
23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q All right. 25 And it says by our editors, you were nominated by
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5540 Watstein-recross/Jenks
1 our editors; is that correct?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q Speaking -- you are really good with words.
4 Did you ever
look the word "nominated" up in the
5 dictionary?
6 A A long time ago.
7 Q Tell me what it says, if you recall?
8 A I don't have a recollection.
9 Q If I told you that when you look for the words
10 "nominated" it means selected, chosen or appointed, would
11 that refresh your recollection?
12 A I believe that's one of the many definitions.
13 Q In the dictionary, correct?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q Select or chosen, right? In other words, "nominated"
16 is not a word that came down from the heavens someplace,
17 is it?
18 A No, sir.
19 Q This says you were recently nominated by our editors;
20 is that correct?
21 A That's what it says.
22 Q So, if a synonym of nominated was "selected" you
23 could read this to mean that you were recently selected by 24 our editors, or recently chosen by our editors, or you 25 were recently appoi
nted by our editors, they are all
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5541 Watstein-recross/Jenks
1 interchangeable, right?
2 A In that context, sir.
3 Q And you would agree with me that the words "nominate"
4 at least for the purposes of this, of these letters could
5 have numerate meetings?
6 A Many definitions, yes.
7 Q It is not a word that just came down from the
8 heavens, like I said, from god, is that right?
9 A It doesn't have a single definition, if that's what
10 you mean.
11 Q Okay.
12 Let's take a look at a Sterling Who's Who,
13 Government's Exhibit 1606, dated January 9th, 1995. Am I
14 correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And this is to Steve Johnson?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Is that correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And you told us Steve Johnson was a name you used to
21 get magazine s
ubscriptions; is that right?
22 A To purchase magazine subscriptions, yes.
23 Q And you were recently nominated for possible 24 inclusion in Sterling Who's Who. Nominations are 25 submitted by one or more of the established members and by
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5542 Watstein-recross/Jenks
1 the editors; that's in that letter; is that right?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q The language, and by the editors, is in 1606 which
4 Mr. White showed you?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q And finally 1601, the earlier letter, it is addressed
7 to you, Mr. S. West; is that correct?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q And Government's Exhibit 1601 in evidence, says that
10 you were recently nominated for possible inclusion in the
11 Who's Who Registry of global business leaders; is that
12 correct?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q And it doesn't say you w
ere nominated by another
15 member, does it?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q It doesn't mention anything about being nominated by
18 someone who knew you; am I correct?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q Mr. West, I want to direct your attention -- you
21 recall Mr. White had done two series of redirect
22 examination, one last week and one this morning; is that
23 right? 24 A Very briefly last week, yes. 25 Q Well, very briefly last week, he asked you, with what
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5543 Watstein-recross/Jenks
1 instructions you had received from Biegelman and Leonard;
2 is that correct?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q And I believe you said that your two instructions
5 were to be honest and accurate; is that what you said?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q And you also said that you had received credit,
8 regardless of the outco
me?
9 A From Biegelman, yes.
10 Q You say it is directly from Biegelman; is that right?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And did you not understand your role when you made
13 these tapes was to get as much incriminating evidence on
14 these tapes as you possibly could?
15 A No, sir.
16 Q You are telling me if you got nothing on these 61
17 tapes, you would have gotten the same credit than if you
18 had gotten people to say things by your language into
19 trying to trick them into something?
20 A I can't answer that with a yes or no, sir.
21 Q Well, you have no trouble answering any of the
22 government's questions, do you? I am not speaking Spanish
23 to you, am I? 24 MR. WHITE: Objection. 25 A Sir, if you like --
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5544 Watstein-recross/Jenks
1 THE COURT: Sustained.
2 Q You told us you turned over all the tapes; is that
3 correct?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q Every single tape you made, correct?
6 A Without exception.
7 Q You turned them over because you had to turn them
8 over; is that right?
9 A Certainly.
10 Q You tell me. If the government found out you
11 withheld a tape that you made, what would they have done
12 to your agreement?
13 A They might have violated my agreement.
14 Q They would have torn it up, right?
15 A Possibly.
16 Q The agreement actually says that you agree to furnish
17 to the office all documents and other material relevant to
18 the investigation, correct?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q And you know that it also says in that agreement that
21 if you don't do that, and you violated any provision of
22 the agreement, the government can tear it up and you will
23 not be released fr
om your plea of guilty? 24 A Absolutely. 25 Q So that's the real reason you turned over all the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5545 Watstein-recross/Jenks
1 tapes; is that correct?
2 A No, sir.
3 Q You knew if Biegelman had found out you didn't give
4 him one tape that this agreement was in jeopardy; is that
5 correct?
6 A I think it is an accurate statement.
7 Q All right.
8 Now, Mr. White got up here and he showed you last
9 week 3500-22-I, the 5K letter you received from the
10 government; do you recall that?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And do you recall Mr. White saying that the
13 government advised the Court of your long term criminal
14 conduct; is that correct?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q Do you recall Mr. White saying that the government
17 didn't recommend any sentence to the Court? Do yo
u recall
18 that?
19 A Yes, sir, that is correct.
20 Q Isn't it a fact that the government didn't recommend
21 in the sentence that you should be incarcerated?
22 A A correct statement.
23 Q Nobody stood up from the United States government and 24 said that for all the crimes you committed you should go 25 to jail, did they?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5546 Watstein-recross/Jenks
1 A An accurate statement.
2 Q It is almost accurate to say at the sentence the
3 government is acting as your lawyer, pretty much as they
4 are acting as your lawyer here today, isn't it?
5 MR. WHITE: Objection.
6 THE COURT: Sustained.
7 Q At the sentence, you were relying on the government;
8 is that correct?
9 A No, sir.
10 Q You were not?
11 A They were a contributing fact. I wasn't relying on
12 the government.
13 Q They were on your team and you were on their team; is
14 that correct?
15 A No, sir.
16 Q Did they ask Judge Mishler to sentence you to any
17 period of incarceration behind bars?
18 A No, sir.
19 Q Do you think -- let me ask you this question: Do you
20 think you should have received a sentence of
21 incarcerations for the crimes that you committed?
22 A No, sir.
23 MR. WHITE: Objection. 24 THE COURT: Sustained. 25 Strike out the answer.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5547 Watstein-recross/Jenks
1 Q Let's talk about some questions Mr. White asked you
2 today, and I want to first talk to you briefly about the
3 issues of the refunds.
4 You said you never refused in total to give
5 refunds; is that right?
6 A In substance I said that, right.
7 Q Di
d you -- withdrawn.
8 Did you instruct employees of yours to tell
9 people looking for refunds that your company was on
10 strike?
11 A No, sir.
12 Q And that the people were on strike?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q Did you see that in the complaint, the language?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q Is it your testimony that that testimony is not true?
17 A Absolutely not true.
18 Q You had nothing to do with telling people who were
19 looking for refunds that your company was on strike?
20 A Absolutely nothing.
21 Q Were you aware that employees of yours were telling
22 people looking for refunds that your company was on
23 strike? 24 A Not until I saw that in the complaint, sir. 25 Q And that is something as far as you are concerned is
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5548 Watstein-recross/Jenks
1 not true?
2 A To the best of my knowledge, yes, sir.
3 Q But it is in the complaint; is that right?
4 A It certainly is in the complaint.
5 Q Are you aware that your employees were telling people
6 looking for refunds that your company was on vacation?
7 A I never heard that one, sir.
8 Q Is that in the complaint?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q And is that --
11 A No, sir.
12 Q And that's something foreign to you also that you
13 have no knowledge of?
14 A As opposed to those two finite points, yes, sir.
15 Q All right.
16 With respect to this false statement, you created
17 an entity of American Sales Marketing Institute; is that
18 right?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q When you created that corporation, sir, you intended
21 to make a profit with that business, am I right?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q But nevertheless, even though you intended to make a
24 profit with the business, you filed a not for profit 25 statement; is that correct?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5549 Watstein-recross/Jenks
1 A I can't answer that with a yes or no.
2 Q Well, you said, when Mr. White was questioning you,
3 that you didn't complete all of the backup paperwork; is
4 that correct?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q But you did file an application to have that
7 corporation recognized as a not for profit corporation; is
8 that correct?
9 A That is correct.
10 Q That was not the truth when you formed the
11 corporation, right?
12 A It was not totally the truth, no, sir.
13 Q So, you know, when you pled guilty to that, you were
14 in fact guilty of doing that, right?
15 A Absolutely.
16 Q You didn't plead guilty to something you didn't do,
17 right?
18 A You
are correct, sir.
19 Q In fact, in any of these counts, in the information
20 that is in there, you didn't plead guilty to anything you
21 didn't do, right?
22 A An accurate statement, sir.
23 Q Even though there may be no language in there 24 concerning the intentional non-delivery of products, you 25 understood when you took a plea to mail fraud and
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5550 Watstein-recross/Jenks
1 conspiracy to commit mail fraud, it encompassed what was
2 in the complaint, correct?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q You didn't understand that?
5 A No, sir.
6 Q That the information that was drafted and put before
7 the judge in the case was in fact a summary or a broken
8 down document from the information contained in the
9 complaint?
10 A That was not my understanding, sir.
11 Q Did it say in t
he complaint that you intentionally
12 non-delivered products to customers?
13 A I believe it said that in the complaint.
14 Q Is that not true also?
15 A I can't answer that with a yes or no, sir.
16 Q It was not a hundred percent accurate?
17 A That's correct, sir.
18 Q Let's talk about the issue of health insurance.
19 Mr. White raised this once again on redirect.
20 You did have an employee who was in the hospital,
21 who was denied payment for his hospitalization; is that
22 correct?
23 A He stated that, sir, yes. 24 Q Do you have any information to state otherwise? 25 A I have no information one way or another, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5551 Watstein-recross/Jenks
1 Q Did you represent to employees of yours that they in
2 fact had health insurance when they in fact didn't?
3 A No, sir
.
4 Q This employee didn't have it?
5 A As I indicated it was cancelled, sir.
6 Q For nonpayment of the premium?
7 A Yes.
8 Q The company and you failed to pay the premium?
9 A The company.
10 Q The company was you; is that right?
11 A No, sir.
12 Q You were the head of the company?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q And concerning your violation of probation, Mr. White
15 asked you what your understanding was as to who could
16 violate your probation; is that correct?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q And I think you testified that the probation
19 department would have to initiate it and Judge Mishler
20 would have to approve it; is that right?
21 A That's my understanding of the process, not as an
22 attorney, sir.
23 Q Do you understand it the government, if they want, 24 could initiate it with the probation department? 25 A I don't have t
hat understanding, but if you say so it
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5552 Watstein-recross/Jenks
1 is probably correct, sir.
2 Q Do you believe that if you don't testify here
3 according to the way the government wants you to testify
4 that they could initiate a violation of your probation?
5 A Absolutely not.
6 Q You don't believe so?
7 A For not testifying the way they want me to testify?
8 Q That's right.
9 A Absolutely not.
10 Q If you said that the people here were not trying to
11 intentionally defraud anyone, and Who's Who Worldwide was
12 not trying to defraud anyone, do you think the government
13 would not violate your probation?
14 MR. WHITE: Objection.
15 THE COURT: Sustained.
16 Q Mr. West, do you understand the government has the
17 power to violate your probation if they so choose?
18 A Yes, the government has that, yes.
19 Q They could go to the probation department; is that
20 correct?
21 A You said that before, yes.
22 Q Do you agree with that? It is not what I say, sir.
23 A I am not an attorney. I had an awareness that there 24 was a possibility. 25 Q Let me ask you this -- withdrawn.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5553 Watstein-recross/Jenks
1 How did you get here today?
2 A By car.
3 Q By the limousine?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q Is that the big black limousine out in the parking
6 lot over there?
7 A No, sir.
8 Q It is not?
9 A Not in the parking lot, sir.
10 Q Did you have a black limousine today?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q That's not your limousine?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q It is someone else's; is that correct?
15 A Yes, sir.
1
6 Q And I believe you told us on redirect that you
17 exchanged a business plan for limousine service?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Who did you exchange a business plan with?
20 A SCF Limousines.
21 Q What does he do?
22 A Own a limousine company.
23 Q Out on Long Island? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q SCF Limousines?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5554 Watstein-recross/Jenks
1 A Yes.
2 Q What business plan did you give to SCF Limousines?
3 A It is called a U-7 Scor, S C O R, business plan.
4 Q Did you receive any monetary compensation from them?
5 A No, sir.
6 Q Do you drive this limousine yourself?
7 A No, sir.
8 Q Someone drives it for you?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Whenever you are in New York you have free access to
11 the use of a limousine?
12 A No, sir.
13 Q You have access to th
e use of a limousine?
14 A To a pre constructed -- a pre contrived amount of
15 money, sir.
16 Q How much money?
17 A Approximately six or seven thousand dollars.
18 Q You are going to declare it on your taxes, the use of
19 the limousine?
20 A You bet.
21 Q I hope so.
22 A All right.
23 MR. JENKS: No further questions, your Honor. 24 Can I ask one more? They showed me something, 25 since it is on the line I asked about, I will finish.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5555 Watstein-recross/Jenks
1 THE COURT: Go ahead.
2 Q I will ask you to take a look at the Webster's New
3 World Dictionary, and let's take a look, you and me, at
4 the term "nominated" okay?
5 Would you agree that one of the many definitions
6 in there is to propose as a candidate for an award or
7 honor?
8 A
You are reading it, yes.
9 Q From the highlighted text?
10 A It seems to be that. I can't quite read it. I am
11 sure what you are saying is accurate.
12 MR. JENKS: Thank you.
13 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
14 MR. JENKS: Nothing further, your Honor.
15
16 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
17 BY MR. SCHOER:
18 Q Mr. Watstein, good afternoon.
19 A Good afternoon.
20 Q Through your adult life you have been involved in
21 sales; is that fair to say?
22 A A substantial portion of time, yes, sir.
23 Q And you have been involved in direct marketing sales, 24 I think you talked about that; is that correct? 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5556 Watstein-recross/Schoer
1 Q And you have been involved in telemarketing sales; is
2 that correct to say?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q Any other typ
e of sales you have been involved in?
5 A A concept called consultative selling.
6 Q Is that what you do now?
7 A Partially.
8 Q And you not only have done that during the course of
9 your adult life, but I assume that you have taken courses
10 relating to sales; is that correct?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Not only that, but you have written some books
13 relating to sales; isn't that fair to say?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q And you have done some consulting relating to sales;
16 isn't that right?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q And on the tape we just heard, you used the phrase,
19 salesmanship is salesmanship; isn't that so?
20 A I don't quite recall the phrase, if I said it, I said
21 it.
22 Q We heard about it ten minutes ago; is that right?
23 A I guess so. 24 Q We also heard in the course of your examination over 25 the last several days, you u
sed the word "puffing"; is
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5557 Watstein-recross/Schoer
1 that right?
2 A I believe I used it or one of the attorneys used it,
3 sir.
4 Q All right.
5 Puffing is something that is used in describing
6 sales, isn't that so?
7 A It is one adjective, sir.
8 Q All right.
9 And that means that when you go to sell a
10 product, you accentuate the positive and sort of ignore
11 the negative; is that right, sir?
12 A Not quite, sir, no.
13 Q It means you put out your best face for your product;
14 is that fair to say?
15 A That is a more accurate statement.
16 Q Okay.
17 And I think during the course of your examination
18 you used the phrase "puffing the drop," do you remember
19 using that?
20 A No, sir, it was not my phrase.
21 Q You never
used that phrase?
22 A No, sir.
23 Q All right. 24 You never used that phrase? 25 A No, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5558 Watstein-recross/Schoer
1 Q Now, puffing has been part of salesmanship for a long
2 time; is that fair to say?
3 A As you defined it, yes, sir.
4 Q The Romans had a phrase for being aware of puffing on
5 the part of a salesman, right, caveat emptor, did you ever
6 hear that phrase?
7 A It doesn't mean that, sir.
8 Q It means buyer beware?
9 A It has nothing to do with puffing --
10 Q It means let the buyer beware; is that right?
11 A Absolutely.
12 MR. GEDULDIG: Can the witness speak louder,
13 please.
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q And it had to do with buyers and sellers of products;
16 is that so?
17 A No, sir -- yes.
18 Q And it had to
do with salesmanship?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q It had to do with the fact that a buyer should be
21 aware and beware of salesmanships; isn't that so?
22 A No, sir.
23 Q And is it fair to say based on your experience it's 24 an every day occurrence that salespeople puff? 25 A No, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5559 Watstein-recross/Schoer
1 Q You don't believe it is an every day occurrence that
2 salespeople accentuate or put on the best face with
3 respect to their product?
4 A It happens quite regularly, not an every day
5 occurrence.
6 Q Would you say it is an every day occurrence with
7 respect to advertising?
8 A No, sir.
9 Q You don't believe that companies, major companies
10 that advertise, puff?
11 A It is a connotation of the word "puff" that you are
12 not using, sir.
13 Q In the way we define "puff" put on the best face with
14 respect to their product?
15 A If you are saying it only that way, if that's your
16 definition, it is accurate in general.
17 Q Well, do you believe that, for example, a Cadillac is
18 an oasis of comfort and serenity?
19 A I believe it fits your definition of puffing.
20 Q It is puffing, right? So when Cadillac puts in an
21 advertisement that the interior of its product is an oasis
22 of comfort and serenity, that's puffing, right?
23 A As you defined it, sir. 24 Q Do you believe as a consumer, as a person who might 25 purchase a Cadillac, that you believe that?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5560 Watstein-recross/Schoer
1 A I think it is colorful language in advertising as
2 opposed to puffing.
3 Q It is colorful language in advertising, right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And the buyer must beware; is that right?
6 A Absolutely not related to your former statement.
7 Q And how about an ad from Lincoln. To hear how quiet
8 it is, listen to this ad, right (indicating).
9 Do you think that buyers believe that?
10 A I think it is colorful language.
11 Q It is puffing, right, puffery?
12 A No, sir.
13 Q It is not?
14 A No, sir.
15 Q How about a Firebird Pontiac, to launch you into
16 another dimension, mind bending acceleration, so strap on
17 a Trans-Am and step into the future.
18 Do you think that buyers really believe that?
19 A I would trust not.
20 Q It is puffery, right?
21 A That one is puffery, yes, sir.
22 Q The buyer beware, right?
23 A Not related to your statements, sir. 24 Q And sometimes advertising and companies not only use 25 that kind of puffery, but they use
the kind of puffery
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5561 Watstein-recross/Schoer
1 where they appeal to your ego, right?
2 A It is an appeal, yes.
3 Q When Patek Philippe has an advertisement that says
4 this watch goes beyond measuring hours, right? Even the
5 simple form of owning one can add nothing to your day; is
6 that right?
7 A I don't think so.
8 Q Do you think Patek Philippe is any different from by
9 50 dollar Seiko in keeping time?
10 A In keeping time.
11 MR. SCHOER: I don't know how to say it, I can't
12 even afford one.
13 A Repeat the question, sir.
14 Q I don't know the last question, what it was.
15 It is not any better in keeping time?
16 A In that function, no, sir.
17 Q That's the function you purchase a watch for; is that
18 right?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q S
ometimes you purchase it for your ego?
21 A For prestige of -- if it is valid.
22 Q You purchase it for its validity?
23 A If it is valid. 24 Q If it is valid? 25 A Yes.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5562 Watstein-recross/Schoer
1 Q And people purchase other things for prestige?
2 A If it is valid.
3 Q Like Armani suits?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Or Donna Karen clothes?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q And it is puffery to advertise that, would you say?
8 A Not if it is valid, to be accurate.
9 Q Do you think Paul Stuart, when they say, that's why,
10 like this president and CEO of one of the New York's most
11 prestigious banks, they are customers of ours, do you
12 think that that is puffery?
13 A I think it is an accurate statement, sir.
14 Q Do you think that a suit such as this dynamic bead
15 s
tripe projects a confidence equal to your own, impression
16 as easily and natural as you do? Doesn't that appeal to
17 someone's ego? That's why they go out and buy this?
18 A That's a fair statement about that sentence.
19 Q It is just a piece of cloth like any other suit,
20 right?
21 A No, sir.
22 Q It is not puffery?
23 A It is various lines, sir, of puffery, exaggeration, 24 lying. 25 Q It is puffery?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5563 Watstein-recross/Schoer
1 A I believe it is a somewhat accurate statement.
2 Q People who buy Paul Stuart suits or any suit, when
3 they go and read this advertisement, that is not why they
4 are buying the suit, because the advertisement says it
5 projects a confidence equal to your own, is it?
6 A It might be, sir.
7 Q And the government does the same thing, i
sn't that
8 fair to say? When they advertise, they puff as well. The
9 Army, be the best that you can be.
10 Do you honestly believe that joining the Army
11 makes you the best that you can be?
12 A Possibly.
13 Q It possibly could, provides you with an opportunity,
14 right?
15 A Uh-huh.
16 Q But it doesn't necessarily mean you can be the best
17 that you can be?
18 A I don't think the statement means that as a guaranty.
19 Q Or in four years you won't recognize yourself if you
20 join the United States armed forces? Do you think people
21 really believe that?
22 A Not that particular statement.
23 Q It is puffery. It is in big lines, it is puffery? 24 A Puffery, but not lying. 25 Q The government puffs on their advertisement, right?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5564 Watstein-recross/Schoer
1 When was the last time you felt like you
2 belonged, the Air National Guard join the Air National
3 Guard. Give us two weeks and we will give you a chance to
4 travel to exotic places. That's what it says in these
5 ads?
6 A That's an accurate statement, sir.
7 Q It is not puffery?
8 A I don't think that one is.
9 Q Do you think everyone who joins the Air National
10 Guard gets to travel to exotic places?
11 A If you read the phrase back, it doesn't say that.
12 Q It says we will give you chance to travel to exotic
13 locations around the world?
14 A We will give you the chance to, it says.
15 Q Do you think everybody who joins the Air National
16 Guard gets the chance to travel to exotic place?
17 A A chance, yes, sir.
18 Q It is puffery, isn't it?
19 A Not that particular sentence, sir.
20 Q In the Air Guard you will learn wh
at it is like to be
21 a member of a winning team?
22 A It sounds like an accurate statement to me.
23 Q Have you been in the Air Guard? 24 A No, sir. 25 Q You spent weekends in the Air National Guard, and you
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5565 Watstein-recross/Schoer
1 become a part of a winning national team by spending one
2 weekend a month? It is puffery, be the best that you can
3 be. It is puffery, right?
4 A Sir, as I previously testified, some of the
5 statements are accurate, some are puffery. It depends on
6 who is making the statement.
7 Q Salesmanship is salesmanship, right?
8 A Salesmanship is not lying, sir.
9 Q Those not lies. They are puffs?
10 A The ones you read, sir, fit in that category, yes.
11 Q They fit into lies?
12 A No, fit into the category of accurate statements or
13 puffs.
14 Q Puffs, right?
15 A Not all of them, sir.
16 Q That's all it is, is a lot of puffery; is that right?
17 A No, sir.
18 Q That's what makes sales?
19 A Not all the time, sir.
20 Q And that's why we say, caveat emptor, let the buyer
21 beware, buyers should ask questions, buyers should be
22 aware, they should be beware, right?
23 A Not all the time, sir. 24 MR. SCHOER: That's all. 25 THE COURT: Anything else?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5566 Watstein-recross/Schoer
1 MR. GEDULDIG: I have a few questions.
2
3 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. GEDULDIG:
5 Q Mr. Watstein, I believe you were answering some
6 questions for Mr. Trabulus a little while ago, and in
7 response to his question which were words to the effect,
8 and I think Mr. Trabulus asked you, if you c
an pass --
9 anyone could pass a lie detector test if they took the
10 appropriate drugs, and you said that wasn't accurate; do
11 you remember that?
12 A To the best of my knowledge, that's correct, sir.
13 Q And what led you to make that statement?
14 A My discussion of the polygraph operator.
15 Q You also said you are not an expert; is that
16 correct?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q You were trying to find out if you were -- if you
19 could take drugs to take a lie detector test?
20 A Not the subject of the conversation.
21 Q You spoke to the polygraph operator to take that?
22 A He spoke to me about it.
23 Q The polygraph operator asked you if you took any 24 drugs? 25 A One of the questions under the polygraph.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5567 Watstein-recross/Geduldig
1 Q You told him you had
or had not?
2 A Had not.
3 Q Did you ask him if you could take any drugs to pass
4 the test?
5 A Subsequently to the conversation, I asked him why his
6 questions was pointed that way, and he informed me why he
7 asked the question.
8 Q Who paid for the purposes of taking the polygraph
9 test?
10 A I believe the insurance company did. I didn't.
11 Q You didn't, and it wasn't the government?
12 A Not that I know of, sir.
13 Q The insurance company told you you had to take the
14 test?
15 A No. I volunteered for it.
16 Q Who suggested you take the test?
17 A I did, sir.
18 Q Was that the first and only time you ever took a
19 polygraph test?
20 A The second time, sir.
21 Q The second test, was it related to the same
22 incidents?
23 A No, sir. 24 Q Was it years apart? 25 A 20 years apart, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5568 Watstein-recross/Geduldig
1 Q Who told you to take the first polygraph test 20
2 years ago?
3 A I volunteered to take it.
4 Q Who told you to take it? Suggested to take it?
5 A I suggested I take it.
6 Q To who?
7 A To the state police of the state of Michigan.
8 Q And that wouldn't have had anything to do with the
9 fire of the store that you were managing?
10 A Of course, it did, sir.
11 Q Okay.
12 Now, you said in some questions posed that -- to
13 Mr. White, when you started the Who's Who operation, you
14 had honest intentions?
15 A As relating to 1987 and early 1988, yes.
16 Q It is not exactly accurate?
17 A I think it is very accurate.
18 Q Would you talk louder?
19 A I think it is very accurate, sir.
20 Q When you started the company
, who was the president?
21 I didn't hear you?
22 A I am trying to think of an answer to your question,
23 sir. 24 Q It is your company. 25 A I am not sure when my wife was made the president.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5569 Watstein-recross/Geduldig
1 She was the president of the company.
2 Q Was there ever a time you were the president of the
3 company?
4 A Yes.
5 Q For how long?
6 A For the last two years.
7 Q Go back to '88, '89, in the beginning was your wife
8 the president of the company?
9 A I believe so, yes.
10 Q And that was done for a particular reason?
11 A As it relates to a non-Who's Who matter, yes, sir.
12 Q And you were using -- withdrawn.
13 You had a tax liability at that time, did you
14 not?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q And you were using Who's Who
as a vehicle to earn
17 money without having to report it to the IRS, right?
18 A It is not a quite accurate statement, sir.
19 Q Well, I know you like the phrase, the beneficial
20 use. You had the beneficial use of income that your wife
21 was getting for doing absolutely nothing; is that right?
22 A It is a substantial accurate statement, yes, sir.
23 Q And that income that you had the beneficial use of 24 was generated by Who's Who, your Who's Who; is that right? 25 A I can't answer that with a yes or no, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5570 Watstein-recross/Geduldig
1 Q Was she earning a salary, or an income from Who's Who
2 as president?
3 A Partially, yes, sir.
4 Q And you had the beneficial use of that salary?
5 A Absolutely.
6 Q And it was substantially more than the income you
7 were technicall
y showing for the work you were doing for
8 the company, right?
9 A A totally accurate statement, yes, sir.
10 Q And so, you were hiding income from the IRS that you
11 had the beneficial use of?
12 A That's what I pled guilty to, yes, sir.
13 Q So, am I not correct in saying that you were using
14 Who's Who among other things, as a vehicle to hide income
15 from the IRS?
16 A In the context that you put it in, sir, it might be
17 accurate.
18 Q And that's a crime, isn't it?
19 A I pled guilty to that, sir.
20 Q When you started Who's Who, it was not with the best
21 of intentions, was it?
22 A Your question is relevant to the operations of the
23 company, not my tax liability, sir. 24 Q I am talking about your use of Who's Who. That's 25 what I am talking about?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5571
Watstein-recross/Geduldig
1 A Now that you phrase it that way, you are absolutely
2 correct, sir.
3 Q You didn't have those intentions when you started up
4 Who's Who?
5 A In that finite statement, you are correct, sir.
6 Q When Mr. White said to you, and you said you had the
7 best of intentions in 1988, so, in some small finite area,
8 the answers you gave to Mr. White was not accurate, was
9 it?
10 A No, sir, it is not accurate.
11 Q You are a very bright man, aren't you? Aren't you?
12 A I think I am intelligent, yes, sir.
13 Q I think you think you are very bright, don't you?
14 You don't have to be modest with us, Mr. Watstein.
15 MR. WHITE: Objection.
16 THE COURT: Sustained.
17 Q In any event --
18 THE COURT: Mr. Geduldig, would you get to the
19 point?
20 MR. GEDULDIG: I am getting there very quickly,
21 Ju
dge.
22 Q Mrs. Watstein was the president of this company; is
23 that right? 24 A Mrs. West. 25 Q Did you ever change your name?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5572 Watstein-recross/Geduldig
1 A No, sir.
2 Q You took a plea under the name of Watstein?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q She married you?
5 A As West.
6 Q We will call it West-Watstein, not to mix up the
7 parties, if it is all right.
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q In any event, she was the president of this company
10 for at least several years; is that right?
11 A Yes, sir, a year and a half, or two years, yes, sir.
12 Q And she was never indicted or charged with any of the
13 criminal activities involving your Who's Who; is that
14 right?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q And there is a reason for that, isn't there?
17 A Yes.
18 Q An
d what was that reason?
19 A She had no knowledge or intent.
20 Q Right. You didn't tell her about the criminal
21 activities that you were involved with; is that right?
22 A I was fully responsible. Absolutely right, sir.
23 Q So, she was ignorant of what you were doing? 24 A Totally correct. 25 Q You did not tell her, did you?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5573 Watstein-recross/Geduldig
1 A Correct.
2 Q So she did not know and, therefore, was not
3 responsible for things you did not -- she did not know
4 about, right?
5 A Repeat the question, please.
6 Q She is not responsible for things she did not know
7 about?
8 A She is not responsible, yes, that's an accurate
9 statement.
10 Q Similarly, Annette Haley, a salesperson at Who's Who
11 Worldwide could not be responsible for things she co
uld
12 not know about; is that correct, or fair to say?
13 MR. WHITE: Objection.
14 THE COURT: Sustained.
15 Q Do you know if Annette Haley was told about all the
16 policy and operations going on at Who's Who Worldwide?
17 MR. WHITE: Objection.
18 THE COURT: Sustained.
19 Q I would like to ask you a few questions about this
20 Blue Cross thing.
21 You said there was a failure to pay a premium; is
22 that right?
23 A Yes, sir, correct. 24 Q And am I correct that the failure to pay a premium 25 doesn't automatically within a day or two or three result
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5574 Watstein-recross/Geduldig
1 in the cancellation of an insurance policy?
2 A Normally correct, sir.
3 Q Am I correct in saying that usually the insurance
4 company gives you thirty days or thereabouts to make t
he
5 payment, even if it is past due?
6 A No, sir, it is not accurate.
7 Q How many days was that Blue Cross Blue Shield policy
8 that was cancelled, how many days late were you in making
9 the payment?
10 A I can't answer that with a yes or no, sir.
11 Q I think you also testified --
12 THE COURT: That doesn't call for a yes or no.
13 THE WITNESS: I am sorry.
14 It is difficult, your Honor, to answer the
15 question.
16 THE COURT: You can say you can't answer the
17 question. But the question is how many days.
18 THE WITNESS: I am sorry.
19 Q All right, you got the right answers now?
20 In any event, I think you also testified that
21 somebody failed to make the payment?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q Who was that? 24 A The bookkeeper. 25 Q And who was that?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5575 Watstein-recross/Geduldig
1 A Her name was Roberta.
2 Q Roberta what?
3 A I don't remember her last name, sir.
4 Q How much was the payment, how much was the premium
5 due?
6 A I don't have a recollection, I guess a couple of
7 thousands dollars.
8 Q And it is your testimony that as much as thirty days
9 had not passed from the day the premium was due until you
10 ran down with a check to Blue Cross Blue Shield?
11 A Either 21 or thirty days, sir.
12 Q It was past due by 21 days or more?
13 A I can't answer that with a yes or no, sir.
14 Q Okay.
15 Can you tell me whether or not the employees had
16 the cost of health insurance deducted from their pay?
17 A Yes, sir, those who participated in the program.
18 Q So, you were late in making a payment, which was not
19 coming out of your pocket, it was paid out of -- by the
20 employees?
21 A Actually the payment was made on a timely basis, Blue
22 Cross did not acknowledge receiving the check.
23 Q And then you went down there; is that right? 24 A No. We sent a messenger with a check when they told 25 us it was cancelled.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5576 Watstein-recross/Geduldig
1 Q And it wasn't your fault, it was Roberta's fault?
2 A I take full responsibility, I ran the company, sir.
3 Q But you did say Roberta failed to make a payment?
4 A That is correct.
5 Q And I believe you also testified that you had names
6 on a selection committee; is that right?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q And I think you said it was somebody's fault for not
9 having notified some of the people whom you put on that
10 selection committee?
11 A But I am still responsible, sir. It was my
12
secretary.
13 Q My question was: Did you say that there was somebody
14 who had not notified the people who were named on that
15 selection committee?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q Is that Roberta?
18 A No, sir.
19 Q Who was that?
20 A I think it was Alfie Parthe, P A R T H E, I believe,.
21 Q What you do, Mr. Watstein, you say you will take
22 responsibility, but you blame other people for all of the
23 things that occurred under your watch; is that right? 24 A No, sir. 25 Q And when you talk louder like that, does that mean
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5577 Watstein-recross/Geduldig
1 you are really telling me the truth now?
2 MR. WHITE: Objection.
3 THE COURT: Sustained.
4 Q The fire at your home, there was a million dollar
5 policy on that?
6 A I think it was greater than that, sir.
7 Q It was at least a million dollars?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q And the government took that million; is that right?
10 A They took the value of the land, sir, and the home
11 which aggregated to almost a million dollars.
12 Q Did they get the money from the insurance company?
13 A I don't know if they -- I am sure they got a portion
14 of it, yes, sir.
15 Q You don't know if the money was paid out on that
16 insurance policy?
17 A The first money was paid to the bank who held the
18 mortgage, sir.
19 Q Well, the policy was for a million dollars, I believe
20 you said; is that right?
21 A A little more, I am not sure to tell you the truth.
22 Q You said the cost of the house was $600,000?
23 A The raw cost of the replacement, sir. 24 Q The value of the land was $600,000? 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REP
ORTER
5578 Watstein-recross/Geduldig
1 Q The land was certainly worth as much when you bought
2 it as when the fire occurred?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q It went down in value?
5 A No, sir.
6 Q Up?
7 A Neither.
8 Q It was worth as much as when you bought it?
9 A No, the land was damaged with the debris and other
10 problems from the fire.
11 Q You would have no -- you would have had no problems
12 at all. You would have been eligible to put in a claim
13 for a million dollars if you had no criminal problems with
14 the government, and all you had was this fire at your
15 home, you would have been in line to collect on that
16 million dollar plus policy; is that right?
17 A No, sir.
18 Q You would have had to use some of that money to pay
19 off the mortgage?
20 A There were two mortgages, yes, sir.
21 Q To pay off
the two mortgages?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q And you would have been sitting with the cash left 24 over, right? 25 A If there was cash left over, yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5579 Watstein-recross/Geduldig
1 Q And you would also have had the land?
2 A That's correct, sir.
3 Q So you would have been ahead of the game? You would
4 have been sitting with a piece of property with a
5 foundation laid; is that right?
6 A There would have been no foundation if it burned
7 down, sir.
8 Q I am talking about the concrete.
9 THE COURT: Mr. Geduldig, I am going to interrupt
10 you and terminate this line of questioning now.
11 JUROR NO. 4: Thank you.
12 Q Let me ask you some questions about Jill Barnes.
13 On one occasion, I believe you said October of
14 1994, October 18th, I think, of 1994, you
had a
15 conversation with Jill Barnes?
16 A I believe that's correct, sir.
17 Q And during that course of that conversation, you
18 mentioned to Barnes something about being a deli owner and
19 having one shop and being nothing more than a high school
20 grad at most?
21 A I think so. But I will have to see a copy of the
22 transcript if you want me to comment on it.
23 Q Is that your recollection of the conversation, that 24 it is something with you being a deli owner at that time? 25 A I think so. But there was 61 tapes. I have to see
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5580 Watstein-recross/Geduldig
1 the actual transcript.
2 Q And there came a period of time that the government
3 wrote a 5K letter to Judge Mishler regarding your
4 prospective sentence; is that right?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q And a part of t
he 5K letter they submitted to Judge
7 Mishler, included the complaint and the affidavit signed
8 by Inspector Biegelman; is that right?
9 A The complaint against whom, sir?
10 Q Against Who's Who Worldwide. .
11 A I assume, I didn't see the attachments.
12 Q The attachments was provided to your lawyer?
13 A I assume so.
14 Q And the 5K letter was provided to your lawyers?
15 A That I saw, yes.
16 (Mr. Geduldig confers with Mr. White.)
17 Q Let me show you a portion of the affidavit signed by
18 Inspector Biegelman, page 80.
19 (Handed to the witness.)
20 Q If you would, there are a couple of paragraphs, if
21 you read it to yourself, I will appreciate it?
22 A Which paragraphs are you referring to, sir?
23 Q Jill Barnes. It is designated Jill Barnes. 24 A Okay. 25 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
HARRY RA
PAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5581 Watstein-recross/Geduldig
1 proceedings.)
2 Q Let me ask you to turn to the back of that affidavit,
3 I think the next to the last, or second to the last page.
4 A If you would show me what you mean, sir, thank you.
5 (Counsel approaches the witness stand.)
6 Q You see a line with the name appearing below it of
7 Mr. Biegelman, Martin Biegelman?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q You see a signature on that line?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q You don't recognize the signature; is that right?
12 A No, sir.
13 Q And with regard to the paragraphs 80 that I just
14 showed to you, do you see any reference in there at all to
15 a delicatessen, or delicatessen ownerships, or anything
16 else about delicatessens?
17 A I don't believe he references the particular vocation
18 I use, sir.
19 Q Delicatessen?
20 A I don't see that, no, sir.
21 Q I think you testified earlier on on redirect
22 examination by Mr. White, that in some instances some
23 information led to the exoneration of people? 24 A Some instances, as to other cases? 25 Q Work that you did led to the exoneration of some
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5582 Watstein-recross/Geduldig
1 people?
2 A In other cases, yes, sir.
3 Q It didn't lead to the exoneration of Ms. Barnes?
4 Anything you did, did not lead to the exoneration of
5 Ms. Barnes; is that correct?
6 A I have no knowledge of that.
7 Q Do you know if she was ever indicted?
8 A I don't have any first-hand knowledge of that, sir.
9 Q Now, I would like to read a small section from the
10 transcript of the conversation you had with Annette Haley
11 on November 11th of '94. This is Governme
nt Exhibit
12 1325-A, a very small section?
13 A Is that included in this, sir?
14 Q No.
15 In the middle of page 6.
16 A If you provide me a copy.
17 Q It is a very small section, in the binder right to
18 your left.
19 A What number, sir?
20 Q 1325-A.
21 A Give me a moment, please, sir.
22 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
23 proceedings.) 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q And page 6; about a quarter of the way down.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5583 Watstein-recross/Geduldig
1 A Yes.
2 Q Right after Annette says, yeah, it begins, the
3 attribution is to you, Watstein.
4 So, I am not going to find a delicatessen owner
5 in this thing?
6 Annette, no.
7 Watstein, I see.
8 Annette, no, no, no, no.
9 Watstein, okay.
10 Annette, no. You
won't find. We do have a
11 section where, umm, I don't know if it is in this registry
12 or in another book, that they publish where we do have
13 some sort. But it is nothing like this.
14 Do you see that?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q Do you have an indication there that she is telling
17 you that delicatessen owners in one of their registries
18 are named?
19 A I think it is a pretty unclear phrase, sir.
20 Q You didn't try to elucidate any other information
21 from her after she said those things, did you?
22 A No, sir.
23 Q Now, you say with regard to the 61 tape recorded 24 conversations that you had, you sent a little of the 25 tapes, and I think a little synopsis and a cover sheet of
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5584 Watstein-recross/Geduldig
1 each of the tapes to Mr. Biegelman; is that right?
2 A
Yes, sir.
3 Q And am I also correct in saying that when you made
4 these tapes, the only one present with you -- withdrawn.
5 There was no one present with you when you made
6 these tapes?
7 A No, sir.
8 Q Who was with you?
9 A In one of the tapes Inspector Leonard was with me.
10 Q Which one was that, if you recall?
11 A The first one, I believe.
12 Q And thereafter was one of them ever with you?
13 A There might have been one other tape in which
14 Inspector Leonard was present. I don't have an exact
15 recollection of it, sir.
16 Q Do you have any other recollections of any of the
17 other tapes having anybody else present?
18 A Other than those two, no, sir.
19 Q At least 60, perhaps 59 -- I take it back.
20 At least 59, and perhaps 60 tapes were made
21 without anybody from the postal inspectors or the United
22 States governme
nts being present with you; is that right?
23 A That is correct, sir. 24 Q The only way they know that 61 tapes were made is 25 because you told them you made 61?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5585 Watstein-recross/Geduldig
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q If 67 tapes were made and you mailed in 61, they
3 would only know about the 61 you sent them?
4 A It would be an accurate statement, sir.
5 Q If you made several calls on a particular day to
6 individual of, individuals of Who's Who Worldwide, and
7 only reported back one or two conversations, they wouldn't
8 know otherwise; is that right?
9 A The context of what you are saying, yes, sir.
10 Q Did you ever speak to an individual named Liz
11 Sautter?
12 A The name doesn't ring a bell, sir.
13 Q Did you ever speak to an individual named Debbie
14 Benjamin?
15 A I am not sure, sir.
16 Q Do you know that name?
17 A It doesn't ring a bell.
18 Q You never found any information which exculpated
19 either Liz Sautter or Debbie Benjamin in any way during
20 your investigation of Who's Who Worldwide; did you?
21 MR. WHITE: Objection.
22 THE COURT: Sustained.
23 Q Mr. Watstein, did you ever lie to any of the 24 employees who were working for you when you were running 25 your Who's Who operation?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5586 Watstein-recross/Geduldig
1 A I am sure I did.
2 Q Did you ever misrepresent to them the policies of
3 your company?
4 A I am sure I must have over a period of time.
5 Q Did you ever tell them that things were going on when
6 they were not, a selection committee?
7 A I think the employees were pretty much aware that
8 the
re was not a selection committee.
9 Q It wasn't my question?
10 A I am sorry.
11 Q My question is: Did you ever tell your employees
12 that, for instance, there was a selection committee when
13 there was not?
14 A No.
15 Q You never did that?
16 A They understood it, sir. It was common knowledge.
17 Q Did you ever tell them that there were things in
18 place in your company that were not in place as far as
19 policy and operation?
20 A It is possible, yes, sir.
21 MR. GEDULDIG: No other questions.
22 THE COURT: Anybody else?
23 24 25
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5587 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 RECROSS EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. NEVILLE:
3 Q Hi, Mr. Grimaldi.
4 MR. WHITE: Objection.
5 THE COURT: Yes. Sustained.
6 Mr. Neville, do you have any questions
you want
7 to ask?
8 MR. NEVILLE: Yes, your Honor.
9 THE COURT: Ask the questions and none of this
10 editorializing.
11 MR. NEVILLE: Yes, sir.
12 THE COURT: Because I am going to stop you.
13 MR. NEVILLE: I apologize, your Honor.
14 Q Mr. West, can we look at Government Exhibit 1308-A,
15 please. Mr. White asked you some questions about that on
16 his redirect examination?
17 THE COURT: What number was that, Mr. Neville?
18 MR. NEVILLE: 1308-A, your Honor.
19 Q Now, do you remember Mr. White was asking you about
20 the way Mr. Michaelson was answering your questions as far
21 as getting into the registry, and you were alluding to the
22 relative ease you were able to get into the registry?
23 A Would you repeat the question, sir? 24 Q No. I will withdraw it and try it again. 25 A Thank you.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OF
FICIAL COURT REPORTER
5588 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 Q Look at page 2, in fact, the spot that Mr. White had
2 pointed out, where you say about close to the middle of
3 the page, Scott, hi, my name is Ed Grimaldi, do you see
4 that?
5 A One second, sir.
6 Q Yes.
7 You say I got a letter from Cathy, in the summer,
8 umm, that I was accepted from Who's Who. Do you see that?
9 A No.
10 Q It is right along the same sentence, the same
11 attribution?
12 A Yes, sir, I do.
13 Q You told Scott Michaelson that you got a letter?
14 A Uh-huh.
15 Q So Scott Michaelson is hearing you say you got a
16 letter, right?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q So, as far as Scott Michaelson is concerned or knows,
19 you received a letter, and as far as he is concerned or
20 knows, you are a possible candidate for his registry; is
21 tha
t correct?
22 A An accurate statement, sir.
23 Q You go on in the same attribution and you say, you 24 sent in a form, you sent in a follow up, and nothing ever 25 happened. Do you see where you said that?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5589 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q And Scott says, they never called you back to
3 interview you? You see where Scott said that?
4 A Yes.
5 Q So Scott is thinking after you tell him you are a
6 legitimate guy who got something in the mail from Who's
7 Who Worldwide, right?
8 A I don't know what Scott is thinking, sir.
9 Q Well, by the things you say to him, you are trying to
10 show this jury, the judge, Mr. White, what Scott
11 Michaelson is thinking?
12 MR. WHITE: Objection.
13 Q Not you?
14 THE COURT: Sustained.
15 Q Isn't part of the
whole reason why you are here and
16 why this jury is listening to the tape, so they can
17 understand or think they can understand what Scott
18 Michaelson was thinking the day he was talking to you?
19 MR. WHITE: Objection.
20 THE COURT: Sustained.
21 Q Go to page 5, sir, about two-thirds of the way down
22 the page, where Scott says, no, we have about 3,000
23 requests each month for inclusion. We only accept about 24 1,000 new members. Do you see that? 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5590 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 Q Can you understand the difference between a request
2 for inclusion and someone who actually becomes a member?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q Is that a concept you can grasp?
5 A I think I can grasp the concept, sir.
6 Q Can you grasp the idea that there can be any number
7 of idea
s why 5,000 out of the 6,000 may not be accepted,
8 those requests?
9 A I am sure there are a number of reasons why they
10 would not be accepted, if that were true.
11 Q For example, one of the salespeople wouldn't be able
12 to reach on the telephone a potential member, a
13 prospective member, is that possible?
14 A Mathematically possible.
15 Q Mathematically or otherwise possible?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q How about if a card was sent in without the correct
18 information so the salesman could not contact the person?
19 A Possible.
20 Q How about if a card was sent in without the correct
21 phone number on it, is it then difficult for the
22 salesperson to contact the individual?
23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q Possible? 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5591 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 Q Finally if someone wasn't qualified, right?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q So there could be any number of reasons why those
4 proportions could absolutely positively be accurate,
5 right?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q And let me ask you this: Do you know how Scott
8 Michaelson came to those mathematical proportions?
9 A No, sir.
10 Q Do you know how Scott Michaelson came to say that to
11 you on the telephone?
12 A No, sir.
13 Q Do you know whether or not Scott Michaelson was
14 somewhere in the back room counting up nomination cards?
15 A No, sir.
16 Q Do you know whether or not somebody else told Scott
17 Michaelson those proportions?
18 A I have no idea, sir.
19 Q You don't know, do you?
20 A No, sir.
21 Q The other part that Mr. White was talking to you
22 about your conversation with Scott, is where you were
23 talking about drop
ping the unit of sale, one of your 24 highfalutin expressions. Do you remember saying that? 25 MR. WHITE: Objection.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5592 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 THE COURT: Yes.
2 MR. NEVILLE: Where was the highfalutin.
3 Q Dropping the units of sale, do you remember saying
4 that?
5 A Repeat the question.
6 Q Do you recall Mr. White was asking you questions
7 where you described a sales technique of dropping the unit
8 of sale?
9 A Yes.
10 Q You remember that?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Let's go to page 6 -- pardon me, page 7.
13 A The pages are not numbered, sir, is that the next
14 page?
15 Q The seventh page.
16 A One second, sir.
17 Q You can count.
18 Now, you see the attributions to Scott, five
19 attributions down from the top, where Scott says,
okay,
20 and what does the company do, Mr. Grimaldi? Do you see
21 where Scott said that to you, Mr. West?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q And what do you say? Read it? 24 A Umm, we are, umm, a beauty parlor. 25 Q Read what Scott says after that, nice and slowly?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5593 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 A Okay, umm, beauty parlor. They really -- I don't
2 think they would put that into the registry. The only
3 thing they would offer, they would give you a, like a two
4 year duration there. Because a beauty parlor really
5 can't, really benefit from the networking in the
6 registry.
7 Q Let me ask you this, Mr. West: What is to prevent
8 Scott Michaelson from still trying to sell you a lifetime
9 membership for $750 or whatever?
10 A Good sales judgment.
11 Q Maybe because you are not eligib
le? How about that?
12 A I can't comment on that, sir.
13 Q And what is to prevent Scott Michaelson from not just
14 going with that previous price he told you about, the $250
15 membership?
16 A Good sales judgment.
17 Q He didn't do it, did he?
18 A That's right.
19 Q In fact, when you read that attribution to Scott, he
20 slows down, the wind is taken out of sales on this, isn't
21 it?
22 A I can't respond with a yes, sir or no.
23 Q He puts the brakes on, doesn't he? 24 A I can't answer yes or no. 25 Q You teach people to do sales presentations for the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5594 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 big bank in Philadelphia?
2 A No, sir.
3 Q You stopped doing it?
4 A No, sir.
5 Q You know how it works, the salesmanship on the phone,
6 whether you do it fo
r a bank or the government, or
7 whatever?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q And when you told Scott that you are working in a
10 beauty parlor, you are the owner of a beauty parlor, do
11 you say that Scott's reaction to that is aggressive
12 salesmanship? Yes or no?
13 A No.
14 Q Okay.
15 Scott is essentially discouraging you from buying
16 a membership in the registry, yes or no?
17 A No.
18 Q If he is -- is it fair to say if Scott Michaelson
19 sell as lifetime membership for $750, he is going to get a
20 higher commission?
21 A Yes.
22 Q If he sells a three-year membership for whatever it
23 was, was he going to get you a higher commission from what 24 actually he was going to sell you? 25 A Yes, sir.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5595 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 Q Do you remember you
were saying you were not
2 interested in having people say anything here, when
3 Mr. White was asking you questions about how people
4 weren't being made to say answers to you based on your
5 questions; do you remember that?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q And how about the part where you say, right after
8 Scott talks about how you wouldn't benefit from the
9 networking in the registry, do you see that right smack in
10 the middle of the page, you say sure, we could? The
11 tables turn here, don't they, sir?
12 A I don't know what you mean.
13 Q You become the salesman, don't you, sir?
14 A Is that a question, sir?
15 Q Yes.
16 A No.
17 Q You say to Scott, sure, we can benefit from the
18 networking. This is you telling the salesman, you become
19 the salesman, don't you?
20 A No.
21 Q And then Scott says, he becomes the guy looking to be
22 sold to, and he says, umm, in what way?
23 Do you see that? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q Did I make that up or did Scott say that?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5596 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q You become the salesman?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q And then you say, did you ever hear of a female
5 executive? You said that, didn't you?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q And now there you are trying to suggest to Scott that
8 there could be some reason I guess -- tell me if I am
9 wrong, that ladies go to beauty salons, and lady
10 executives would go to a beauty salon, and that's how you
11 could network, is that what you meant by that?
12 A Exactly.
13 Q So, it was not Scott saying that to you so you could
14 buy the membership, it was you saying it to Scott so he
15 can sell you the membership, right, Mr.
West, sir?
16 THE COURT: Excuse me, Mr. Neville, you are
17 screaming and shouting into the microphone.
18 Please desist from doing that.
19 MR. NEVILLE: I am sorry.
20 A Would you repeat the question, sir?
21 Q Yes.
22 You became the salesman, right?
23 A No, sir. 24 Q And because you wanted Scott Michaelson to sell you 25 something that you and Marty Biegelman concocted that
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5597 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 shouldn't have been sold, right?
2 A No, sir.
3 Q And Scott Michaelson says, after you say you are from
4 a beauty salon, Scott Michaelson says I don't think you
5 can really benefit from the networking, doesn't he,
6 doesn't he?
7 A He makes that statement, yes, sir.
8 Q He said, yes?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q And he is a salesman on the phone a
nd he is trying to
11 scam you according to you, Marty Biegelman and Ron White,
12 right?
13 MR. WHITE: Objection.
14 THE COURT: Sustained.
15 Q Right?
16 THE COURT: I sustained the objection,
17 Mr. Neville.
18 Q And since Scott Michaelson isn't giving you the
19 answers that you want for your Marty Biegelman
20 investigation, you start to try to talk him into it, don't
21 you?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 MR. WHITE: Objection. 24 THE COURT: Mr. White, if you intend to object, 25 please rise and speak up. I can barely hear you.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5598 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 Of course, you are in competition with someone
2 who is speaking somewhat louder than you are.
3 MR. WHITE: I will, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Unless you don't want to object at
5 all, than don't sta
nd up at all. Don't try to stand up,
6 and don't try to whisper which is what you are doing.
7 MR. WHITE: I will speak louder, your Honor.
8 Q Now, isn't it true, sir, once in a normal
9 situation -- withdrawn.
10 Can you agree with me that this was not a normal
11 situation?
12 A No, sir.
13 Q It was not a normal sales situation, was it?
14 A Exactly the opposite, it was a normal situation.
15 Q It was?
16 A Of course.
17 Q You were really Ed Grimaldi?
18 A No.
19 Q You were reeling Sid and Annette's salon?
20 A It is not the word as normally was defined.
21 Q You are sure your name is not Webster, but West?
22 MR. WHITE: Objection.
23 THE COURT: Not entirely good, but you did get up 24 three-quarters in your chair, which is a great advance. 25 The only thing I saw was your head before.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, C
M OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5599 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 MR. WHITE: Mr. Neville is wearing me out, your
2 Honor.
3 THE COURT: That may be. He has a right to
4 cross-examine in the style in which he is. And if he gets
5 a little bit loud, I will quiet him down, that's all.
6 All the lawyers have a particular method of
7 trying their case. I will let them do that until it
8 reaches a certain point.
9 MR. NEVILLE: In my case the method of madness;
10 is that right?
11 THE COURT: Are you going to be a while?
12 MR. NEVILLE: No. I am going to get out of here
13 pretty quick. Thank you.
14 Q Now, in this situation where you tell Scott you are a
15 salon owner, and he tells you you really wouldn't benefit
16 from the registry, there are a lot of normal people who
17 would have called up would have just decided they wouldn't
18 buy the r
egistry and hang up?
19 A He didn't say that, sir.
20 Q The salesman stopped trying to sell you something,
21 right?
22 A No, sir.
23 Q Scott Michaelson, the salesman, put the breaks on the 24 sale, and he said you really wouldn't benefit from the 25 registry sir?
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5600 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 A He said the networking, sir.
2 Q Right. But that was one of the whole theories behind
3 this?
4 A One of many theories, sir.
5 Q It is one of the ways that people were sold the
6 registry for networking, right?
7 A One of the many benefits, yes.
8 Q While you are standing there, fixing Barbara Walters'
9 hair at the salon, you would network with her, right?
10 Yes?
11 A If I was fixing Barbara Walters' hair, that would be
12 correct, yes.
13 Q Did yo
u ever look at one of these registries? If you
14 want, you might want to borrow my glasses.
15 A It might be necessary.
16 Q I am showing you Defendant's Exhibit Gordon
17 Exhibit P?
18 Now, if I am a big shot and want to be a lifetime
19 member I get to be put in the front of the book, right?
20 A That's what I am told, sir.
21 Q Then there is a spot in the back of the registry for
22 what is termed associate members?
23 A That was true in one or two of the registries, yes, 24 sir. 25 I don't want to use your glasses, thank you.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5601 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 Q You can. You won't get cooties, I don't think.
2 If you don't pay a premium you will get put in if
3 back of the book; is that right?
4 A I don't think it is an accurate statement the way
5 your client describ
ed it.
6 Q If you don't pay at all you can still be put in the
7 book as a listee; is that right?
8 A I don't know all the rules in the book.
9 Q You didn't care what the rules were, you wanted to
10 see if you can hook somebody to keep yourself out of
11 jail?
12 MR. WHITE: Objection.
13 THE COURT: Sustained.
14 Q The prospective buyer becomes the attempted seller in
15 this case; isn't that a fact, sir?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q We will see if the jury buys it.
18 A Yes, sir.
19 MR. WHITE: Objection.
20 THE COURT: Sustained.
21 We will take a ten-minute recess, ladies and
22 gentlemen. Please do not discuss the case, ladies and
23 gentlemen. And please recess yourselves. 24 (Whereupon, at this time the jury left the 25 courtroom.)
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5602 Watstein-recross/
Neville
1
2 (Whereupon, a recess is taken.)
3
4 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, the next one is
5 Exhibit 1360. The tape is 1360-A. The date is December
6 19th, 1994. It is a call to Who's Who Worldwide and Scott
7 Michaelson.
8 (Tape is played.)
9 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, the next one is Exhibit
10 1371. The transcript is 1371-A. The date is February
11 3rd, 1995. It is a call to Sterling Who's Who. The
12 salesperson is Pat Brent, B R E N T.
13 (Tape is played.)
14 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I know you said there was
15 one day this week we were going to break early. Is it
16 today?
17 THE COURT: No, tomorrow.
18 THE COURT: All right.
19 The next one is 1300, the transcript is 1300-A.
20 The date is August 12th, 1994. A call to Who's Who
21 Worldwide and Scott Michaelson.
22 (Tape is begun.)
23 THE COURT: It is ve
ry low, Mr. White. 24 MR. WHITE: I will try to turn it up. 25 THE COURT: All right.
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5603 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 (Tape is begun again.)
2 THE COURT: It is still very low.
3 MR. WHITE: Let me see if I can adjust it.
4 THE COURT: Right.
5 (Whereupon, at this time there was a pause in the
6 proceedings.)
7 MR. WHITE: We will play 1324. The transcript is
8 1324 A. The date is November 10th, 1994. The call is to
9 Who's Who Worldwide and Laura Winters.
10 (Tape is played.)
11 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we are going to
12 recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
13 Please do not discuss the case even among
14 yourselves or anyone else. Keep an open mind. Come to no
15 conclusions.
16 We will recess until 9:30.
17 Have a nice evening.
18 (Whereupo
n, at this time the jury leaves the
19 courtroom.)
20 THE COURT: What is going to happen tomorrow,
21 Mr. White?
22 MR. WHITE: Tomorrow we have Mr. Skonie and
23 Mr. Safer. 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, there was something I
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5604 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 wanted to take up, and your Honor indicated I could do
2 it.
3 THE COURT: Yes.
4 MR. TRABULUS: There is something else which is
5 briefer, and I would like to address that.
6 I learned from an answer that Mr. West gave, that
7 the government has far more transcripts than they
8 furnished to us.
9 Now, Mr. West said he had looked through all 61
10 of the transcripts -- transcripts of all 61 telephone
11 conversations. Mr. White informed me they don't have
12 transcripts of all
of them. But apparently there are some
13 which were not given over to us. And I had thought all
14 transcripts that the government had had been given over to
15 us. And I thought under Rule 16 we were entitled to them,
16 and they were demanded.
17 Indeed, when we entered into the stipulation
18 which I entered into with respect to some defense
19 exhibits, I thought we had all the transcripts with the
20 tapes. Now I learn we do not. I will ask for all the
21 transcripts the government prepared.
22 It may save a lot of time.
23 THE COURT: Do you have other transcripts? 24 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, Mr. West is mistaken. I 25 can't account for his answer. He may have reviewed all
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5605 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 the tapes, he did not review all the transcripts because
2 we don't have 61.
3 There are partial transcripts of a lot of them, I
4 think 40 or 50 of them, which is what is in evidence,
5 brief snippets or experts of them.
6 THE COURT: How about the tape recordings
7 themselves, do the defendants have those?
8 MR. WHITE: Yes, your Honor, they have had that
9 for over a year.
10 MR. TRABULUS: Except for the ones which we got
11 on Friday.
12 MR. WHITE: Right. Which are not the 61 we were
13 talking about.
14 THE COURT: There are no other transcripts
15 Mr. Trabulus.
16 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, Mr. White led us to
17 believe there are some transcripts he had not given to us
18 because he did not intend to introduce them.
19 MR. WHITE: When did Mr. White indicate that to
20 you? You asked me lunchtime and I told you Mr. West was
21 mistaken. There are not 61 transcripts.
22 MR. TRABULUS: I thought, your Honor, whe
n
23 Mr. White asked me to give him a number of the tape he 24 wanted to play and he would give me a transcript if there 25 is one. If he gave me all the transcripts, fine, it
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5606 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 wasn't the tenor of our conversation. Apparently there
2 was a misunderstanding in our conversation.
3 THE COURT: Apparently there was a confusion
4 there. He now states there are no other transcripts.
5 MR. WHITE: Let me clarify this, your Honor.
6 Aside from what the defendants have been given --
7 may I have a moment? I want to make sure that the answer
8 is accurate, because apparently it is in issue.
9 (Mr. White confers with Inspector Pagano.)
10 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, the ones given to the
11 defendants were all the ones we have, except with the
12 exception of one thing. Ther
e was some portion of
13 previously untranscribed tapes that a week or two before
14 trial we sent to a service to do some of them. I don't
15 know if we got any of those back yet, if it is done. Off
16 the top of my head I can't tell you that.
17 THE COURT: Which tapes are those?
18 MR. WHITE: Some of the 61.
19 THE COURT: When you say you sent them to a
20 service, when did you send them to a service?
21 MR. WHITE: I believe it was shortly before
22 trial. It was to help us to prepare final transcripts of
23 certain excerpts of certain tapes. 24 THE COURT: You must -- if you gave it to them 25 six weeks ago, it is assumed that they concluded their
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5607 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 work. If not, would you please find out where those
2 transcripts are? You say you have not gotten them?
3 MR. WHITE: I don't know, your Honor. We
4 obviously have been here everyday.
5 THE COURT: Here means if something came
6 somewhere else it would not be given to you?
7 MR. WHITE: It would be back at the postal
8 inspector's office.
9 THE COURT: Ask the postal inspector for it.
10 Tell him to see to it, and get it done. It should have
11 been done a long time ago.
12 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I made it crystal clear
13 from the start that the government was not going to
14 transcribe every tape.
15 THE COURT: But the government did transcribe
16 some tapes, correct?
17 MR. WHITE: Some tapes, yes, some tapes.
18 THE COURT: Bring them in.
19 MR. WHITE: If there are any that are not
20 previously given to the defense you say.
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 MR. WHITE: I want to make it clear that the
23 defendants have had the tapes all alon
g. It is not a 24 matter of -- 25 THE COURT: I understand. If you have
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5608 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 transcripts bring it in, the transcripts other than the
2 ones in evidence.
3 MR. WHITE: Yes, I will. I don't know if we do,
4 but I will look.
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I would like to now
7 turn to the tapes which were turned over to us on Friday.
8 Before I was involved in this case, I understand
9 there were specific requests by defense counsel for all
10 the transcripts of all the tapes.
11 THE COURT: What tapes now?
12 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, last Friday, Mr. White
13 turned over to us tapes that -- if I can recall what he
14 said, he said that these tapes had apparently been kept
15 with the tapes from the Oxford Who's Who investigation.
16 But these tapes pertain to Who's Who Worldwide as well.
17 What he also turned over to us is some tapes from
18 the Oxford Who's Who investigation.
19 What I got, and I believe each defense counsel
20 who took one, got, was nine cassette tapes.
21 Of those nine cassette tapes there were five that
22 bore the date 12/8/92. And those 12/8/92 tapes were
23 interviews that Mr. Watstein conducted of people, almost 24 exclusively former employees of Who's Who Worldwide. And 25 there was at least one interview of an Oxford person
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5609 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 there. The vast majority were Who's Who Worldwide people.
2 THE COURT: What were these interviews about?
3 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, similar to the
4 interview you heard of Mr. Martin, and briefly a portion
5 of this Lady Regina was pl
ayed.
6 It is part of the process where Mr. Watstein was
7 looking to hire people to work in a new Who's Who.
8 THE COURT: So, this was another interview
9 session?
10 MR. TRABULUS: Yes. And it preceded the
11 interview session at which Mr. Martin was interviewed.
12 THE COURT: Who was interviewed?
13 MR. TRABULUS: Well, the names are not entirely
14 clear. But there were some I would get, a Mr. Friedman, a
15 former Who's Who employee. A gentleman by the name of
16 Larry. I don't know his last name.
17 Richard Jacobs, or Jacols, or Jay. It is hard to
18 tell from the tape. We don't have the transcript, I don't
19 know their names. There was some women and I don't know
20 their names.
21 Significantly, your Honor, some of these tapes
22 contain information which at the least would be considered
23 favorable to the defense, and in other instances
24 exculpatory, particularly as to the salespeople. And 25 particularly Mr. Gordon and the corporations, not only
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5610 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 exculpatory, but quite relevant to issues which should
2 have been fully addressed at the suppression hearing, the
3 Franks hearing but could not be born with respect to the
4 information the postal inspectors had at the time they
5 prepared the affidavit with respect to the search
6 warrants.
7 I didn't have a transcript. I am not a tape
8 recorder in my head, and I can't repeat everything on the
9 tapes. But I can tell you that this Mr. Friedman, for
10 example, who was interviewed, said some things which I
11 think were quite significant.
12 He said in response to questions by Mr. West, you
13 would be surprised or amazed how many people actuall
y used
14 the book, referring to the registry. And he explained --
15 this was before the CD-ROM was in existence.
16 He explained people would call up and asking for
17 public affairs. And there was some discussion as to
18 whether there was a public affairs office or not. And
19 Mr. Friedman said --
20 THE COURT: Mr. Friedman was a Who's Who employee
21 at that time?
22 MR. TRABULUS: I can't tell. I believe
23 Mr. Friedman was no longer a Who's Who employee, because 24 he thought he wasn't paid everything he felt he was 25 entitled to be paid.
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5611 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 THE COURT: What was he referring to people
2 calling up? Calling what company?
3 MR. TRABULUS: Calling Who's Who Worldwide. And
4 he said people used the book and they called up and asked
5 for pu
blic affairs and they were put in touch with other
6 members, other members who can, and then they can network
7 in that way.
8 When asked what kind of criticism he had for the
9 pitch he was given, his criticism was with the fact that
10 it had run on sentences, and things of that nature. He
11 indicated that it was a good pitch. He didn't see any
12 lies.
13 This man was --
14 THE COURT: I don't understand how that is going
15 to help you as of this time in this trial. It perhaps
16 furnishes witnesses.
17 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.
18 THE COURT: Which you can, if you desire to use,
19 that is up to you, but I don't know where that can hurt
20 you at this time in this trial.
21 MR. TRABULUS: It may be the tapes are not
22 admissible because of the hearsay exception. If we had
23 them early on, we could find these people and call them as 24 witness
es. 25 THE COURT: You know who they are now?
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5612 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 MR. TRABULUS: I know the last name Friedman, is
2 the first name Larry.
3 THE COURT: That's all you would have known three
4 months ago.
5 MR. TRABULUS: Three months ago I might have been
6 able to find --
7 THE COURT: I think I found chits for you to have
8 an investigator, or somebody had one.
9 MR. TRABULUS: There has been an investigator.
10 THE COURT: Send them out.
11 MR. TRABULUS: There still is an investigator.
12 The point of the matter is another one of these
13 people talked how they weeded out a lot of these names and
14 were selected. This was a salesperson.
15 I am talking now specifically about the
16 suppressions motion, your Honor. Where the complaint, the
17 affidavit
in support of the search warrant, where it
18 indicated that the informant that Mr. Biegelman spoke to
19 said everyone gets accepted, 99 percent, and he made no
20 mention of anything along this line.
21 THE COURT: You have a right to make a motion to
22 suppress at any time.
23 MR. TRABULUS: What I would like to do, and I 24 can't lay it all out here, is renew the original motion to 25 suppress.
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5613 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 THE COURT: You better give me something in
2 writing, Mr. Trabulus.
3 MR. TRABULUS: Obviously, this is not a
4 particularly good time for me to be working on briefs.
5 THE COURT: If this evidence is -- it certainly
6 could not negate probable cause if there is overwhelming
7 evidence to the contrary. We are talking probable cause.
8 MR. TRABULUS: Yes, a
nd Franks.
9 THE COURT: Whether it is more likely true than
10 not true.
11 MR. TRABULUS: At this point the evidence which
12 would have been suppressed has more than likely come in in
13 this trial.
14 THE COURT: If that is a mistake you have all
15 kinds of grounds.
16 MR. TRABULUS: But I would have to make a record
17 with regard to this.
18 THE COURT: All right.
19 MR. TRABULUS: So, I would ask your Honor if I
20 would be permitted, since the Court has the power to defer
21 decisions on a suppression motion until after the trial,
22 if I can be timely --
23 THE COURT: If you wish for me to do it, I will 24 do it. 25 MR. TRABULUS: At the time I would get any papers
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5614 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 together, and considering a not guilty motion -- verdict
2 would obviate the motion in any event, that I would ask to
3 deem it a suppression to motion and submit the papers
4 after trial.
5 THE COURT: It is a fair request, and your
6 request to submit the motion is now made orally, and I
7 will permit you to affect it after the trial. You can
8 join it with the judgment that used to be called
9 notwithstanding the verdict -- judgment for acquittal.
10 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.
11 THE COURT: Motion for judgment of acquittal.
12 MR. TRABULUS: The 29 motion.
13 THE COURT: Yes.
14 MR. TRABULUS: We don't have the addresses of
15 some of these people.
16 THE COURT: Let's find out if the government has
17 some of these addresses.
18 Maybe the famous Inspector Biegelman knows where
19 the addresses are? I have not seen him, but maybe he is
20 around somewhere.
21 Has he left the employ of the government,
22 Mr. White?
23 MR. TRABULUS: He testified for a thousand pages 24 at the suppression hearing? 25 MR. WHITE: No, your Honor, Inspector Biegelman
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5615 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 is since transferred to California.
2 THE COURT: All right. I see.
3 MR. WHITE: Inspector Biegelman was not involved
4 in the making of the tapes here. It was Inspector
5 Leonard.
6 THE COURT: Inspector Biegelman did such a
7 thorough job that he impressed the Second Circuit with
8 evidence he received after I made my decision. An unusual
9 thing. They used that to send the case back. Most
10 unusual.
11 MR. WHITE: That's correct, your Honor, but Judge
12 Nickerson --
13 THE COURT: However, that's the law of the case.
14 I would like you to ask the inspectors whether
15 they know
where this Friedman is, and so forth. Give them
16 a list of the all the names of the people you want, and I
17 am directing the government if they have this information
18 to produce it.
19 MR. WHITE: I have asked for it already and I am
20 awaiting an answer.
21 THE COURT: With such efficiency, I would imagine
22 they would have all of that.
23 MR. WHITE: If they have it. It wasn't very 24 efficient to put these in the wrong file, but they were. 25 That I can't control.
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5616 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 MR. WHITE: I point out one other thing.
3 Mr. Trabulus' recitation of what these tapes
4 contain suggest that this is somehow some blatantly
5 exculpatory information.
6 I point out that there is a whole series of
7 interviews of ex-Who's Who Worldwid
e employees, including
8 one or two where the employees openly acknowledge where
9 the script is full of lies and a whole bunch of garbage
10 and anything else.
11 THE COURT: Mr. Trabulus is not interested in
12 that.
13 MR. WHITE: I know he is not.
14 THE COURT: You may be, but he is not. He is
15 interested in what will help his side.
16 THE COURT: How unusual.
17 MR. WHITE: I understand. I am requesting --
18 THE COURT: Give him the information of all the
19 people he is trying to hide.
20 MR. WHITE: When I heard the tapes last week I
21 made the request and I am trying to find out that
22 information if the government has it.
23 THE COURT: If you don't have it, you will 24 represent as an Assistant United States Attorney and 25 officer of the Court that you don't have it. That's the
HARRY RAPAPORT, CSR, CP, CM OFFICIAL COURT RE
PORTER
5617 Watstein-recross/Neville
1 end of it. As soon as you tell me you don't have it,
2 that's the end of it.
3 MR. WHITE: I will find out the answer.
4 MR. TRABULUS: One other thing.
5 At the same time the subject of these tapes first
6 came up, I asked Mr. White whether in addition to the
7 tapes there was any 3500 material relating to Mr. West
8 that was associated with the tapes. And he said it was on
9 his way -- on its way. If there was any. I don't know if
10 he is referring to the same thing he just said he
11 requested or not.
12 MR. WHITE: That is exactly what I am talking about.
13 THE COURT: My remarks today in no way take away
14 from the fact that the government I feel has done an
15 extraordinary job in giving discovery. They have been
16 completely candid in my opinion, and have produced
17 everything possible that th
ey can produce.
18 However, if there is new material or something
19 Mr. White doesn't know about, we are going to get it.
20 This is one of those times.
21 Anything else, Mr. Trabulus?
22 MR. TRABULUS: Nothing else, your Honor.
23 THE COURT: 9:30 tomorrow morning. 24 (Case on trial adjourned until 9:30 o'clock a.m., 25 Wednesday, February 25, 1998.)
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5618
1 I-N-D-E-X
2 W-I-T-N-E-S-S-E-S 3 PAGE LINE 4 S T E V E N W A T S T E I N................. 5418 3 REDIRECT EXAMINATION (cont'd).................... 5418 13 5 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION............................ 5448 5 REDIRECT EXAMINATION (cont'd).................... 5457 12 6 RECROSS-EXAMINATION.............................. 5460 18 RECROSS-EXAMINATION.............................. 5503 11 7 RECROSS-EXAMINATION.............................. 5
535 14 RECROSS-EXAMINATION.............................. 5555 16 8 RECROSS-EXAMINATION.............................. 5566 3 RECROSS EXAMINATION.............................. 5586 25 9
10 E-X-H-I-B-I-T-S
11 Government's Exhibit 1601 received in evidence... 5457 5 12 Government's Exhibit 1602 received in evidence... 5457 6 Government's Exhibit 1603 received in evidence... 5457 7 13 Government's Exhibit 1604 received in evidence... 5457 8 Government's Exhibit 1605 received in evidence... 5457 9 14 Government's Exhibit 1606 received in evidence... 5457 10
15 Defendant's Exhibit Q-1 received in evidence..... 5477 19 Defendant's Exhibit CA received in evidence...... 5531 18 16
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